The French position of Strength at the Munich Agreement.

[Sunforged General]

We all know the French had a defeatist attitude at Munich. But two things I'd like to point out for the time period is that the Little Entente Alliance, and the Franco-Soviet Treaty of Mutual assistance were both still active. So if Germany didnt get what It wanted, and invaded Czechoslovakia, this would be an act of Aggression. France and Czechoslovakia would thus be in a defensive war. Thus, Romania, Yugoslavia, and the USSR would technically be obligated to come to the aid of France and Czechoslovakia. The USSR also had an Alliance with Czechoslovakia, the Czechoslovak–Soviet Treaty of Alliance signed in 1935.

Now I know many of the parties involved in these alliances were by 1938, Luke warm, or even apathetic to the idea of these alliances. However, these alliances were still, at least on paper, still active during the Munich Conference.

Why didn't France leverage this extensive Alliance during the agreement to get Germany to back off?

 

[Herbert West]

Because they knew that those alliances only existed on paper.

Next.

 

[Sunforged General]

Because they knew that those alliances only existed on paper.

Next.

The Soviets have ideological reasons to want to go to war with Germany. Czechoslovakia would already be at war with Germany due to invasion. France didn't want to cave to Germany, but felt not powerful enough to stop Germany, but if the USSR says they'll join, that'll be a morale booster. The only wild cards are Yugoslavia and Romania. If you break your word about a commitment to a written Alliance, you'll probably never have allies ever again.

 

[Herbert West]

The Soviets have ideological reasons to want to go to war with Germany. Czechoslovakia would already be at war with Germany due to invasion. France didn't want to cave to Germany, but felt not powerful enough to stop Germany, but if the USSR says they'll join, that'll be a morale booster. The only wild cards are Yugoslavia and Romania. If you break your word about a commitment to a written Alliance, you'll probably never have allies ever again.

USSR: Stuck in the Great Purge, internally reorganising, not exactly ready for war.
Czechoslovakia: A good half of their army is unreliable (sudetend germans and slovaks), and while they can hold out, they cannot hope to win. Strategically outmanouvered
Yugoslavia: has no beef with Germany. Has beef with Hungary and Italy, nations in the German SoI.
Romania: Has no beef with Germany. Has beef with Hungary and the USSR.
France: does not want a war.

This is without mentioning how the Munich agreement looks to be in line with the idea of national self-determination, hence there is no international, and certainly no anglo-american appetite for opposing it. Did you confuse it with the annexation of Czech territory in March 1939?

Any more questions?

You seem to think the Little Entente was an anti-german coalition. It was a coalition against the restoration of Austria-Hungary, and defunct once Austria ceased to be.

I will again implore you to sit back and think before you ask yet another ill-posed counterfactual question about the lead-up to WWII.

 

[Kovax]

One of the reasons why Munich was allowed to happen was that Czechoslovakia already had internal problems with its German, Slovak, and Magyar minorities, and was being pressured diplomatically by Hungary in the League of Nations to hold a plebiscite over the issue. Its threats to invade disarmed Hungary a few years earlier over the matter did not sit well with a lot of countries at the time. Basically, nobody wanted Germany to get the Sudeten back, but the Czechs had just about run out of friends. Hitler shamelessly exploited the situation and played it up to the hilt, but he didn't make it up from nothing; his efforts worked because there was already an underlying problem.

As indicated by Herbert West, the Little Entente was aimed at Austria and Hungary (France had made it clear less than a decade before that it would honor its agreements with Czechoslovakia if the Czechs declared war on Hungary), but there were "understandings" that the pact was not to be construed as an actual alliance beyond that. Once Austria was gone, Hungary was the sole target. The actions of Germany or the Soviets were outside of the focus of the agreement.

 

[Jopa79]

Why didn't France leverage this extensive Alliance during the agreement to get Germany to back off?

Because of the peace for our time. Go home and get a nice quiet sleep.

 

[Andre Bolkonsky]

If you break your word about a commitment to a written Alliance, you'll probably never have allies ever again.

Uhm, what?

One, when you are done with your comprehensive and interesting study of fixed fortifications, perhaps a course in diplomacy might be in order for you.

History did not begin in 1914. These powers have allied with one another and fought wars against each other for the better part of the last millenia. And the constantly shifting borders and power structures require an entire government agency to track.

So, take the newborn Kingdom of Italy. One minute it is allied with Germany and Austria-Hungary, on the eve of the First World War it flips to the French camp to capitalize on gains taken from the Ottoman Empire. Yet, 30 years later, Germany and Italy are right back in bed together.

France and England are friends? No they aren't, they are historical rivals who mirror one another. England's natural allies are Germany and Austria, going back to Frederick the Great and Prinz Eugene of Austria. Yet they band together against Spain and Germany. Because rule number one in diplomacy is that politics makes for strange bedfellows. The second, and remember this one, 'the enemy of my enemy is my friend'. Friends and enemies change in a heartbeat sometime.

