Postwar trial plans. Was it a secret?

[Dinglehoff]

I watched a Mark Felton youtube video about capturing Goering, and what he was doing didn't make sense to me.
So he surrendered, I guess to try and work some kind of deal.

Why would he think that would be possible?
Were the allied plans for him and captured leadership, and postwar Europe, a well kept secret?
It seems from the video that the lower level allied leaders didn't know; because of the way he was brought in and dealt with initially, with them being corrected later with instructions to treat him as a criminal instead of some kind of minor celebrity.

 

[JodelDiplom]

I watched a Mark Felton youtube video about capturing Goering, and what he was doing didn't make sense to me.
So he surrendered, I guess to try and work some kind of deal.

Why would he think that would be possible?
Were the allied plans for him and captured leadership, and postwar Europe, a well kept secret?
It seems from the video that the lower level allied leaders didn't know; because of the way he was brought in and dealt with initially, with them being corrected later with instructions to treat him as a criminal instead of some kind of minor celebrity.

AFAIK it wasn't that clear what they intended to do but it was clear that there would be some kind of tribunal.

A tribunal had originally been planned after WW1 too, for Kaiser Wilhelm II, but didn't come to pass as the Kaiser went into Dutch exile and the Entente will to have him extradited wasn't as strong as the Dutch will to defend their neutrality and their queen's decision.

The nature of the tribunal and the exact charges (esp. the new concept of "crimes against humanity") were AFAIK not known before the end of the war. So Goering might have thought that his fate might be quite lenient, if he cooperated, based on what he knew about the failure of the proposed tribunal after WW1.

He might personally not have taken full notice of just how clear and horrifying a picture the world had due to the liberation of concentration camps in the weeks before the end of the war.

 

[Pyoro]

I'd say there was some level of delusion going on; this idea of playing the Western Allies against the Soviets, or even of being needed as a leader of Germany in some fashion. But no single person is that important.

And also this naive idea that a war was just fought between "gentlemen" and when it was over there wouldn't be any hard feelings; that you'd basically just shake hands with the victor, congratulate them, and they'd in turn go, "oh well, you lost, but good try, chap. Some more brandy?". But these notions were always more romantic than factual, and WWII wasn't just any war anyway.

 

[Jopa79]

Why would he think that would be possible?

One illusion which Göring had during his trial was his imagination that he would be able to "buy" his freedom. Although the Americans had captured two cargo trains filled with art treasures which Göring had stolen and kept in his private collections at Carinhall, he maintained his story, that many valuables and treasures still existed hidden at his hunting mansion. In exchange for his liberty Göring would reveal the hiding places.

It was the 1980's at the ruins of Carinhall - from the nearby lakes they discovered and refloated the last stolen treasures and statues which were drowned there during the last days of the Nazi regime.

 

[Dinglehoff]

AFAIK it wasn't that clear what they intended to do but it was clear that there would be some kind of tribunal.

A tribunal had originally been planned after WW1 too, for Kaiser Wilhelm II, but didn't come to pass as the Kaiser went into Dutch exile and the Entente will to have him extradited wasn't as strong as the Dutch will to defend their neutrality and their queen's decision.

The nature of the tribunal and the exact charges (esp. the new concept of "crimes against humanity") were AFAIK not known before the end of the war. So Goering might have thought that his fate might be quite lenient, if he cooperated, based on what he knew about the failure of the proposed tribunal after WW1.

He might personally not have taken full notice of just how clear and horrifying a picture the world had due to the liberation of concentration camps in the weeks before the end of the war.

Looks like the conferences during the war had some discussion about what to do and the Moscow Conference had a commitment to doing the tribunals and later; if wikipedia can be believed, there was some joking about how many people, but I didn't see if any of this information was publicly known or leaked to the Axis.
The Morgenthau plan did get reported on and wasn't very popular in Germany.

I didn't know about the tribunal plan for KWII.

I'd say there was some level of delusion going on; this idea of playing the Western Allies against the Soviets, or even of being needed as a leader of Germany in some fashion. But no single person is that important.

Him being delusional was my initial reaction. People all the way down the food chain had read the writing on the walls and were running for their lives.

 

[Rubidium]

It was known there would be some level of war crimes trials. Indeed, this was an explicit concern of the Japanese cabinet when discussing surrender, later, as many of the cabinet members would likely face prosecution (as indeed they did).

But as said, a lot of the German leadership were somewhat delusional, and believed that they could buy their freedom by agreeing to cooperate with the Allies. After all, they were obviously super-intelligent and knowledgeable supermen, so clearly the Allies would want to use their skills, right?

