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It would be difficult to really ascertain whether or not the use of atomic weapons shortened the war. I personally think that they did: as I read it, their use brought the unbalance in the Japanese government to a head and allowed the Emperor to intervene. They also did serve the purpose to show down the Soviets. I think that their employment in Japan deterred their use going forward: without the experience of their employment in Japan, does Truman shut down Mac in Korea? Elsewhere when their capability improves?

Regardless, I do agree that no one weapon really brought the war to a quicker conclusion aside from strategic decisions about operational actions on the part of the combatants.
 
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It would be difficult to really ascertain whether or not the use of atomic weapons shortened the war. I personally think that they did: as I read it, their use brought the unbalance in the Japanese government to a head and allowed the Emperor to intervene. They also did serve the purpose to show down the Soviets. I think that their employment in Japan deterred their use going forward: without the experience of their employment in Japan, does Truman shut down Mac in Korea? Elsewhere when their capability improves?

Regardless, I do agree that no one weapon really brought the war to a quicker conclusion aside from strategic decisions about operational actions on the part of the combatants.
Most of the stuff to do with the bomb was thinking about after the war, not during.

I think...maybe, radar helped the british kill the luftwaffe faster and speed up their operations. But as to whether it was a game changer in that theatre? I'm not sure.

The german intelligence apparatus being so utterly awful probably helped quite a lot. The allies and Soviets having all their codes broken and constantly reading all the german plans throughout the war probably did shorten it to whatever degree.

But we're back to the axis being crap, not the allies being good, shortening the war. Which i think is probably the best way of looking at it generally.
 
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My thanks to Wraith for carelessly posting at the top of the page and so delaying the update. These things are always appreciated.

That is exactly the sort of thing I hang around this thread to see. A triumph of the genre.
There had to be some reason that the much put upon and delayed readers kept persevering all these years.
DYAEiOu.gif


(You may wish to reconsider the posting of the old swatsikas, mind…)
I had genuinely forgotten about that, so thank you for the reminder.

Shall we make a list of things that actually did shorten the war? Because the usual picks don't seem to have done much.
Somewhat unusually the turret lathe people were claiming credit for lengthening the war. Though this is apparently because the lathes were the only thing standing between Germany and total victory.

Epseically the nukes.
These kind of 'hot takes' are why we don't let you out near post-Medieval history.

Thing is, most of the things and decisions that 'vastly shortened the war' weren't examples of allied or soviet genius but the germans making stupid mistakes.

Edit: I was charmed to read the thoughts of one commentator who asked if this latest Australian update was in any way relevant to the game situation. And the response, which was yes, slightly, after checking through very old notes on the issue.
It is a vestigal and much ignored thing, but there is a game somewhere under all this.

It would be difficult to really ascertain whether or not the use of atomic weapons shortened the war. I personally think that they did: as I read it, their use brought the unbalance in the Japanese government to a head and allowed the Emperor to intervene. They also did serve the purpose to show down the Soviets. I think that their employment in Japan deterred their use going forward: without the experience of their employment in Japan, does Truman shut down Mac in Korea? Elsewhere when their capability improves?
I mostly agree with this. The Japanese were not going to surrender if just left alone on the Home Islands. Starving them out would have been horrific, continued conventional bombing would be very bloody (and might not have worked) and an invasion could have been a bloodbath beyond comprehension. As a grim fact more Japanese people died in the Battle of Okinawa than died in Hiroshima and Nagasaki combined. If the Japanese had mustered a similar level of resistance in the Home Islands, and why wouldn't they, it doesn't bear thinking about.

Regardless, I do agree that no one weapon really brought the war to a quicker conclusion aside from strategic decisions about operational actions on the part of the combatants.
I agree no Weapon was amazing enough to do so. But 'boring' logistical objects perhaps. I mentioned the liners, the Queen Elizabeth and Queen Mary carried over 1 million troops across the Atlantic. They were large enough to carry an entire division of men (16,000) and some cargo, on their own, at damn near 30knots so they were immune from the U-boat threat.