Please. Keep this in mind. History does not happen in a vacuum. What should happen very rarely does because the world is full of surprises and greedy men seeking to feather their own nests by any means necessary.

 

[bz249]

The second, and remember this one, 'the enemy of my enemy is my friend'. Friends and enemies change in a heartbeat sometime.

This was the brilliant logic which allowed Stalin to make the Soviet Union a superpower rivaling the US or more recently gave Osama bin Laden to expand his organisation. In a highly desperate situation you might consider that they are truly "friends".. however under normal conditions the enemy of my enemy is just that. They may be a temporary ally, but nothing more.

 

[Sunforged General]

USSR: Stuck in the Great Purge, internally reorganising, not exactly ready for war.
Czechoslovakia: A good half of their army is unreliable (sudetend germans and slovaks), and while they can hold out, they cannot hope to win. Strategically outmanouvered
Yugoslavia: has no beef with Germany. Has beef with Hungary and Italy, nations in the German SoI.
Romania: Has no beef with Germany. Has beef with Hungary and the USSR.
France: does not want a war.

This is without mentioning how the Munich agreement looks to be in line with the idea of national self-determination, hence there is no international, and certainly no anglo-american appetite for opposing it. Did you confuse it with the annexation of Czech territory in March 1939?

Any more questions?

You seem to think the Little Entente was an anti-german coalition. It was a coalition against the restoration of Austria-Hungary, and defunct once Austria ceased to be.

I will again implore you to sit back and think before you ask yet another ill-posed counterfactual question about the lead-up to WWII.

USSR - A purge? Hmm, you mean like the other one they had in 1941? And still won the battle of Moscow and fended off defeat? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1941_Red_Army_Purge

Czechoslovakia - Border Fortifications to hold back the Germans, and if I'm not mistaken, unreliable elements in the army were not planned to be used in the border defense.

Yugoslavia - "The entrance of the USSR into the war strengthened the hope of the Serbian people (who traditionally saw Russia as protector of Serbia)" This from the Uprising in Serbia, however, a similar feeling will happen if Czechoslovakia and USSR need Serb run Yugoslavia's help in 1938. Yugoslavia has formal obligations to the former, and informal obligations to the latter.

Romania - in 1938 Romania has much stronger ties to France than to Germany.

The Munich agreement was not in line with national self-determination, since some areas of the Sudetenland were actually not German majority, but still Czech Majority.

The Munich Agreement was also not popular except in the first few days. "Chamberlain was greeted as a hero by the royal family and invited on the balcony at Buckingham Palace before he had presented the agreement to Parliament. The generally positive reaction quickly soured despite royal patronage. But there was opposition from the start; Clement Attlee and the Labour Party opposed the agreement, in alliance with two Conservative MPs, Duff Cooper and Vyvyan Adams, who had been seen up to then as a die hard and reactionary element in the Conservative Party.:" The Agreement was unpopular in France as well. I did not confuse this with the Annexation of Czech Territory in March 1939.

I have no questions but I do have a statement, a post is not unfounded or illegitimate just because it doesnt kowtow to the more popular preference for "Germany always wins" posts, I prefer to show the reality, that Germany was in a very poor position in 1938-1940, and they basically bluffed and lucked their way to their victories.

The Little Entente was formed originally with the intention of deterring Hungarian Aggression, it was founded originally by Romania, Yugoslavia, and Czechoslovakia. France later signed treaties with each country, these treaties were aimed at Germany, as a threat of two front war. When I refer to the Little Entente, I refer to these treaties France signed with each country, not the original framework of the Little Entente.

"The treaties obliged the parties to consult their foreign policies, particularly the security matters of the involved states." - Osmanczyk 2002: 632

I will implore you, to read the details, get educated on the facts, and understand what the OP was saying. A Question is not ill-posed just because you dont like that it brings to light how weak Germany really was.

Another Tidbit fact. " Hitler expressed the importance of the occupation for strengthening of German military, noting that by occupying Czechoslovakia, Germany gained 2,175 field guns and cannons, 469 tanks, 500 anti-aircraft artillery pieces, 43,000 machine guns, 1,090,000 military rifles, 114,000 pistols, about a billion rounds of small-arms ammunition and three million rounds of anti-aircraft ammunition. This amount of weaponry would be sufficient to arm about half of the then Wehrmacht.[98] Czechoslovak weaponry later played major part in the German conquest of Poland and France"

Without this Captured equipment, and having to spend resources trying to break the Czech fortifications, German strength will be halved, or worse.

 

[Sunforged General]

One of the reasons why Munich was allowed to happen was that Czechoslovakia already had internal problems with its German, Slovak, and Magyar minorities, and was being pressured diplomatically by Hungary in the League of Nations to hold a plebiscite over the issue. Its threats to invade disarmed Hungary a few years earlier over the matter did not sit well with a lot of countries at the time. Basically, nobody wanted Germany to get the Sudeten back, but the Czechs had just about run out of friends. Hitler shamelessly exploited the situation and played it up to the hilt, but he didn't make it up from nothing; his efforts worked because there was already an underlying problem.

