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Andre Bolkonsky

Gazing up at the blue, blue sky
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Feb 28, 2002
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Or, perhaps not.

It seems a little slow around here so I thought perhaps a wildly inaccurate thesis sentence would fix that.

Please discuss. Or list your own WWII foible of reality v. perception.
 
I've never had the chance to operate or watch them in real life :( so my experience is soley based on using them in games ,especially in War Thunder :p One thing that annoys me about this tank is it's horrible reverse speed. Other german tanks aren't as bad and even older models like Panzer IIIs have actually a reasonable reverse speed ,but on the other hand Panthers despite having great speed are so bad in this case as if it is intentional ?!
 
I like the Panther, mostly its agility, which to me is reminiscent of German war culture. German war culture places high importance on mobility and staying power, both qualities that the Panthers offer in abundance. I used many Panthers during my Company of Heroes playing days, but like my preferred card game strategy of tempo instead of control or rush, I preferred the Axis medium tanks more. I had much fun using the Panther when playing against turtlers though.
 
Wasn't the Panther too complex? Sure, it was good when it was out in the field, but you have to build the thing too and keep it working in the field. The T-34 seems more like a war-winner to me, or the M1A2 Abrams.
 
Wasn't the Panther too complex? Sure, it was good when it was out in the field, but you have to build the thing too and keep it working in the field.

Panzerkampfwagen V Panther. . . 60% of the time . . . It works every time.
 
Overated and a failure.
It needed PZ IV escorts........

The only saving grace was its excellent gun.
 
I summon the powers of Military History Visualized!
The best way to describe the Panther was an excellent combat tank on frontlines where the Third Reich was facing against numerous tanks such as the Shermans or the T-34s. However, it's obvious drawbacks was its reliability and technical flaws.
 
In the end the main difference between German tanks and allied tanks was that allied built factories optimized to mass produce tanks, Detroit tank arsenal built more tanks than the whole german industry and still only produced like 25-33% of the total amount of tanks that USA built during the war.

To reach such massive numbers, the plant was built during the early 40s and have thousands of machines designed to automatize pretty much Everything in the production while the german tank production was using outdated manual work. A machine driven factory can produce much more at a higher quality than what humans can do.

If USA produced Panther tanks and Germany produced Shermans, the result would be the same and without all the problems germany had, the american Panthers would likely be of a significant higher quality.

Like warfare, production require massive amount of planing to be the most effective.
 
Wasn't the Panther too complex? Sure, it was good when it was out in the field, but you have to build the thing too and keep it working in the field. The T-34 seems more like a war-winner to me, or the M1A2 Abrams.
The Panther was complex but all tank models got complexer by every year be it German, Russian or American.
Now Imagine the Panther had came up in 1932, they could easily give it another 2 years of test and trial. This was imposible at the time the Panther was needed.

What they really screwed up is wanting to replace all PZ IV production with the Panther which sounds good on paper but was a mess and lead to the retooling of several factories often TRICE !!! and also lead to a horrible gap in 1943 where the tanks been needed most.
 
Detroit tank arsenal built more tanks than the whole german industry
It did not, it build less than half of the German industry, which is still an impressive feat.
Being undisturbed by bombers helps of course and thats why Germans and British had to build their factories different.

If you look for the most efficient industry in ww2 tho look at the British.
 
In the end the main difference between German tanks and allied tanks was that allied built factories optimized to mass produce tanks, Detroit tank arsenal built more tanks than the whole german industry and still only produced like 25-33% of the total amount of tanks that USA built during the war.

To reach such massive numbers, the plant was built during the early 40s and have thousands of machines designed to automatize pretty much Everything in the production while the german tank production was using outdated manual work. A machine driven factory can produce much more at a higher quality than what humans can do.

If USA produced Panther tanks and Germany produced Shermans, the result would be the same and without all the problems germany had, the american Panthers would likely be of a significant higher quality.

Like warfare, production require massive amount of planing to be the most effective.
I wouldn't be that certain about the 2nd last bit.

You still needed the necessary rail infrastructure (e.g. rail carts with the necessary width) for transporting those vehicles to the coastal ports (either the Atlantic or Pacific) and have not only the ship capacity, but also the suitable type of cargo ship and/or amount of shipping capacity with which to transport those implements of war across the Atlantic and Pacific towards the front - along with their ammunition and spare parts - and in enough numbers to be tactically viable once they get there.

There is also the problem of providing ongoing maintenance support for those vehicles. The Germans and Soviets when dealing with heavily damaged yet salvageable tanks had the ability of simply towing those vehicles back onto train carts to be repaired back at the factory, or simply discarded and replaced with another tank as was frequently the case with the Soviets. With US tanks the idea of putting damaged tanks back onto ships and having them repaired back at the factory, all the way back in Detroit, was impractical to say the least.

That said, the Americans did finalize development and introduced their "equivalent" to the Panther (though to be fair it was much superior to it in almost every regard) by the end of the war on Europe. Yet even then, like the Sherman before it had to undergo a lengthy development cycle to ensure that it was not only tactically suitable, but operationally as well - being as reliable as the Sherman to reduce need for maintenance as well as being of the right size and tonnage to me transported by existing infrastructure (i.e. to fit on a rail car, light enough to be lifted onto ships by existing port cranes and so on so forth).

Overated and a failure.
It needed PZ IV escorts........

The only saving grace was its excellent gun.
You're right there.

I read that the gun, although great in an anti-tank role, was rather lacking in an infantry support role due the lack of filler they were able to put into the tank shells (a similar issue faced with ammunition used by Allied 76 mm and 17 pdr guns). Also something about friendly infantry being concussed by the muzzle blast whenever the thing fired off a round.