Given the Allies were always short on shipping, it was the key constraint in every theatre, you could argue that without those ships it would not have been possible to move enough troops around, fast enough, to launch D-Day. Certainly you would have to accept massive disruption elsewhere to free up the equivalent capacity in smaller, slower ships that would have to be convoyed across carefully.

I think...maybe, radar helped the british kill the luftwaffe faster and speed up their operations. But as to whether it was a game changer in that theatre? I'm not sure.
A Battle of Britain without radar, and without the Command and Control system behind it, does not end well for Britain. Without the early warning you can't spot the Germans early enough to get your own fighters to altitude to intercept and as a matter of practicality you cannot keep enough aircraft on patrol to do any good.
The german intelligence apparatus being so utterly awful probably helped quite a lot. The allies and Soviets having all their codes broken and constantly reading all the german plans throughout the war probably did shorten it to whatever degree.

But we're back to the axis being crap, not the allies being good, shortening the war.
You do know the German codes didn't just break themselves and it took a lot of work to break them and keep breaking them every time they changed?
Which i think is probably the best way of looking at it generally.
Aside from being inaccurate, that does sound quite a sad and miserable way to look at things.
 
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Well the Irish under the Ged Lot are dangerously close to post medieval now, having researched pre renaissance thought.

Which is something you can research...apparently.
 
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Well the Irish under the Ged Lot are dangerously close to post medieval now, having researched pre renaissance thought.

Which is something you can research...apparently.
Renaissance thought as a tech is a bit odd, but its a game mechanism so fair enough I suppose.

Pre-Renaissance thought as a research thing is something quite special. Paradox do somewhat set themselves up for being mocked with things like that.
 
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Renaissance thought as a tech is a bit odd, but its a game mechanism so fair enough I suppose.

Pre-Renaissance thought as a research thing is something quite special. Paradox do somewhat set themselves up for being mocked with things like that.

What is Pre-Renaissance, do you think?

What would renaissance be, come to think, as that is also a tech? The last one, naturally.

Even more confusingly, there is a tech on there describing the specific construct the Dutch used in the 15th century to sail swiftly and solidly through the baltic and North seas.

But, as we all know, there is no such thing as boats or ships in ck3...

I suppose it is this sort of genius that led to the HRE AI to decide the Irish were the perfect outside power to vote into office over them to solve all their problems...
 
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My thanks to Wraith for carelessly posting at the top of the page and so delaying the update. These things are always appreciated.
Hot take before refreshing for your latest response: I knew that you would need a bit of time. Part of my surveillance package. This does of course bode ill for the next update, that's got to be due on time.
 
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As Astrodragon timeline at alt history forum got me interested in British tanks (and Pip also comments in it), I'm now wondering what cruiser tank was selected in the end?

In Chapter XCII: A Scottish Restaurant Menu of Tanks several designs were offered but next update was Spanish Civil War? Was anything chosen afterward?
 
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What is Pre-Renaissance, do you think?

What would renaissance be, come to think, as that is also a tech? The last one, naturally.
I would imagine Paradox would take the wikipedia answer and claim "The intellectual basis of the Renaissance was its version of humanism, derived from the concept of Roman humanitas and the rediscovery of classical Greek philosophy, such as that of Protagoras, who said that "man is the measure of all things"."

This is very much not my period, but that does seem decidedly dodgy as a claim. But I can absolutely see a Paradox researcher going with that answer as it's lazy, particularly as we know from our HOI studies that said 'researcher' is probably a university under-graduate student, working part time as as combined game tester/researcher.

Even more confusingly, there is a tech on there describing the specific construct the Dutch used in the 15th century to sail swiftly and solidly through the baltic and North seas.

But, as we all know, there is no such thing as boats or ships in ck3...
CK3 continues to live down to my expectations, it is reassuring in some way.
I suppose it is this sort of genius that led to the HRE AI to decide the Irish were the perfect outside power to vote into office over them to solve all their problems...
Regardless of time frame, Paradox AIs are always terrible at diplomacy (they are often bad at other things as well, but they are always bad at diplomatic strategy).

Hot take before refreshing for your latest response: I knew that you would need a bit of time. Part of my surveillance package. This does of course bode ill for the next update, that's got to be due on time.
Your commitment to surveillance and understanding of my need for time is strangely reassuring. As in it is reassuring, but also strange.

