The potential fate of Emperor Puyi

[Sunforged General]

The Last Emperor of China, Emperor Puyi was turned into a puppet by the Japanese to be a figure head of their puppet state of Manchukuo. But had the Japanese won their war in china, what was their intention for Puyi? He wasn't exactly popular among the Chinese. If the Japanese cant use him to rule the Chinese, do they just kill him off and rule with Martial Law? Or do you think they would have let him be the (Puppet) Ruler of all of China, even if the Chinese people did not want him?

 

[olm]

He would remain the official ruler of Manchukuo? There is little practical reason for Japanese to merge Manchukuo back into China, which presumably would be ruled by Wang Jingwei.

 

[Sunforged General]

He would remain the official ruler of Manchukuo? There is little practical reason for Japanese to merge Manchukuo back into China, which presumably would be ruled by Wang Jingwei.

I was thinking it may be easier to rule one puppet China under Puyi rather than 5-6 different puppet china states?

 

[Greenskyguy]

If the Japanese could establish a Raj style system, they may keep Puyi as a Mughal Emperor while maintaining other 'independent' states and protectorates.

 

[Herbert West]

I was thinking it may be easier to rule one puppet China under Puyi rather than 5-6 different puppet china states?

Harder, you mean. 5-6 vassals you can play of against each other is preferable to one vassal with many times your own pop.

 

[DarthJF]

Japanese had different plans for Manchukuo and China proper. Manchukuo was to become de facto Japanese colony that would be settled with Japanese colonists and run by Japanese "advisors" to the nominal Manchu government under Pu Yi.

In China proper they wanted a friendly government that was under Japanese economic and military dominance, but because of its size and much larger population, China proper couldn't be turned into a full scale colony the way Japanese intended to do in Manchuria.

 

[Yakman]

The Last Emperor of China, Emperor Puyi was turned into a puppet by the Japanese to be a figure head of their puppet state of Manchukuo. But had the Japanese won their war in china, what was their intention for Puyi? He wasn't exactly popular among the Chinese. If the Japanese cant use him to rule the Chinese, do they just kill him off and rule with Martial Law? Or do you think they would have let him be the (Puppet) Ruler of all of China, even if the Chinese people did not want him?

THE JAPanese plan was to create a series of puppet states in China. Had the Japanese smashed the Republic of China - or at least 'won' their war - Puyi would likely have remained their puppet monarch in Manchukuo. There would have been other puppets - as the Japanese actually did establish - throughout China.

 

[Yakman]

I was thinking it may be easier to rule one puppet China under Puyi rather than 5-6 different puppet china states?

no.

japan is small compared to china, and relatively far away from the vast interior. a rebellious client emperor would have tremendous advantages over a foreign overlord if he decided to get out of line.

look at what the British did in India - they used internal divisions to their advantage - if a single client king gets out of control, he can be smashed. multiple client kings would have to have coordinated to throw the British out, which was a challenge, since each had their own prerogatives.

a larger corps of diplomats is much cheaper than multiple corps of occupying soldiers.

 

[DarthJF]

Also, Pu Yi's function was never to legitimatise Japanese rule of Manchukuo to the Chinese population, but to the international community. Japanese military could suppress the population of Manchuria into submission, but internationally they needed to show that the conquest of Manchuria wasn't the naked land grab it was, so they set up the Manchu government that they had "liberated" from China.

 

[Kenttäharmaa]

a larger corps of diplomats is much cheaper than multiple corps of occupying soldiers.

Well said.

The ancient concept of divide and rule is something PDX games have never really modelled: in their games you generally want large, consolidated subjects, since keeping them in line is ridiculously easy. In real life that would never work.

 

[Roniius]

Japan would probably not have had Manchukuo and China unite. After all, for decades, Japan tried to somewhat "rewrite" the history of the Manchurian region. We can see this even in Inaba Kunzan's 1918 work's introduction (by another writer) - This introduction talks about Manchuria's history with the Khitans, the Jurchen, and the Manchu, but mentions the "Chinese" (Han) as some sort of outsider that, only recently, disrupted the historical path of Manchuria. We can see that Manchuria was set up from the start to be an independent (or, while not independent, autonomous) state under the Japanese. We can also see this in Japan's forcing of Manchukuo's citizens to take up the identity of "Manchu", and in the Koumin, the 1940 text used to train police officers - It celebrates the closeness of Manchuria to Japan (the Koguryo period and Manchuria's relationship with Heian and Nara Japan) and the Khitan and Liao ancestry of the Manchus. It does not even mention the Chinese at all.

