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CK3 Dev Diary #17 - Governments, Vassal Management, Laws, and Raiding

Good afternoon, everyone. I’m Magne “Meneth” Skjæran. You might know me from the CK2 dev diaries or the Paradox Wikis, but for the last couple of years I’ve been working on CK3 as a programmer. Today we’re going to cover a number of topics closely related to government types: governments themselves, vassal management, laws, and raiding.

Let's start off with a familiar concept from CK2: governments. For the player, we have three playable governments: Feudal, Tribal, and Clan, which each have some significant differences in how they play.

The Feudal government type is based on European feudalism, and is heavily based around the idea of obligations: you owe service to your liege, and your liege owes you protection in return. It is the most common government form in the game. Feudal realms play pretty similarly to CK2, focusing on claims and inheritance more so than the other government forms.

A new addition in CK3 is Feudal Contracts. Every feudal vassal (except barons) has an individual contract with you, rather than obligations being set realm-wide. These contracts have three levels; Low, Medium, and High, with Medium being the default. High will provide more levies and tax at the cost of an opinion hit, while Low provides less but improves opinion. Higher levels are usually better (though perhaps not if you’re at risk of your vassals revolting), but cannot be imposed unilaterally.

You’ll need to have a hook on your vassal in order to increase their obligations unless you’re fine with all your vassals considering you a tyrant, but you can always lower them. As a result this means you can significantly increase your power if you’re able to obtain hooks on your vassals; perhaps a bit of judicious blackmail might be in order?

Feudal Contract.png

[Modifying a Feudal Contract]

Furthermore we have the Clan government form. This government is the rough equivalent of the Iqta government in CK2, though in CK3 it does have a more Feudal bent than it did previously.

The Clan government type is used by most Muslim realms. This government puts more emphasis on the family rather than the realm, with most vassals being members of your dynasty. Obligations are heavily based on opinion rather than being contractual, with happy vassals providing significantly more taxes and levies than unhappy ones. A happy family is a powerful family.

Clan governments also have access to the Clan Invasion casus belli, which can be used once in a lifetime at the highest level of Fame to invade a kingdom, providing a powerful boon for a well-established clan ruler.

Finally we have Tribal realms. Much like in CK2 these have their own Tribal holding type, providing more troops but less tax. Additionally, most tribals are able to go on raids, which you can read more about below. Tribal realms are unaffected by development, and cause non-tribal realms to have lower supply limits in their lands, making them a tougher nut to crack, but reducing their influence as the years drag on. Tribal realms also pay for men at arms using prestige rather than gold, allowing smaller realms to punch above their weight.

Tribal rulers base their obligations on levels of Fame rather than on contracts or opinion; the more famous your ruler is, the more troops and money your vassals will be willing to provide for your pursuits.

Finally, Tribal rulers have a once-in-a-lifetime Subjugation casus belli, allowing them to forcibly vassalize an entire realm.

As the game goes on, you can eventually reform out of Tribalism, becoming a Clan or Feudal realm instead.

Vassal Overview.png

[The vassal management tab]

To get an easy overview of your realm, we in CK3 have the Realm screen. Let’s start with the Vassals tab of this screen where all your vassals are shown. This gives you a clear overview of where your levies and taxes come from, who might be a threat to you, and allows you to renegotiate feudal contracts.

This is also where you change your crown authority (or tribal authority), which I’ll talk more about later in this dev diary.

Lastly, the screen shows your Powerful Vassals. Much like in CK2’s Conclave DLC, your realm will have some powerful vassals; these expect to be seated on the council, and will make their displeasure known if that is not the case.

Domain overview.png

[The Domain Tab]

Then we have the Domain tab. This lets you easily inspect your domain, showing where you’re earning money and levies, and where you can build more buildings. It also shows the level of development and control in the counties you personally hold, letting you easily tell where you can make improvements.

