Plan Z - Germany's Secret Sleeping WW2 Battleship Fleet

[Riekopo]

Defeated and depleted of military technology after World War I, Germany adopted the highly controversial “Plan Z” in 1939. Launched shortly before the start of World War II, the project could have made Germany’s naval power equal to that of the United Kingdom’s Royal Navy, and it called for the construction of 10 battleships, 3 battlecruisers, 4 carriers, 15 Panzerschiffe, 5 heavy and 13 light cruisers, 22 scouts, 68 destroyers, and 90 U-boats for a total of 230 vessels with over 200,000 sailors. Facing a formidable threat from such a surface fleet available may have caused Britain to think twice about their island nation’s vulnerability and may have put Germany on the front-foot for any Sea Lion-like amphibious invasion across the English Channel...

 

[Andre Bolkonsky]

Yes. If that fleet, made of good Krupp steel, had been waiting in the wings when Germany took Paris; God help England.

But it wasn't. Paper ships scare no one. Plan Z, like many German plans, looked great on paper but less so in reality.

 

[Finnish Dragon]

Should Germany build panzer divisions or battleships? In order to defeat France and Soviet Union Germany would need a lot of panzer divisions. Germans also assumed that Britain would sue for peace if Germany would be able to defeat France. Another thing for German naval build up would be that it take time to build a fleet like that and Britain would most certainly respond by building up the Royal Navy. In the end that would be like the naval race before WWI.

 

[Antediluvian Monster]

Another thing for German naval build up would be that it take time to build a fleet like that

Indeed. Like a decade in peacetime with access to global markets. They had half a year, which is why it never happened.

 

[JohannesAngelos]

Indeed. Like a decade in peacetime with access to global markets. They had half a year, which is why it never happened.

After reading Toozes "The Wages of Destruction", it has been my opinion that the plan Z would not have been realistic even with decade of peace. It was another example of the megalomaniac scale of German military armament plans, which were accelerating the Nazi Germany into bankruptcy by 1939.

 

[Finnish Dragon]

After reading Toozes "The Wages of Destruction", it has been my opinion that the plan Z would not have been realistic even with decade of peace. It was another example of the megalomaniac scale of German military armament plans, which were accelerating the Nazi Germany into bankruptcy by 1939.

And how many large shipyards did Germany have before WWII? If you want to build a battleship then that would occupy one large shipyard for couple of years and it would be almost impossible to hide from the British intelligence service.

Let´s look at the Bismarck. She was laid down July 1st, 1936, then launched February 14th 1939 and finally commissioned August 24th, 1940. Even after that she probably needed to pass sea trials before she was ready for service. It looks if you needed to have one operational battleship then it would take more than 4 years to build and to equip that ship.

 

[Antediluvian Monster]

After reading Toozes "The Wages of Destruction", it has been my opinion that the plan Z would not have been realistic even with decade of peace. It was another example of the megalomaniac scale of German military armament plans, which were accelerating the Nazi Germany into bankruptcy by 1939.

I don't think you need to even get economic, political itself is sufficient. The activation of Plan Z simply rests on the pre condition that Anglo-German relations reach a terminal stage and that a war is imminent unless Hitler chickens out. Before that the Germans will keep abiding with the nice agreement they got with Britain a few years earlier.

 

[Graf Zeppelin]

Like the Büchselplan before Plan Z was utopic from the start.

It was imo a leftover trauma from the Versailles treaty.
We needs battleships again and lotsa but no reasonable plan what to do with them.

Make Germany great again.


You can see this with the BB to Cruiser rate.
The Plan Z setup wasnt meant for deceisive battle but for Cruiser warfare ( Raiding commerce) with BBs shoehorned in just because we want some.
So they pursued a divided strategic concept with already limited resources. Tirpitz did ALOT better (more focused) if I might say so with his concepts.

 

[Andre Bolkonsky]

Make Germany great again.

Catchy slogan. Have you thought of politics as a career choice?

 

[Graf Zeppelin]

Catchy slogan. Have you thought of politics as a career choice?

I considered this some time ago but I didnt liked the people I met.

 

[Henry IX]

Should Germany build panzer divisions or battleships? In order to defeat France and Soviet Union Germany would need a lot of panzer divisions. Germans also assumed that Britain would sue for peace if Germany would be able to defeat France. Another thing for German naval build up would be that it take time to build a fleet like that and Britain would most certainly respond by building up the Royal Navy. In the end that would be like the naval race before WWI.

If you are building a navy of that size and with that capability of changing the strategic balance then the Americans will almost certainly become involved as well. Not only do you have a naval arms race with the British, who are better at building ships than the Germans (3 years to commission a battleship as opposed four for the Bismarck) and have more suitable dry docks, but the Americans also come to play. They have the ability to build a fleet the size of the Plan Z fleet in a couple of years. Plan Z was absurd and ludicrously overconfident even by the delusional standards of the Nazi party.

 

[mccarty.geoff]

>delusional standards
Aim high or go home I say. Germany necessarily needed a superior army. To play on the enemies' table (the sea) Plan Z was thought to be what was needed. Wargaming the production strategy I'd say less than 20% of the strategic armament should have been dumped into the fleet. Just in order to defeat the Soviet Union in the Baltic.

 

[olm]

Realistic goals for German surface fleet were dominating Baltic sea and keeping open connection to Scandinavia. Everything beyond that was a wasteful mania grandioso. If you start building a fleet that could challenge UK, then the Brits will simply ramp up their naval buildup too to maintain their lead. Germans tried it before WW I and only thing they achieved was making UK more willing to form alliances with Germany's enemies.

 

[bz249]

Realistic goals for German surface fleet were dominating Baltic sea and keeping open connection to Scandinavia. Everything beyond that was a wasteful mania grandioso. If you start building a fleet that could challenge UK, then the Brits will simply ramp up their naval buildup too to maintain their lead. Germans tried it before WW I and only thing they achieved was making UK more willing to form alliances with Germany's enemies.

Due to the building holiday the German positions were not that bad... on the other hand a realistic German Navy would be more like that one
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-German_Naval_Agreement

This already means that they are well above the French Navy.

 

[Herbert West]

Drachnifel to the rescue

 

[mccarty.geoff]

Made it all of 2 minutes into that before herd immunity kicked in.

 

[Premu]

And how many large shipyards did Germany have before WWII?

If I remember correctly: Three. These were used to build the Bismarck, Tirpitz and Graf Zeppelin. They didn't have any capacity to build more ships of this size in parallel.

 

[Graf Zeppelin]

If I remember correctly: Three. These were used to build the Bismarck, Tirpitz and Graf Zeppelin. They didn't have any capacity to build more ships of this size in parallel.

No there was one more.

Bismark Blohm & Voss
Tirpitz KMW Wilhelmshaven
Graf Zeppelin DW Kiel


The second carrier was suposed to be made also in Kiel in the Germania shipyards.

So four for large ships and several others for cruisers and destroyers like
Schichau,Danzig, Bremerhaven and Stettin.

 

[pithorr]

No there was one more.

Bismark Blohm & Voss
Tirpitz KMW Wilhelmshaven
Graf Zeppelin DW Kiel


The second carrier was suposed to be made also in Kiel in the Germania shipyards.

So four for large ships and several others for cruisers and destroyers like
Schichau,Danzig, Bremerhaven and Stettin.

Danzig was not Germany before the WW2

 

[Graf Zeppelin]

Danzig was not Germany before the WW2

Yes but the Danzig shipyards show up on plan Z erm plans. For destroyers mostly.