As Astrodragon timeline at alt history forum got me interested in British tanks (and Pip also comments in it), I'm now wondering what cruiser tank was selected in the end?

In Chapter XCII: A Scottish Restaurant Menu of Tanks several designs were offered but next update was Spanish Civil War? Was anything chosen afterward?
There are a few interesting tank heavy timelines on ah.com right now. I'll admit I'm taking a few notes from that to revise my own ideas, though things will be quite different in Butterfly. On the tactical level there is actual fighting in Spain to learn from and on the strategic level the question of who the politicians expect they might have to be fighting and how much Army they are happy to pay for.

On the actual tanks. That chapter was Spring of 1937, typically it was a couple of months for a wooden mockup, but about a year or so for first prototype (for a fresh design). A redesign is faster, how long depends on how much is being tweaked. My big plan has an updated pencilled in for Spring 38, the various powers will have been shipping new (and not so new) tanks to Spain ready for the new campaigning season, so there will be a review of various nations approach to tanks and probably a chapter (or two) on the UK tank force.

Basically nothing has been picked yet. The A9 and A10 orders are being finished (because actual construction takes longer than HOI claims), the heavily revised A13 prototype is being worked up ready for Autumn 37 trials and the new A14 prototype is being built ready for early 1938 trials. Not conincidentally the first pre-series A12 Matildas should also be coming off the line about that time. Basically it is all coming together ready for the Spring 38 update when decisions are made.

The tank caucus is growing!
It is an ominous sign!
 
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Brief response. Not been on the forum for a week and doubt I'll be around again for a while but...

CK3 continues to live down to my expectations, it is reassuring in some way.
As I get to the end of the first game, I must say I've enjoyed it...but I have no idea how to convert it to EUIV. No ships. No real economic or military building...I did wonder before about why there is no official convertor to just auto it like there is in ck2, but I assume now the dev team got to it and realised how hard that would be...

If Ireland does go into EUIV, there shall have to be a scene where the current Ged looks blankly at a new advisor who says naval warfare is now a thing and they should build boats. Before having to explain what boats are.

And why money now won't just come out of the ground and has to be worked for...
Regardless of time frame, Paradox AIs are always terrible at diplomacy (they are often bad at other things as well, but they are always bad at diplomatic strategy).
Honestly, it actually helped the HRE immensely in the short term. We went in, stabilised the region, launched their economy into the stratosphere, and obliterated all their rivals.

Of course, we also arrested and executed almost everyone in power and turned the place into a giant meat grinder colony for soldiers...but the ethnic cleansing hasn't started yet so it could always get worse...

Still, the former HRE should be proud in a way. The fiercely isolationist proto-facists in Ireland would never have saw mainland Europe as a place they wanted to be permentantly without the Germans forcing them into office and then attempting to take over the Irish through internal bureaucracy...
 
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I would just like to take the opportunity to register my profound regret at having missed the anniversary itself, although it seems to have passed under the radar generally so we're all equally at fault, but on January 23 this thread turned a frankly bewildering 15 years old. Eleven more months and it will be applying for its national insurance number!

God bless the good ship Butterfly and all who sail with her – and here's to fifteen more years!
 
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I would just like to take the opportunity to register my profound regret at having missed the anniversary itself, although it seems to have passed under the radar generally so we're all equally at fault, but on January 23 this thread turned a frankly bewildering 15 years old. Eleven more months and it will be applying for its national insurance number!

God bless the good ship Butterfly and all who sail with her – and here's to fifteen more years!
I had missed this anniversary myself, so thank you for the reminder. To reach 15 gloriously slower than real time years is quite the achievement and it is indeed bewildering that people have stuck with this, a miracle I remain grateful for. I've checked my stats calc and we have stabilised at around 9.5 real time days per game day and we should reach 1948 (which was the end date based on when HOI2 stops) sometime around 2130, the honour of writing those update falling to Pip Generation 4.