As indicated by Herbert West, the Little Entente was aimed at Austria and Hungary (France had made it clear less than a decade before that it would honor its agreements with Czechoslovakia if the Czechs declared war on Hungary), but there were "understandings" that the pact was not to be construed as an actual alliance beyond that. Once Austria was gone, Hungary was the sole target. The actions of Germany or the Soviets were outside of the focus of the agreement.

The Little Entente was formed originally with the intention of deterring Hungarian Aggression, it was founded originally by Romania, Yugoslavia, and Czechoslovakia. France later signed treaties with each country, these treaties were aimed at Germany, as a threat of two front war. When I refer to the Little Entente, I refer to these treaties France signed with each country, not the original framework of the Little Entente.

"The treaties obliged the parties to consult their foreign policies, particularly the security matters of the involved states." - Osmanczyk 2002: 632

 

[Geriander]

I seem to recall reading that the Wehrmacht planned a coup if Hitler declared war over the Sudetenland. If so the French/British negotiating position was probably stronger than they knew.

 

[Sunforged General]

I seem to recall reading that the Wehrmacht planned a coup if Hitler declared war over the Sudetenland. If so the French/British negotiating position was probably stronger than they knew.

Ah yes the Oster Conspiracy. If the British or French had been a little more firm in defending Czechoslovakia, there would likely be a civil war in Germany after the Conspirators stormed the Chancellery and executed Hitler. After that we might have had Kaiser Wilmhelm II brought back to the Throne, which is probably a significant bit better than Hitler.

Id imagine the USSR and all of the Little Entente with France getting involved in the war would practically guarantee the coup, Since the main reason for the coup was the fear that if Hitler started a war with the Czechs Germany would lose badly to all their allies.

 

[bz249]

I seem to recall reading that the Wehrmacht planned a coup if Hitler declared war over the Sudetenland. If so the French/British negotiating position was probably stronger than they knew.

Told by 100% reliable guys, who had no benefit at all to tell such stories (after they lost the war).

 

[Sunforged General]

Told by 100% reliable guys, who had no benefit at all to tell such stories (after they lost the war).

The Main plotter, Hans Oster, was executed in April 1945 by the Gestapo for Helping Jews escape Germany as well as having plotted this 1938 coup, even though he didnt carry it out.

 

[bz249]

The Main plotter, Hans Oster, was executed in April 1945 by the Gestapo for Helping Jews escape Germany as well as having plotted this 1938 coup, even though he didnt carry it out.

Should have tried in 1939 september... since the war came that time. Sadly this was the unfortunate exception from the rule, where the Wehrmacht did not carry out the coup (unlike every other occasion where they would have if war would have happened under those circumstances).

 

[Cavalry]

The Soviets have ideological reasons to want to go to war with Germany. .

Security reason, not ideological. If they had let the Nazi grow it would be at their expense later. They tried hard to put the Pact with France, and when France quit, they offer help to Czech, but the Czech refused help and didn't want to fight.

In a book, France diplomacy at that time was lead by the British, so they didn't do it without the British.

 

[Kovax]

The Czechs sensibly refused to allow Soviet troops in their territory, for fear that the Soviets would never leave. They were willing to negotiate over the right to use Czech airfields at one point. Most of Eastern Europe was caught between the fear of the Soviets and the fear of Germany. As one Pole put it, "the Germans would take our land, but the Russians would take our souls".

French foreign policy was heavily influenced by British policy, only because France didn't want to find itself alone, facing Germany. The UK supported France, not for any love of France, but to prevent any power from becoming too powerful in Europe, which Germany under Hitler was very clearly looking to do.

 

[Cavalry]

The Czechs sensibly refused to allow Soviet troops in their territory, for fear that the Soviets would never leave. .

That was Polish propaganda! The Czechs can receive any form of Soviet help they want if they fight, just as the Spanish or Chinese. Soviet can help Czech official more than helping Spain or Chinese, because they already had a defense pact with them. And German's aggressive against the Czech despite of that Pact, is clearly a worrying sign for the Soviet.

 

[Geriander]

Should have tried in 1939 september... since the war came that time. Sadly this was the unfortunate exception from the rule, where the Wehrmacht did not carry out the coup (unlike every other occasion where they would have if war would have happened under those circumstances).

Tbf the later the occasion, the less suicidal a war would seem and the more support Hitler had. A coup before Munich would have more motivation and less opposition than one year later.

 

[bz249]

Tbf the later the occasion, the less suicidal a war would seem and the more support Hitler had. A coup before Munich would have more motivation and less opposition than one year later.

Well based on how the actual coup attempt run in 44, i tend to think that there was no significant support for such a thing in 1938.