Then we get on to Puyi (Datong/Kangde). Puyi served his job as a puppet. Throughout the course of Manchukuo's existence, Puyi had been made increasingly subordinate to the Japanese emperor. In 1940, he was even ritually reborn from the womb of Amaterasu, thus making him Emperor Showa's brother. His use was to make the Chinese into increasingly servile subjects, and using him worked.

There were then the other parts of China, under the Wang Jingwei Regime, which, initially, had even been split up. While Manchukuo was seen by the Japanese as a completely legitimate government, an empire grounded in history, Wang Jingwei's government was recognized by the Japanese as the legitimate government of China (not including Manchuria due to reasons stated above). Towards the end of the war, it was pretty much clear that China would at least have been split into two.

Japan's aims in China were not to have a strong China, either - Their main aims were simply economic. Divide and Conquer would haev been a very good tactic for them; They wouldn't lose much to achieve their goals of a massive captive market, a strong source of natural resources, and opportunity for Japanese corporate and political power to expand.

 

[Gordy]

The Last Emperor of China, Emperor Puyi was turned into a puppet by the Japanese to be a figure head of their puppet state of Manchukuo. But had the Japanese won their war in china, what was their intention for Puyi? He wasn't exactly popular among the Chinese. If the Japanese cant use him to rule the Chinese, do they just kill him off and rule with Martial Law? Or do you think they would have let him be the (Puppet) Ruler of all of China, even if the Chinese people did not want him?

The Japanese had no intention of making Pu Yi into the Emperor of China even as a puppet. Pu Yi initially agreed to work with the Japanese because he believed that they would restore his throne and he was very disappointed when they inaugurated him as merely the puppet ruler of Manchuria. They had every opportunity to crown him the restored Emperor and use this as a pretext for conquering China on his behalf if they had wanted to do so.

I'm not sure that Pu Yi was as unpopular with the Chinese as you suggest. I think that he became so because of his collaboration. I don't think he was particularly hated / despised before that. He just wasn't very relevant in modern China.

 

[Baron Jukaga]

If the Japanese could establish a Raj style system, they may keep Puyi as a Mughal Emperor while maintaining other 'independent' states and protectorates.

This. They would have had a nominal Qing Empire puppet with many subdivisions run by locals submitting to Japan.

 

[Gordy]

This. They would have had a nominal Qing Empire puppet with many subdivisions run by locals submitting to Japan.

As I said before Pu Yi was willing to collaborate and believed that the Japanese would make him Emperor again but they refused. They even refused to let him wear the traditional clothes of a Chnese Emperor whilst being crowned Emperor of Manchuria.

They may have intended to subdivide China and find puppet rulers for each subdivision but there was no way that Pu Yi was going to be more than the puppet ruler of Manchuria.

 

[LlywelynII]

I'm not sure that Pu Yi was as unpopular with the Chinese as you suggest. I think that he became so because of his collaboration. I don't think he was particularly hated / despised before that.

Puyi (his surname was Aisin Gioro/Aixin Jueluo, not Pu) was a child before that, but the Han were not fans of the Manchus by the time the Xinhai Revolution broke out. The facts that Sun Yat-sen worked to keep the Manchus (& their homelands) within China and that Puyi was considered useful by Yuan Shikai, the warlords, the Japanese, and Mao don't mean he wasn't reviled by most people even before his collaboration. Afterwards, of course, Chiang Kai-shek wanted him shot, and plenty of would-be assassins tried to help him out with that.

 

[Gordy]

Puyi (his surname was Aisin Gioro/Aixin Jueluo, not Pu) was a child before that, but the Han were not fans of the Manchus by the time the Xinhai Revolution broke out. The facts that Sun Yat-sen worked to keep the Manchus (& their homelands) within China and that Puyi was considered useful by Yuan Shikai, the warlords, the Japanese, and Mao don't mean he wasn't reviled by most people even before his collaboration. Afterwards, of course, Chiang Kai-shek wanted him shot, and plenty of would-be assassins tried to help him out with that.

I think "reviled by most people" is pushing it. I don't think his life was in much danger from ordinary people even as an abdicated Emperor. China was just very divided which given that a civil war was fought between Communist and Nationalists in his lifetime, it is not surprising that not everyone is going to be a fan and that he is going to be "inconvenient" for both sides of the civil war. There was no chance of him being restored as Emperor but he had plenty of loyal followers.