Finally we have the Succession tab. Due to being a bit of a work in progress, I’m afraid I can’t show you a picture of it right now. Here you can change your succession laws, see your heir(s), and check what titles, if any, you will lose when you die. If you hold any elective titles, you’ll be able to easily get to the election screen from here.

Now with all these mentions of laws, let's go through what laws exist. We’ve trimmed down the number of laws from CK2 as much of what used to be law is handled on a more individual level now, but some still remains.

Like in CK2, we have crown authority for Feudal and Clan realms, and tribal authority for Tribal realms. Higher levels of authority unlock mechanics like imprisonment (for tribals, the others start with it), title revocation, restrictions on internal wars, and heir designation. However, increasing these levels will make your vassals unhappy. Tribal authority is significantly less powerful than crown authority, representing how Tribal governments over time gradually got supplanted by Feudal and Clan governments.

Succession Laws.png

[Changing succession law]

Then there’s succession laws. To no one’s surprise, Gavelkind is making a return, though we’ve renamed it to Partition to make it more obvious what it actually means. This is the default succession form of most realms in both 867 and 1066.

For added fun, there’s now three variants of Partition. We’ve got regular Partition, which functions like Gavelkind in CK2; your realm gets split roughly equally between your heirs, and any heirs that end up a lower tier than your primary heir becomes a vassal.

However, many realms start with a worse form, especially in 867. This is Confederate Partition, which will also create titles of your primary title’s tier if possible. So if you as Norway have conquered all of Sweden but destroyed the kingdom itself, it will get recreated on your death so that your second heir becomes an independent ruler. Tribals are typically locked to this succession type, with some exceptions.

Finally we have an improved version of Partition: High Partition. Under High Partition your primary heir will always get at least half your titles, so it doesn’t matter if you’ve got 2 or 10 kids; your primary heir will get the same amount of land.

We’ve also done a lot of tweaks to the internal logic of who gets what titles, which tends to lead to far nicer splits than in CK2; border gore will of course still happen, but to a lesser degree than before.

Then we have the other succession forms. There’s Oldest Child Succession (replacing Primogeniture), Youngest Child Succession (replacing Ultimogeniture), and House Seniority. A notable difference from CK2’s Seniority Succession is that under House Seniority, the oldest eligible member of your house inherits, not of your entire dynasty.

We also have a number of variants on elective succession, ranging from Feudal Elective, to Princely Elective (HRE succession), and a handful of cultural variants. Each of these have different restrictions on who can vote, who can be elected, and how the AI will select who to vote for.

Additionally, we’ve got a full suite of gender laws, corresponding to the gender laws in CK2. These are: Male Only, Male Preference, Equal, Female Preference, and Female Only.

Finally, we have raiding. If you’re a Norwegian like me, sometimes you feel your Viking blood coursing through your veins, the noise of it drowning out everything else. Times like this, there’s only one solution: go on a raid.

Fans of Pagan gameplay in CK2 will be glad to hear that not only have we implemented raiding in CK3 as well, we’ve made some improvements to it to make it more fun to play with, and less unfun to be on the receiving end of.

The core system is very similar to CK2. If you’re a Pagan or Tribal ruler, you have the ability to raid other rulers’ lands. To do so you raise a raid army, and march or sail over to your target. Only the Norse can raid across sea; other raid armies will simply be unable to embark.

Rally Point.png

[Raising a raid army]

Once at your target your army will start looting the barony they’re in. This is a pretty quick process, but during it your army will be unable to move, preventing you from running away from any counter-raiding force. This change makes it a lot simpler to deal with raiders if you’ve got enough men and can raise them quickly enough, as the AI won’t just immediately run away.

Raid Lindisfarne.png

[A raid in progress]

While in CK2 raiding was done on a county level, in CK3 it is on a barony level. Another difference is that in CK3 raiding no longer uses the siege mechanics directly, but rather a similar system where things like siege engines do not have an impact since you’re raiding the countryside, not a heavily fortified castle.