As an actual commemoration I tried to find something that combined the Pillars of Butterfly; excessive baroque detail, derailment from the actual plot and techporn. I came up with this picture;
etynnyte.jpg
This is the MV Gay Viking, a Royal Navy blockade runner. Because while the British blockade on German imports was more famous, and more important, the Germans did cut off some British trade routes, not least the run to Sweden. So the MV Gay Viking was on the Hull-Stockholm run, sneaking supplies of Swedish ball bearings through the Baltic and across the North Sea. In between those missions she made runs into north Denmark, dropping of weapons and supplies to the Danish Resistance.

All in all an interesting little ship who's crew did unglamorous but important things, many of which I had been entirely unaware of. This is of basically no relevance to Butterfly or the plot, but then it would not be an excessively detailed derailment if it had been relevant.
DYAEiOu.gif
 
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Next chapter was slightly delayed by me poking at the mysteries of calcium cyanamide (which probably won't feature) and trying to understand a particularly fratricidal bout of Celtic political infighting (which probably will feature), however those issues are now resolved and progress on the update can now continue.
 
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Having spent some time sojourning away from these forums, upon my return I decided to ease back into things with a brief check-in on Butterfly. I am much gratified to find that in the preceding two months only one update has been produced, in accordance with that most majestic of timelines.

I shall reply to the update and then catch up on the following discussion, which by now despite being not two pages off from the update I am certain has moved in to such unrelated topics as US Navy procuration policies, nuclear weapons, and/or South Indian architecture. With any luck, I'll even have called at least one of the three.

Imperial Conferences spawned committees, councils and bureaus in much the same way the Stuarts spawned illegitimate children; frequently, vigorously and with precious little thought as to the consequences.

One will be hard-pressed to find a more suitable line to welcome one back to AARland than this.

While the Australian government had grandly declared they wished to build the 'whole engine', as opposed to assembling kits of imported parts, the reality was proving far more challenging than they had imagined.

I await the day when we shall all be surprised as a government finally finds, for the first time in human history, that reality proves exactly as challenging as expected. I do not await this day with much optimism, however.

It was quietly being discussed if allowing a small number of imported parts would be an acceptable compromise of Australia's grand aero-engineering industrialisation plans.

My understanding from modern politics is that no compromise is acceptable. I hope the age under discussion is one more enlightened in such matters. Again, I hold out precious little optimism, however.

while a great deal of British capital was being invested in Australia, Canada and the wider Empire (formal and informal) it was going to the 'wrong' schemes. That is to say projects that would make the best returns for the investors and not those schemes that accorded with the plans of the various governments.

The day that the government and the investors agree on the 'right' schemes is a day of fear and trembling, for that is the day when the investors have bought out the govern...oh. Oh no. Oh dear...

As an example gold mining was a popular choice for the Empire focused investor, very large scale investment was ongoing throughout the 1930s in new and expanded mines in Western Australia, Northern Ontario, the Canadian North West Territories and much of East Africa. With so much of the world economy remaining on the gold standard, and with the 'Gold Fix' conveniently priced in Sterling in London, these investments were proving far lucrative than expected, even after the costs of the additional infrastructure required to access the new mines. The delight amongst the investors at this was almost perfectly mirrored by the frustrations of the Dominion governments, who had wished to move their economies away from resource extraction and into more industrial endeavours.

A clever investor might think to set up an industrial endeavor which relies on the resources so extracted, in parallel with such a resource extraction operation, and profit from both ends of the system so constructed. Unfortunately for said investor, governments apparently tend to frown on this sort of thing, using words like "monopoly" and "antitrust". Whether this is either here or there, I leave as an exercise for the writAAR.

However those efforts were fairly narrowly focused on the British domestic market, had more than half an eye on minimising 'disruption' to the existing systems and, far more seriously, were not actually working.

It's always that last bit that keeps getting you in the arse end, that.

The stick' (making other investment opportunities less attractive through tax or regulations) was discarded due to concerns it would have undesirable side effects elsewhere,

It is at this point that I know for certain we have diverged once again from actual history, as real historical governments have never shown such acute self-awareness in all of history to date.

What should also be noted that the Bank of England directors would feel they 'owed' the clearing banks something for their failure to maintain the status quo and that this marker would be called in sooner than anyone had expected with quite unexpected consequences.

A plot hook, to be recalled sometime in mid-2030.