 

[DarthJF]

I think "reviled by most people" is pushing it. I don't think his life was in much danger from ordinary people even as an abdicated Emperor. China was just very divided which given that a civil war was fought between Communist and Nationalists in his lifetime, it is not surprising that not everyone is going to be a fan and that he is going to be "inconvenient" for both sides of the civil war. There was no chance of him being restored as Emperor but he had plenty of loyal followers.

During Xinhai Revolution people were literally massacring Manchus left and right to the point that they practically vanished as an ethnic group. "Reviled by most people" is exactly how I'd describe Pu Yi and the former Qing aristocracy.

 

[Gordy]

During Xinhai Revolution people were literally massacring Manchus left and right to the point that they practically vanished as an ethnic group. "Reviled by most people" is exactly how I'd describe Pu Yi and the former Qing aristocracy.

The Manchu dynasty had always been somewhat unpopular to put it mildly and underground triad organisations that sought to restore Chinese rule had long existed. Massacres happened but the reason why Manchus began to disappear (the language has survived until today though it is "critically endangered") is because of assymilation rather than genocide. If enough people around you are killed for being Manchu and you can pass yourself off as Chinese then it is sensible to do so.

But this was far from universal, Sun Yat Sen was pushing the brotherhood of Manchus and Han, and Pu Yi was "restored" to the throne by a warlord for 11 days. He never left China, he just went to live in the Japanese embassy in Beijing then Tiensin.

At this point, some people hated him for who he was but he hadn't done anything that people would hate him for yet (though he soon would).

 

[LlywelynII]

During [the] Xinhai Revolution people were literally massacring Manchus left and right to the point that they practically vanished as an ethnic group. "Reviled by most people" is exactly how I'd describe Pu[yi] and the former Qing aristocracy.

Yeah, my internet cut out and Gordy beat me to it but 'practically vanished' isn't accurate. Manchu are still the fourth largest ethnicity in China. Many fell victim in massacres or assaults, but (A) many more 'passed' as Han by cutting their hair, liquidating assets, & moving where they were less known and (B), once in power, Sun Yat-sen & co. moved fast to try to rein in the ethnic hate they'd been building up for the last few decades to leave China under their control as large and strong as possible. Less important for this discussion, (C) now that all that and the Cultural Revolution are over and especially now that China employs affirmative action towards minorities in college admissions, there have been plenty of people over the last few decades whose family passed as Han but now suddenly 'remember' that they're Manchu, changing their hukou and getting their kids into better universities.

That said,

Sun Yat[-s]en [started] pushing the brotherhood of Manchus and Han, and Pu[yi] was "restored" to the throne by a warlord for 11 days.

doesn't speak at all to him being beloved or even ignored by the people. It just speaks to his use (already more fully discussed in the post you're replying to) as a political tool by people trying to control the Manchus; Manchukuo wasn't outside the PRC's present borders, but it was outside China at the time; and "some people hated him for who he was but he hadn't done anything that people would hate him for" is moving the goalposts. He was still unpopular as @Sunforged General suggested, which is where this part of the conversation started. Unless you've got some sources, the idea most Han were happy, fine, or even indifferent to him smacks of an improbable alt history scenario.

 

[Gordy]

That said,

doesn't speak at all to him being beloved or even ignored by the people. It just speaks to his use (already more fully discussed in the post you're replying to) as a political tool by people trying to control the Manchus; Manchukuo wasn't outside the PRC's present borders, but it was outside China at the time; and "some people hated him for who he was but he hadn't done anything that people would hate him for" is moving the goalposts. He was still unpopular as @Sunforged General suggested, which is where this part of the conversation started. Unless you've got some sources, the idea most Han were happy, fine, or even indifferent to him smacks of an improbable alt history scenario.

I don't think he was beloved, I just said that he wasn't as unpopular as had been suggested. They just didn't know who he was really. He was 4 when he came to the throne and I think about 11 when he abdicated. During this time, his grandmother Cuxi ran things.

China was very divided at this time. Some hated Puyi because he was Manchu, some because he was a class enemy but he wasn't without supporters. And things never got to the stage where he was forced to leave the country, there were no angry mobs surrounding the Japanese embassy trying to lynch him. It was just wiser for him to live in the diplomatic quarters.

Puyi himself had wanted to go to the UK to study since his personal tutor was Scottish (IIRC) and then he wanted to migrate to the US (he was big on jazz and Harold Lloyd films). He wasn't staying in China out of stubbornness. If things had got too bad, he would have made a serious attempt to leave.