You see echoes of this even at a lower level: the Allies captured members of the various Nazi nuclear projects and imprisoned them in a farm shortly after the surrender. They didn't realize they were being bugged, and had discussions about how valuable their nuclear knowledge would be (after all, they had built a semi-functional nuclear reactor! obviously the inferior allied scientists would be drooling to learn their secrets). They were stunned to hear the news reports of Hiroshima and realize that their vaunted knowledge was largely useless as a bargaining chip.

And to be fair, plenty of nasty folks did manage to get by in exchange for their services (a lot of the post-war West German army and government had people in it whose pasts shouldn't be scrutinized, the Allies explicitly avoided any punishment of the Japanese Imperial family, and of course we had Operation Paperclip and folks like Werner "I aim for the stars but sometimes I hit London" von Braun or Unit 731), but the Allies had no need for folks like Goering, who were vastly less indispensible than they thought they were.

 

[Kovax]

Apparently the US made some kind of deal with Japan to get medical data from Japan's disease tests on prisoners of war in exchange for lighter sentences or amnesty. They deemed that the medical data was more valuable to humanity than a full reprisal for the harm already done.

 

[Rubidium]

Apparently the US made some kind of deal with Japan to get medical data from Japan's disease tests on prisoners of war in exchange for lighter sentences or amnesty. They deemed that the medical data was more valuable to humanity than a full reprisal for the harm already done.

That was Unit 731, the Japanese biowarfare unit. And it was less about the benefit to humanity and more about potential benefits to the US biological weapons program (as the data was immediately classified and the whole unit covered up for a decade).

 

[WhiteKnight77]

If you have an interest in this, a good book to read is this book.

This delves into how the tribunal formed, how they decided the charges and what led up to those charged were caught and why charges were brought against them.

Goering was delusional and thought he could get a meeting with Eisenhower and that he might be part of a new German government as stated previously. He found out the hard way that it was not gonna happen.

 

[Andre Bolkonsky]

What? I am shocked SHOCKED to discover the Nazis cut deals with the West after the war!

How have I not heard of this before now?

 

[Andre Bolkonsky]

If you have an interest in this, a good book to read is this book.

This delves into how the tribunal formed, how they decided the charges and what led up to those charged were caught and why charges were brought against them.

Goering was delusional and thought he could get a meeting with Eisenhower and that he might be part of a new German government as stated previously. He found out the hard way that it was not gonna happen.

RSHA murders six million people to fulfill Hitler's vision of a Jew Free post-war Europe. The German Army holds the front lines to buy them more time while the Nazi Party takes the massive fortune gleaned from the Rape of Europe and buries it in the backyard like a dog waiting for the war to end so they can dig it up and rebuild Germany from within. When the war ends, the Kameraden and True Believers scuttle down Ratlines or hide in safe houses for a few years till the coast is clear and that blood type tatooed under your left arm has been burned away.

Ten men swing by the neck until they are dead.

This is justice?

 

[Dinglehoff]

I don't think the revolutionary leadership got any deals though.

 

[Dinglehoff]

RSHA murders six million people to fulfill Hitler's vision of a Jew Free post-war Europe. The German Army holds the front lines to buy them more time while the Nazi Party takes the massive fortune gleaned from the Rape of Europe and buries it in the backyard like a dog waiting for the war to end so they can dig it up and rebuild Germany from within. When the war ends, the Kameraden and True Believers scuttle down Ratlines or hide in safe houses for a few years till the coast is clear and that blood type tatooed under your left arm has been burned away.

Six men swing by the neck until they are dead.

This is justice?

What do you think justice would be instead?

 

[WhiteKnight77]

RSHA murders six million people to fulfill Hitler's vision of a Jew Free post-war Europe. The German Army holds the front lines to buy them more time while the Nazi Party takes the massive fortune gleaned from the Rape of Europe and buries it in the backyard like a dog waiting for the war to end so they can dig it up and rebuild Germany from within. When the war ends, the Kameraden and True Believers scuttle down Ratlines or hide in safe houses for a few years till the coast is clear and that blood type tatooed under your left arm has been burned away.

Ten men swing by the neck until they are dead.

This is justice?

You must have missed the part where former Nazis were hunted down and tried, and often hanged for their crimes. Others were killed outright when found. The ones convicted at the Nuremburg trial were ones who signed off on the orders for the atrocities that happened. Sadly, there were those who cheated the law by taking their own lives beforehand such as Himmler and Goering (even though he was convicted by the tribunal). There were actually 22 defendents and 11 were hanged though 12 were sentenced to hanging. Seven were sentenced to prison for 10 years to life (Hess died in prison) and 3 were aquitted.

The Nuremburg trial that included Goering, Hess, Donitz, Kaltenbrunner and others does not mean others were not tried. France and other countries had trials as well. There was other Nuremburg trials that tried industrialists and other Nazis as well, that are often not heard of, that produced convictions for those who either used slave labor or worked in the camps.