Some people would have to tempt fate and say industrial finance seemed very interesting and that it would not scare anyone off. Let us see if they are still so confident of those opinions now.

If anything, I would complain only that I wish to see the knock-on effects of such things rather more promptly. I would, but as this is Butterfly and any form of promptness would be an insult to the art, I shan't. Things are best this way.
Z3wSg01.gif


The Macmillan Gap was indeed a thing, you can find a number of explanations ranging from "Evil bankers oligarchy" through to "It's Lloyd Georges fault". Naturally I prefer that explanation, which is obviously correct.
Z3wSg01.gif
The reasoning is thus - the main source of small/mid sized industrial investments from the Industrial revolution through to just before WW1 were mad aristocrats, the idle rich and people who had already made a fortune from industrial endeavours. The huge hike in Death Duties Lloyd George introduced, followed by WW1 and lots of lords and heirs dying off, encouraged all those people to setup trusts and other such tax-dodges, none of which could do such industrial investments as they were required by tax law to invest in sensible things (if they were to pretend to be a trust not a tax dodge). Frankly Lloyd George should have had the testicular fortitude to just tax the rich properly and not do it in such a half arsed, easily dodged and distortional way. But I digress.

While I can't speak for the rest of the world, if you said such things in the USA you'd likely manage to get both sides of the political spectrum equally enraged at yourself, an impressive act of acumen for which I'd wholeheartedly commend you.

BIFID is an invention

Keeping up that classic Pippian tradition of acronymese, I see.
 
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I've actually spend ages thinking about a response to this, because it's something I think about when plotting and writing.

I'm aware that some of my writing can slip into just summarising books/sources/whatever to explain the background to something, and I think that adds something as most normal people don't know the background to some of the things I write about. But I've come to realise every chapter should always have some variation in it, at least a few words about what has happened differently (or not happened at all) because of the earlier events. If nothing has changed from actual history, then I probably shouldn't be writing about it.

So it is not so much fear of being boring (though I still think industrial inter-war financing is a niche read) it is fear of accidentally writing a university essay or report and expecting people to read it for fun.

Some people live for such things, you know. Both the reading of and the forcing of others to read.

Taxing the rich their fair share is beyond liberal democracies apparently. Although allegedly the amerciand managed it briefly in the 50s or some such???

Prior to the 1980s I believe we had top marginal tax rates in the 90% range, similar to Britain if I understand Lord El Pip's response correctly.

You know what, Pip, that was genuinely fascinating. I don't know if I entirely understood it, but I feel like I got enough of it to see what's going on and how it's different to OTL. I have learnt a great deal about banks and aluminium smelting, and frankly to do that in the space of a few paragraphs is something I would have never imagined in my wildest of dreams. Good stuff.

Motion seconded. Anyone to carry?

From my side I probably would never look at much of this without it forming part of the research for this story. I do occasionally go further than I need to, as in this case where I now know far too much about the difficulties of 1930s industrial finance, most of which did not make it into the last chapter and which will never be 'useful' to me. But it is part of my process, I have to feel I understand something before I can properly start writing about it.

One must have a thorough understanding of something in order to accurately determine that the thing is, in fact, profoundly irrelevant to the matter at hand.

Shall we make a list of things that actually did shorten the war? Because the usual picks don't seem to have done much. Epseically the nukes.

Nukes, called it.

It would be difficult to really ascertain whether or not the use of atomic weapons shortened the war. I personally think that they did: as I read it, their use brought the unbalance in the Japanese government to a head and allowed the Emperor to intervene. They also did serve the purpose to show down the Soviets. I think that their employment in Japan deterred their use going forward: without the experience of their employment in Japan, does Truman shut down Mac in Korea? Elsewhere when their capability improves?

I mostly agree with this. The Japanese were not going to surrender if just left alone on the Home Islands. Starving them out would have been horrific, continued conventional bombing would be very bloody (and might not have worked) and an invasion could have been a bloodbath beyond comprehension. As a grim fact more Japanese people died in the Battle of Okinawa than died in Hiroshima and Nagasaki combined. If the Japanese had mustered a similar level of resistance in the Home Islands, and why wouldn't they, it doesn't bear thinking about.

