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LizarDAMN

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Mar 19, 2012
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A stray thought popped into my mind, what would have been a plan B if the plan to grab Mussolini fails or he's imprisoned somewhere more secure or is killed etc. Who was next in line to be a puppet to Germans?

Would that even matter? I don't think Mussolini had any credibility left when he was rescued anyhow, so why did Germans even bother with such high risk operation? Just because they could? Propaganda value?
 
A stray thought popped into my mind, what would have been a plan B if the plan to grab Mussolini fails or he's imprisoned somewhere more secure or is killed etc. Who was next in line to be a puppet to Germans?

Would that even matter? I don't think Mussolini had any credibility left when he was rescued anyhow, so why did Germans even bother with such high risk operation? Just because they could? Propaganda value?
Not sure what it was intended to achieve, but it's along the same lines as a German plane reportedly shooting down the son of Hungary's regent.
 
A stray thought popped into my mind, what would have been a plan B if the plan to grab Mussolini fails or he's imprisoned somewhere more secure or is killed etc. Who was next in line to be a puppet to Germans?

Would that even matter? I don't think Mussolini had any credibility left when he was rescued anyhow, so why did Germans even bother with such high risk operation? Just because they could? Propaganda value?
He doesn't have a lot of credibility, but he has more legitimacy as a figurehead than "random German general." Most puppet states try to choose someone they can at least give a figleaf of legitimacy to. Consider Emperor Pu Yi (Qing heir) in Manchuria or Wang Jingwei (former associate of Sun Yatsen and Nationalist politician) in occupied China for the Japanese, or even Charles de Gaulle (minor cabinet member in the pre-Vichy French government) for the Allies. Yes, he was a lousy leader, but he's still more likely to command the obedience of remaining Italian fascists (who had to be considering their likely fate if they made the wrong choice between the Allies and the Axis) as a semi-plausible opponent to the Allied-backed government of Italy.

If he dies, they'll find someone else, but that's going to be more difficult. Mussolini had been in charge of Italy for over 20 years. People were used to his government; for some, he was the only leader they'd ever known. Propping up some random fascist bureaucrat and getting him to have any authority is much less likely. When you are trying to convince as much as possible of the Italian military and citizenry to cooperate with you, every little bit of legitimacy helps.
 
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Maybe Otto Skorzeny, 'the most dangerous man in Europe', wanted to practice Snatch and Grab Ops for the runs he knew were sure to come? He might not have orchestrated the plan, but he certainly took the credit and milked it for all it was worth with Eva Peron and friends.

But it does demonstrate in technicolor the ability of Nazis to use small, highly trained teams to move high priority targets quickly from place to place safely in the face of enemy activity long before the end was upon them.
 
But it does demonstrate in technicolor the ability of Nazis to use small, highly trained teams to move high priority targets quickly from place to place safely in the face of enemy activity long before the end was upon them.

"We need to clandestinely smuggle ourselves out of Germany once we lose the war, what should we do?"
"I know, let's do a kidnapping of a high-profile leader of an allied country, highly publicise it at home and abroad, and completely blow our cover!"
"Genius!"

I know you think the entire postwar world was secretly run by ODESSA and the Holy See, but come on.

As for the OP: Someone was needed to give legitimacy to the RSI, and crucially, to deter widespread resistance to the disarmament of Italy by the germans. While I am sure they could find someone else to lead the Salo Republic, his absence might mean the difference between the 50-60K fastists who outright joined either not joining, or dragging their feet.
 
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"We need to clandestinely smuggle ourselves out of Germany once we lose the war, what should we do?"
"I know, let's do a kidnapping of a high-profile leader of an allied country, highly publicise it at home and abroad, and completely blow our cover!"
"Genius!"

I know you think the entire postwar world was secretly run by ODESSA and the Holy See, but come on.

As for the OP: Someone was needed to give legitimacy to the RSI, and crucially, to deter widespread resistance to the disarmament of Italy by the germans. While I am sure they could find someone else to lead the Salo Republic, his absence might mean the difference between the 50-60K fastists who outright joined either not joining, or dragging their feet.

I see your first day at the new radiology clinic has you in no mood for a bit of humor. Take care.
 
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I'd go out on a limb and say if they fail to 'rescue' Mussolini, Germany probably loses the war.
 
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I'd go out on a limb and say if they fail to 'rescue' Mussolini, Germany probably loses the war.
Butterflies.
 
I'd go out on a limb and say if they fail to 'rescue' Mussolini, Germany probably loses the war.
Going out on a REALLY short and safe limb there?

If Germany has to rescue Mussolini from the Allies, I'd say that the war's pretty much been decided already.
 
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There was also Hitler's very considerable sentimentality. Mussolini was the first Fascist dictator and was much admired by Hitler as a younger man and he wanted Mussolini rescued for personal reasons. That is not to say he wasn't a good candidate for puppet leader of Italy, just that Hitler's 'personal' style of leadership should not ignored in trying to work out why Germany took the (sometimes insane) actions it did.
 
There was also Hitler's very considerable sentimentality. Mussolini was the first Fascist dictator and was much admired by Hitler as a younger man and he wanted Mussolini rescued for personal reasons. That is not to say he wasn't a good candidate for puppet leader of Italy, just that Hitler's 'personal' style of leadership should not ignored in trying to work out why Germany took the (sometimes insane) actions it did.
Why did Mussolini ally with Germany instead of staying neutral? Didn't the germans consider the italians as a lesser people?
 