Another significant change is that if you beat a raid army, you receive all the gold they’re carrying. This means that even if you cannot respond instantly to a raid, it is still very much worth it to beat up the raiders. Like in CK2, you also become immune to raiding by that enemy for several years.

Just like in CK2, a raid army is limited in how much loot it can carry based on the army size. Loot is deposited once the army is back in friendly lands, after which you might either disband or go raiding once more.

On the quality of life side, we now show on the map what provinces have already been raided when you have a raid army selected. This makes it easy to see what places to avoid. Hovering over a province will also tell you how much loot raiding it would provide.

Raid.png

[Northern England in its natural state]

That’s all for today, folks. Tune in next week to learn more about how war functions in Crusader Kings 3.
 
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And so will it be in CK3 as well. However CK3 is not focused around countries, so making an more detailed representation of the Byzantines/Romans don't seems much of a priority, well Imperator: Rome made Rome a pretty generic country so you have that. As far as I can tell all countries in CK3 will be generic and difference will be tied to characters, Culture and religion.
Definitely disagree, Western Europe, Muslims and Tribes have their specific government forms, tailored for them, you can't call them generic.
But the ERE doesn't and will likely receive an alternative form of feudalism, like a cube shape trying to fit in a round hole.
 
Will Scotland use the clan system?

Also, and I'm aware this is small point, I don't like the legal name changes from their actual historical names to better descriptive ones.

Obviously way easier for newer players to get to grips with the systems, but it feels like the game loses a little of it's charm.... could we not just have the proper names with an in game encyclopedia, like kingdom cone deliverance?

A lot of players really enjoyed learning about medieval political systems in ck2.
 
They can be modded. You can add more of them, and change how the math for levies and tax works.
You can of course also reference them elsewhere in script, which allows you to do things like base the ability to imprison on the contract level.
Worth noting though that the levels are currently a single set; you can't have multiple toggles or similar at the moment. E.G., you wouldn't be able to make "imprisonment allowed" separate from "taxes paid".
Sadly, modding these is largely useless if you can't have separate toggle laws. You're forced to forgo individual contracts on all things but one if you want to make use of it. Do you want to control taxes, levies, religious freedom, autonomy, crown lands, viceroy status, or personal union lands? Pick one, can't do anything else. Which at the moment, I'd say that individual obligations is probably one of lower end things I'd want to control with individual laws? The crowns authority vs autonomy sounds like a far more interesting thing to have an individual law or contract for.

Please, please, please, change this.

1. We don't use CK2's calling of tribal vassals as allies; they raise troops normally instead as we feel that works better for what we're trying to do. You can't call allies to help you raid
2. Most of it is highly moddable, though there's bound to be some details that aren't massively moddable. The core mechanics of raiding are not particularly moddable since the logic is in code, but there's parameters you can change like some of the AI weighting, amount of loot available, how much you can carry, and such. Who is able to raid is fully moddable


There will be plenty of mess. Just not as much from nonsensical partitions of your realm.
You'll still get realms split up by vassals inheriting from outside the realm and so on.
Is there a way to call in vassals to support your wars at all in the game? This is something that I always hoped would be added to help with defensive wars, as a use for favors, or when the person stands to gain from the war to make conflicts and realm dynamics more important for larger scale conflicts. For example, an AI vassal can offer to join the war if:
  • This is a defensive war and they will lose land if the war is lost.
  • This is an offensive war and they will gain land if the war is won.
  • In exchange for being promised land after the war is won.
  • In exchange for money being paid up front for their help.
  • In some cases if their liege pledges to personally fight along side them.
  • When defending against a holy war or a major CB like an invasion that threatens land loss indiscriminately.
 
we simply can't do everything we want.


It astounds me that people still fail to comprehend this fact. It’s almost like they expect there to be a cash and quickbuild command for real life.
 