Personally, I think the Soviet 'August Storm' offensive played the larger role. Not to say that the atomic bomb didn't factor into Japanese thinking, but the ominous spectre of Soviet domination in their sphere of influence seemed to have been significantly more motivating for the leadership, which after all was prepared to sacrifice millions upon millions of civilian lives for "honor" even before the bombs made clear just how that sacrifice would be made.

It is a vestigal and much ignored thing, but there is a game somewhere under all this.

The AAR, or real life? :p

Hot take before refreshing for your latest response: I knew that you would need a bit of time. Part of my surveillance package. This does of course bode ill for the next update, that's got to be due on time.

For a certain idiosyncratic definition of time, perhaps...

The tank caucus is growing!

+1 as always.

This is very much not my period, but that does seem decidedly dodgy as a claim. But I can absolutely see a Paradox researcher going with that answer as it's lazy, particularly as we know from our HOI studies that said 'researcher' is probably a university under-graduate student, working part time as as combined game tester/researcher.

Not to give any credit to Paradox, but this statement severely overestimates the capabilities of the average university undergraduate student, particularly where "research" is involved.

On the actual tanks. That chapter was Spring of 1937, typically it was a couple of months for a wooden mockup, but about a year or so for first prototype (for a fresh design). A redesign is faster, how long depends on how much is being tweaked. My big plan has an updated pencilled in for Spring 38, the various powers will have been shipping new (and not so new) tanks to Spain ready for the new campaigning season, so there will be a review of various nations approach to tanks and probably a chapter (or two) on the UK tank force.

The update slate for 2028 is looking quite good I think.

I had missed this anniversary myself, so thank you for the reminder. To reach 15 gloriously slower than real time years is quite the achievement and it is indeed bewildering that people have stuck with this, a miracle I remain grateful for. I've checked my stats calc and we have stabilised at around 9.5 real time days per game day and we should reach 1948 (which was the end date based on when HOI2 stops) sometime around 2130, the honour of writing those update falling to Pip Generation 4.

As an actual commemoration I tried to find something that combined the Pillars of Butterfly; excessive baroque detail, derailment from the actual plot and techporn. I came up with this picture;
etynnyte.jpg
This is the MV Gay Viking, a Royal Navy blockade runner. Because while the British blockade on German imports was more famous, and more important, the Germans did cut off some British trade routes, not least the run to Sweden. So the MV Gay Viking was on the Hull-Stockholm run, sneaking supplies of Swedish ball bearings through the Baltic and across the North Sea. In between those missions she made runs into north Denmark, dropping of weapons and supplies to the Danish Resistance.

All in all an interesting little ship who's crew did unglamorous but important things, many of which I had been entirely unaware of. This is of basically no relevance to Butterfly or the plot, but then it would not be an excessively detailed derailment if it had been relevant.

Indeed, an excellent commemoration complete with necessary double-entendre.

Next chapter was slightly delayed by me poking at the mysteries of calcium cyanamide (which probably won't feature) and trying to understand a particularly fratricidal bout of Celtic political infighting (which probably will feature), however those issues are now resolved and progress on the update can now continue.

Good God, man, no need to rush things! :p
 
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I have to echo @nuclearslurpee here in admiring the 2028 update slate, though one must be careful of rushing the author. We can't have Pip go the way of George R. R. Martin and simply never give us the next installment!

That said, with this post, there are two more posts before the top of the page. As ever, two is the number of replies we seek, and the replies we seek shall number two. Three shall thou not count, lest it be of El Pip. Four is Right Out.
 
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Don't have much to add, but can say that after following Pip for 15 years it was disturbing to see aforementioned British tank timelines on Alt history.com race from 1934 to war in a few pitiful months.

Shamefully fast pace, beneath a true British gentleman.
 
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I would just like to take the opportunity to register my profound regret at having missed the anniversary itself, although it seems to have passed under the radar generally so we're all equally at fault, but on January 23 this thread turned a frankly bewildering 15 years old. Eleven more months and it will be applying for its national insurance number!

God bless the good ship Butterfly and all who sail with her – and here's to fifteen more years!
Umm

*Frantic rummaging for some sort of late gift*

Give me a minute or five...
 
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