Why did Mussolini ally with Germany instead of staying neutral? Didn't the germans consider the italians as a lesser people?

Why does any lesser power ally with its more capable neighbor before starting a war it can't win alone?

Mussolini wanted to make a great nation by plunging them in the crucible of war. He armed and supplied them poorly, their training consisted of being blessed by a Cardinal on the docks as the ships left harbor, and their military doctrine was blob mentality - and the nation he forged matches the military they fielded.
 
The original plan had been getting Italy ready for war only by 1943, but with the rapid collapse of France Mussolini became worried that the war will end before he manages to get involved, so he went with extremely optimistic "a few thousand dead for a seat at peace conference".
 
The original plan had been getting Italy ready for war only by 1943, but with the rapid collapse of France Mussolini became worried that the war will end before he manages to get involved, so he went with extremely optimistic "a few thousand dead for a seat at peace conference".

On the other hand it is a good question how much better shape the Italians would be in 1943... the weapons you want to fight in 1943 must be at least in pilot production by 1940. Ok yes had they got some time they might have fielded this behemoth in numbers
 
Going out on a REALLY short and safe limb there?

If Germany has to rescue Mussolini from the Allies, I'd say that the war's pretty much been decided already.
Indeed. While I don't see Germany losing the war even without Mussolini, in this case we are already in such an unlikely scenario where everything seems magically stacked against the axis that I don't see why they would carry on fighting and just accept their fate. I would like to recap the "hypothesis" :
- The Italians being so incompetent that they lose the Desert War at 5:1 ratio,
- The Germans not doing anything to bail them out in Africa
- The allies, after defeating the Italians 1:5, somehow still able to pull a landing across the Mediterranean in spite of the powerful Italian Navy & air force
- AND finally, instead of fighting beak & nails for Italy the minute the Western allies manage to land, the Italians just roll-over and surrender after some palace coup done by people who own all their career to Mussolini, people who have been handpicked by Mussolini, people that in some cases are part of Mussolini's gooddamnn FAMILY, and more important people who can expect no pardon from the allies.

So at this point, given what we are working with, we have left "what-if" scenario already and are deep into pulp-alternative history. So, yes, sure, also Germany loses, whatever fits OT's Westernaboo fantasy.
 
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Just a thought, but perhaps speeds up Hitler’s other allies abandoning him (maybe not much, but at least a bit. Think Hungary, Romania, Finland. Like perhaps Horthy might fast-track negotiations to change sides, or Mannerheim moves faster to take Finland out of the war. Probably only a few weeks difference anyways, but still maybe a possibility.
 
Just a thought, but perhaps speeds up Hitler’s other allies abandoning him (maybe not much, but at least a bit. Think Hungary, Romania, Finland. Like perhaps Horthy might fast-track negotiations to change sides, or Mannerheim moves faster to take Finland out of the war. Probably only a few weeks difference anyways, but still maybe a possibility.
Actually, Horthy did attempt negotiations for a change of sides, but the diplomatic offer was refused outright (they were told that they would need to surrender to Stalin) and the clandestine meeting was then announced to the press, so the negotiators were arrested by the Germans upon their return to Hungary. Germany officially occupied Hungary a few months later.

After that, Hungary was in no position to liberate the country from German occupation by itself, particularly with most of Hungary's army still engaged (willingly or not) against the Soviets, as well as the potential problems in dealing with German armored units, but had made it clear that they would willingly change sides if the Allies got close enough to provide support. Unfortunately for them, the Allies had already given up on the "soft underbelly" plan by that point, as it turned out not to be very soft at all, and went no further than Italy on that front. Many Hungarian troops at the front were still half-expecting US paratroopers to land at any moment, to help liberate them.

Then Romania changed sides, with the Soviets driving them from behind, using them as expendable distractions to soak up Hungarian fire while they advanced their armored formations into Hungary's southern plains. Hitler held Budapest for as long as possible while his SS troops rounded up as many of the refugees from other German-occupied countries as possible, who had fled to Hungary to escape being sent to the camps. If Hungary could have abandoned Hitler sooner, it would gladly have done so.

Romania could probably have abandoned Hitler sooner than it did, but the political tension between Hungary and Romania may have made it seem like an unwise idea to give Hungary an excuse for reclaiming (with German assistance) the land taken from Hungary after WWI. It also would have given them no defense against the approaching Soviets, who were not likely to let a little detail like "already surrendered" get in the way of occupying and looting the country. It didn't save Bulgaria, who surrendered to the Soviets and accepted all of the terms, and were then invaded and occupied anyway. Basically, it seems that nobody WANTED to be allied to Germany, other than Mussolini, but few had a choice in the matter. When your choices are occupation by Germany or occupation by the Soviets, you try to pick the less painful option, which unfortunately subjected several countries to the worst abuses of both.
 
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Most of them had had a choice in the matter, but that had been in 1940 or '41, when they thought the Axis would win.

By '43-4 many of them were looking to extricate themselves from what was clearly a losing cause, but neither the Soviets nor the Western Allies were particularly interested in bailing out what they viewed (rightly or wrongly) as rats fleeing a sinking ship, and of course as noted it's much harder to do so anyway once you have troops serving alongside the German army as essentially hostages (plenty of Italian garrison forces suffered once Italy switched sides, for instance).