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Definitely disagree, Western Europe, Muslims and Tribes have their specific government forms, tailored for them, you can't call them generic.
But the ERE doesn't and will likely receive an alternative form of feudalism, like a cube shape trying to fit in a round hole.
As I said, these government forms are not tied to your title/country but to your character, in terms of stuff like Culture, religion and so on. In CK2 each character have a government form, so it is treated as a character attribute. Basically Everything in CK3, which you can read in the vision DD is based around the characters.

This is quite different from EUIV or Imperator: Rome in which the nations are the player units, while in CK2 and CK3 the characters are the player unit.

Yes they can eventually create a government form and tie it to Byzantine Empire title but it did not sound like the developers consider it a particular high priority as of right now.

But right now the game will have 3 generic playable government forms which probably would not really represent anything in an accurate way but their purpose is to work well with the game mechanics, especially the character focused gameplay. It is quite clear that making government forms have not been a big focus for the CK3 developers which probably make some sense. It is quite similar to Imperator: Rome, which was given monarchy, republic and tribe to represent the governments of all countries on the map.

Will Scotland use the clan system?
Yes, certain Cultures get to use the clan system.
 
As someone who learned the terms 'primogeniture' and 'ultimogeniture' from CK2, I am a little disappointed to be losing them. Unlike the more specific/ambiguous gavelkind, they do mean precisely what they were used as, and I feel like they added good flavor. The replacement name seems a little more awkward.

In general, it's clear that government isn't Paradox's focus on release - they're focusing heavily in characters and events, like they've shown in the other dev diaries. That's a rational development decision from someone who has limited resources to choose a focus. The question just weighs in as to whether this game will measure up for a purchase at release or whether I'll be on CK2 for a while yet.
 
Western Europe and the "Holy Land" have always been the focuses of these games, primarily Western Europe, Fleshing out the ERE seems like a good Dlc project
 
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In general, it's clear that government isn't Paradox's focus on release
Well it is quite clear it is not a focus for CK3 release with just 3 playable generic government types to represent everyone from like Iceland to Tibet or something like that. Even just in Europé you can probably find several playable government types, not just generic feudalism and maybe muslims could have several government forms as well, not just Group them all into Clans.

Imperator: Rome also went with 3 generic government types to repesent everyone, which lead to stuff like no cursus honorum for the romans.
 
I didn't know I wanted it, but... I personally thought it was good that they renamed the inheritance laws. Same with Demesne, which I think I read somewhere is Domain now. I just never felt that using the Latin/French terms for things was important for immersion. Especially when playing a country that I imagine would have little to no influence from those languages. And it's confusing and probably demoralizing to use words almost no new player is gonna be familiar with. I remember it being kinda annoying to have to learn the meaning behind a word before I had to learn how to handle the mechanic properly.

Then again, they do have that very handy encyclopedia now, which seems to very visibly and clearly explain everything, so if they were to revert back to the latin terms, fine. Like I said, I didn't really know I wanted this before I saw it.
 
Then we have the other succession forms. There’s Oldest Child Succession (replacing Primogeniture), Youngest Child Succession (replacing Ultimogeniture), and House Seniority.
Why are we replacing these terms with weird longer English phrases? Are the players really such illiterate peasants that they won't understand what primogeniture or ultimogeniture means?
 
Hmm, I figured I'd give my five cents on things.

Concerning feudal contracts, as others have said, they are currently looking overly simplified. I suspect/hope that this is a placeholder, and we'll later see an update that will add some depth there - after all, this is a Paradox game XD
But as I never used most of the options available in CK2 anyway, I'm OK with a temporary simple solution.