 

[JodelDiplom]

You must have missed the part where former Nazis were hunted down and tried, and often hanged for their crimes. Others were killed outright when found. The ones convicted at the Nuremburg trial were ones who signed off on the orders for the atrocities that happened. Sadly, there were those who cheated the law by taking their own lives beforehand such as Himmler and Goering (even though he was convicted by the tribunal). There were actually 22 defendents and 11 were hanged though 12 were sentenced to hanging. Seven were sentenced to prison for 10 years to life (Hess died in prison) and 3 were aquitted.

The Nuremburg trial that included Goering, Hess, Donitz, Kaltenbrunner and others does not mean others were not tried. France and other countries had trials as well. There was other Nuremburg trials that tried industrialists and other Nazis as well, that are often not heard of, that produced convictions for those who either used slave labor or worked in the camps.

You must be new here...

Andre has this thing about the SS men having successfully hidden from the persecution and influenced world history from hiding since 1945. Make sure to ask about the role of the Vatican in the whole thing.

 

[WhiteKnight77]

You must be new here...

Andre has this thing about the SS men having successfully hidden from the persecution and influenced world history from hiding since 1945. Make sure to ask about the role of the Vatican in the whole thing.

I know about the role of the Vatican. Why does one not understand why the Israelis did what they did? The Mossad went after those who went underground and took them out in several ways to include kidnapping (that term could be construed as harsh) or just outright killing them where they were found.

 

[Andre Bolkonsky]

You must be new here...

Andre has this thing about the SS men having successfully hidden from the persecution and influenced world history from hiding since 1945. Make sure to ask about the role of the Vatican in the whole thing.

Jodel is 100% correct.

And I thank him for his constant pursuit of my ideas and his personal demand my arguments are over documented and precisely spoken. He has done me a great service without even knowing it.

 

[Andre Bolkonsky]

I know about the role of the Vatican. Why does one not understand why the Israelis did what they did? The Mossad went after those who went underground and took them out in several ways to include kidnapping (that term could be construed as harsh) or just outright killing them where they were found.

Israel chased nobody. The Mossad investigated no one. Individual Jews found these men of whom you speak and brought them to justice.

Eichmann is seen by an old blind Jew who sees more through the eyes of his daughter than men with two good eyes. He pressures Tel Aviv until Mossad is forced to send an abduction team and return him to Israel for public trial in one of the most anti-climatic events in history. The problem with the Eichmann operation is it created true paranoia in the other Big Names and they dove deep underground after that rather than living as an open secret in Juan Peron's Argentina.

Serge and Beate Klarsfeld spend their life hunting Jews. They find Herbert Cukurs of Rudolph Lange's Riga Einsatzgruppen in Uraguay running (not surprisingly) a flying boat service and pinpoint his location for a Mossad hit squad to apply Special Treatment. They find and spotlight Klaus Barbie in Bolivia and his friends in CIA did nothing to stop his extradition when kidnapping proved non-viable. Amongst others.

Simon Wiesenthal, the most famous Nazi hunter of them all, merely collects data and does very little with it other than share data that leads to a few a few high profile cases involving Eichmann, Fritz Stangl, and that sadistic woman from Madjdanek Camp. He knows where Mengele is hiding, he spends a good deal of time documenting Bormann's hidden personas in South America, but knowing something and being able to do something about it are two different items.

Do you think Augusto Pinochet, whose unofficial director of security is Walter Rauff, Heydrich's personal aide, is going to give up the Nazis hiding in the fortified 'cult' compound of Colonia Dignidad? Or Juan or Isabel Peron? Alfredo Stroessner is going to give up Gestapo Muller, his head of security, or Dr. Mengele who is the exiled Nazis doctor of choice? No. And an individual who goes seeking Nazis in these places takes his life into his own hands and risks Night and Fog for his efforts or imprisonment until the next time the Caravan of Death comes to town.

You have a handful of individuals who see justice, the vast majority walk free and die in their own beds.

However. 'Vengeance is Mine, sayeth the Lord.' I have no doubt these men met a much worse fate than any humankind can devise for what was done to His Chosen People.

 

[JodelDiplom]

And I thank him for his constant pursuit of my ideas and his personal demand my arguments are over documented and precisely spoken. He has done me a great service without even knowing it.

No need to thank me, your arguments and contributions to the discussion of these events are fully part of the history forum experience. I don't agree with every aspect of them but I would miss them if for some reason you lost your interest in contributing them to discussions.

 

[Andre Bolkonsky]

No need to thank me, your arguments and contributions to the discussion of these events are fully part of the history forum experience. I don't agree with every aspect of them but I would miss them if for some reason you lost your interest in contributing them to discussions.

/bow. I am honored, sir.