So basically it needed other tanks such as the Pzkpfw III (the TD variants primarily that is) & IV to act in a infantry support role whilst Panthers or Tigers acted in an anti-armor one for them. Somewhat similar to how American 76 mm and British 17 pdr armed tanks operated in a mobile anti-armor role, covering the more conventionally armed 75 mm armed tanks more suited for supporting those unfortunate footsloggers.

Even so, It was still a rather fiiine looking hunk of steel ...( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)...
 
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It did not, it build less than half of the German industry, which is still an impressive feat.
Being undisturbed by bombers helps of course and thats why Germans and British had to build their factories different.

If you look for the most efficient industry in ww2 tho look at the British.

Having access to raw materials helps also... AFAIK the Germans lacked quite a few alloying elements which forced them to use more lower quality steel, which lead to a problem that they lacked iron ore too (and they needed coal for something else).
 
Having access to raw materials helps also... AFAIK the Germans lacked quite a few alloying elements which forced them to use more lower quality steel, which lead to a problem that they lacked iron ore too (and they needed coal for something else).
Yes and things like that drag down the quality of the german war machine. A how good a tank is depend not only on the tank itself but on pretty much Everything. The german army was at its best in 1939 to end of 1941 which was Before they had Panthers and Tigers.
 
As was pointed out in previous posts, Germany was suffering from shortages of numerous critical materials, so the original design of the Panther had to be modified to use less specialty metals and other rare materials. On top of that, the complex helical gear systems for the transmission and final drives were simplified for faster production, leading to significantly higher stress on the gears, which were now of lower grade materials. Enlarging everything to spread out the stress added to overall weight, and required down-sizing or moving other components to make room for the larger assemblies. Hitler also had to put in his two cents, boosting the frontal armor beyond what the chassis had been designed to support. The resulting compromises pretty much guaranteed reliability problems.

Worse, the Panthers were primarily issued to freshly raised divisions, meaning that the veteran tankers who had the skill and experience to handle the Panther with all of its weaknesses were left with their Panzer IVs, and the freshly trained rookies with no combat experience were put into the more demanding machines. The results were predictable, and the Panther under-performed against Allied armor.

In spite of all that, it was still rather impressive, when it worked. If Germany had time to work out the bugs, and had the materials to built it as was originally intended, it might have been an excellent tank. With all of the changes and compromises, it was a mixed bag of good and bad points. Allied and Axis doctrines differed substantially, so while tanks such as the Sherman were well designed for what the US intended to use them for, the Panther was designed for what the Germans intended to use it for, NOT for what the Allies would do. The criticisms of the Sherman are usually likewise, blaming it for not being a good tank by German standards.

The ammo issue has been over-emphasized. British tanks had problems with HE rounds for the high-velocity gun, resulting in thicker shell walls and significantly reduced explosive power. The German HE rounds had much less of a problem, and maintained nearly the same explosive power as the medium-velocity gun ammunition. Since the Allied tanks were primarily intended to support infantry, and the German tanks primarily designed to engage other tanks, the importance of the problem was far higher for the Allied tanks.
 
The criticisms of the Sherman are usually likewise, blaming it for not being a good tank by German standards.
This is a critical thing indeed and very true. For example likewise Japanese tanks get critics for being bad at European battlefields.
 
It took a few years to iron out the problems with the tank designs. Sherman in 1942 or t-34 in 1941 was quite lackluster but their 1944 version was pretty good for what they was designed for. Panther was probably designed too late and probably too rushed to be a good tank, maybe if it had started its production in 1944-45 it could have been alot better but Germany was in a very bad position in 1943 and did not have the time to get the designs right. By 1945 stuff like Pershing was perhaps what Panther could have been but by 1945 it is simply too late.

The early tanks Germany had such as Panzer III and IV was quite good for their time, not because they had the more firepower or armor but because they worked well with the german doctrine had used innovations such as radio on majority of their tanks but by 1944-45 the german armored force had probably fallen behind in usefulness as a combat tool compared to allied armored forces but this was pretty much inevitable.
 
It took a few years to iron out the problems with the tank designs. Sherman in 1942 or t-34 in 1941 was quite lackluster but their 1944 version was pretty good for what they was designed for. Panther was probably designed too late and probably too rushed to be a good tank, maybe if it had started its production in 1944-45 it could have been alot better but Germany was in a very bad position in 1943 and did not have the time to get the designs right. By 1945 stuff like Pershing was perhaps what Panther could have been but by 1945 it is simply too late.

The early tanks Germany had such as Panzer III and IV was quite good for their time, not because they had the more firepower or armor but because they worked well with the german doctrine had used innovations such as radio on majority of their tanks but by 1944-45 the german armored force had probably fallen behind in usefulness as a combat tool compared to allied armored forces but this was pretty much inevitable.

Germany had a head start in the armaments cycle, so they had all metal monoplane fighter as well as modern medium tanks and effective light tanks in numbers by 1939 (plus minus 1 year). On the other hand it meant that they had the production facilities for these chassis/airframes which were clearly outclassed by the Allied rivals from 1941/42. Thus the Germans must carry out a generation change midway in the war and in the middle of resource shortage (like the Panzer IVJ was a downgrade from Panzer IVH, but that is what they could build from the components available) to get some edge.
 
Still the PZ IV was a very solid design.
The project started in 1934 and the tank could fight reasonable untill 1945 (altough obsoleting rapidly now) with several upgrades possible.
Hands of my favorite German tank design of that era.