As for inheritance law names, I've grown rather attached to the terms used in CK2. I understand why it is probably a good idea to use explanatory names, but it does feel a bit less flavor-full, so to speak. It'd be great to have a option to, both for inheritance laws and other terms, use either easy-to-understand-terms or historic/flavor-terms, not unlike the setting for native realm names (or, even better, ask the player for the amount of CK/Paradox experience they have and set these and other options accordingly, which can then be changed if desired). In any case, we should be able to easily mod that in without breaking checksum/ironman, as it'd be an interface mod, right?
 
As I said, these government forms are not tied to your title/country but to your character, in terms of stuff like Culture, religion and so on.
Culture and religion like Byzantine and Orthodox?
It can be done too, it's not just about the Byzantine "nation" (as the other PDX games would have defined), it's about characters too, the Basileus, his strategoi, his despots, they are all characters.

It astounds me that people still fail to comprehend this fact. It’s almost like they expect there to be a cash and quickbuild command for real life.
Yes they can eventually create a government form and tie it to Byzantine Empire title but it did not sound like the developers consider it a particular high priority as of right now.
You know, one would expect them to nail down one of the most important entities in the time period before allocating resources into expanding the map to Tibet and Subsaharan Africa.
Hell, even India can considered be very much secondary to the game's central theme in comparison to the Byzantines.
Yet, here we are.
 
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I don't think we've decided yet how moddable that will be. Republics and theocracies don't work well with the dynastic gameplay of CK3 though.

Make them moddable. They won't work well in an unmodded game, but modders could make them work well, and/or use the government types for other stuff. Please make them moddable; hardcoding things makes things way more difficult for modders.
 
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Why are we replacing these terms with weird longer English phrases? Are the players really such illiterate peasants that they won't understand what primogeniture or ultimogeniture means?
I knew what Primogeniture was, and what it meant. But I didn't even know Ultimogeniture was a thing, let alone what it was, until I started playing CK2.

So, for me this new naming convention is sort of a mixed bag. I mean, yes, make it easier for the newbies, but also bear in mind that games like CK2, and 3, can also be incredibly interesting learning experiences.

So, please put this into a Game Rule, so those of us who already know the Succession Laws can use the names we like best.
 
I have two questions:
1. Will feudal vasals be able to wage war against independent neighbours freely, without consent of their liege? Or it could be restricted in the feudal contract?
2. When it comes to tribal subjugation, will tribal vasals have the ability to subjugate realms of equal or higher tier then their liege?
 
Feudalism and Clans sound like umbrella terms for various government forms that in reality may have quite important differences from each other, which is the same with Imperator: Rome's monarchies and republics. CK3 tribes are maybe even more redicolous since the mongols and other nomads which was given their unique government form in CK2 is now just the same tribal as the Scandinavians which make probably about as Little sense that Byzantines have the same government form of France.

Culture and religion like Byzantine and Orthodox?
It can be done too, it's not just about the Byzantine "nation" (as the other PDX games would have defined), it's about characters too, the Basileus, his strategoi, his despots, they are all characters.
Yes but it is quite clear that not much resources have been spent on developing government forms at all, three generic playable governments to represent every playable character is not much. It seems they rather focus on other areas for the release version.

You know, one would expect them to nail down one of the most important entities in the time period before allocating resources into expanding the map to Tibet and Subsaharan Africa.
Hell, even India can considered be very much secondary to the game's central theme in comparison to the Byzantines.
Yet, here we are.
India also did not get any unique government forms so they will be stuck with the same 3 generic ones everyone is stuck with right now.

Maybe in the future, CK3 will have like 15 playable government types or more detailed government types inside the current Groups, right now the only difference between two feudal states seems to be Crown authority, otherwise it seems identical, CK2 have more laws and also a council which allow for more variety inside the government forms, like in one realm vassals can declare their own wars but their titles may be reworked while in Another realm the opposite may be true. CK3 Crown authority don't allow for such flexibility in a realms laws.

Right now it seems like the final version of CK2 had more playable government and more ability to customize your government, but Obviously not Everything here may be good or it could maybe be alot better. But in some ways CK3 due to that fact feel like a step back.