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Dandy_Dandy

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Apr 4, 2015
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As currently envisioned culture integration of a people stops the assimilation of that population when integrated. For example as the Romans granting citizenship to the Etruscans stops them assimilation into the roman population. This doesn't work historically as the Etruscan language disappears around the time period the game ends due to Romanisation. As currently implemented the Etruscans would survive completely intact toward the end of the game timeline.

Instead another solution would swap the assimilation of pops, where unintegrated pops would keep their culture and integrated pops would assimilate. Unintegrated pops like that of the peoples of Greece would be excluded from political power in Rome and would have no incentive political or economic to assimilate, for the nobility to learn Latin, dress like romans or negotiate/socialise with their nobility. Instead these unintegrated pops would continue living their life as they always did, as their is no incentive to assimilate/understand the culture of the rulers.

Next the speed of assimilation should reflect the proportion of pops of the primary culture in the region. Ergo the Etruscans and Samnites would assimilate faster than the Lepontic or Italiotian, and much faster than Iberians or Macedonians, from a Roman perspective. This would incentivise the colonisation of conquered territories to speed assimilation, as was the case in Cisalpine Gaul which was granted roman citizenship because it was so heavily Romanised by 49BCE.

The cost of granting citizen/noble rights should also be modified by the number of pops, so that granting rights to a small culture would only have a small malus compared to that of granting to a much larger. This should have a upper limit to the effect so any culture isn't too large to integrate and also only allow the granting of rights if you control a large percentage of the particular pop culture(greater than 60% for example), preventing granting the rights to a large population for a small cost if you only own one of their territories. This would allow integration of pops that would otherwise be overlooked due to the small return on their fixed cost as currently implemented.

As a result this would incentivise when playing as Rome, you would grant rights first to other italic peoples, then Greeks in the south and Celts in the north as historically happened, and not to the Punic or Bohairc who have large populations, but are distant. You would as a result have a strong core, but a weak periphery, encouraging the push to legions over a levy.

The major obstacle in this implementation being slave pops from foreign wars, the only solution I can think of is that the slave pop would assimilate into the locally dominant culture, but this is not currently possible as the system is currently implemented. The only way this might work is through use of hidden events/effects to change the slave pops culture to local dominant culture.




The Diadochi are a special case as historically they never granted rights to their subject people with the exception of the late Macedonian kingdom. Obviously the above systems would discourage the integration of subjects in the old Persian empire as the population of Macedonians to the locals is so great that malus cost is not worth it. The exception being the Greek immigrants that help support the Diadochi states.
Their might be some hidden effects that allows for the speedy assimilation of Greeks in Egypt and all of the East, excepting Asia, Bithynia, Cappadocia Pontica in the Diadochi kingdoms for the first hundred years of the game, before a event changes the cultures of the Diadochi and their Greek pops in the east to Koine/Hellenistic to indicate the development of a new Greek culture and the slowing down of new Greek migrants.
The second change would be replacing the Domestic Laws/Conversion Policy with new laws to inflate the levy multiplier of Diadochi, reduce tax income significantly from integrated pops and slightly increase the output modifier of unintegrated to supplement the economic loss and reduce their happiness slightly as a result. This is more historical scenario as up to 65% of Greek adult males in Ptolemaic Egypt were associated with the military, given tax and political privileges above the natives.
If you decide to grants right to locals such as the Bohairc or Babylonian , Domestic Laws/Conversion Policy would return to the normal version with the default values. This discourage this action, but would be the better long term solution as a Diadochi.

This should all result in much more fragile states, that will wither away from the attrition of constant wars, such as happened to the Seleucids.


The issue that cant be solved with this system is the use of subject people in the army of their ruler. As I suggest implementing the Carthaginians can't use Africans and Iberians as soldiers or the Ptolemies use the Machimoi in Egypt. As subject/auxiliaries can't be implement in the game besides the introduction of a dlc, I've ignored that side of the problem, but solution are welcomed.
 
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Good suggestion! I'd like to make a few comments and further suggestions which I think could improve on it:

Instead these unintegrated pops would continue living their life as they always did, as their is no incentive to assimilate/understand the culture of the rulers.

Some small scale assimilation/conversion should still happen when there are pops of your primary culture there. This should encourage setting up colonies (a currently bad mechanic that needs improving), and lead small scale passive assimilation/conversion - but this should be slow enough that its only a minor effect. This should primarily affect upper-tier pops. (Though it would also require a rework of assimilation - which is good, since then they can make it moddable as well which they forgot to do!)

Their might be some hidden effects that allows for the speedy assimilation of Greeks in Egypt and all of the East, excepting Asia, Bithynia, Cappadocia Pontica in the Diadochi kingdoms for the first hundred years of the game, before a event changes the cultures of the Diadochi and their Greek pops in the east to Koine/Hellenistic to indicate the development of a new Greek culture and the slowing down of new Greek migrants.

This is a great idea, instead of Macedonians everywhere, A Hellenistic culture should appear, with a few exceptions such as in Egypt and Bactria where local versions of Greek culture had already developed pre-Alexander. Though they should still get the option to switch.

This is more historical scenario as up to 65% of Greek adult males in Ptolemaic Egypt were associated with the military, given tax and political privileges above the natives.

Maybe some kind of scaling or temporary levy modifier, which gives you really high levies from your primary culture to represent their military role. But as soon as you start to integrate others - you lose it and gain much less levies. That way we can get rid of those enormous amounts of Macedonian pops in the east, and replace them with a more historical amount.*

*(there is still 0 justification for the crazy amount of Macedonians - for example 357 Macedonians in SEL, compared to 541 Babylonians - would amount to around 2.5-3 million Macedonians! The ration of Macedonians to Babylonians should be somewhere in the range of 1 to 40-50 if one is generous to the Macedonians.)
 
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Thanks.

Some small scale assimilation/conversion should still happen when there are pops of your primary culture there. This should encourage setting up colonies (a currently bad mechanic that needs improving), and lead small scale passive assimilation/conversion - but this should be slow enough that its only a minor effect. This should primarily affect upper-tier pops. (Though it would also require a rework of assimilation - which is good, since then they can make it moddable as well which they forgot to do!)

That's a good idea, it would simulate the granting of rights to small groups/individuals as rewards and happenstance occurs.

Maybe some kind of scaling or temporary levy modifier, which gives you really high levies from your primary culture to represent their military role. But as soon as you start to integrate others - you lose it and gain much less levies. That way we can get rid of those enormous amounts of Macedonian pops in the east, and replace them with a more historical amount.*

Maybe a number of special events for the first integration of a culture, with each event reducing the levy modifier by x% and a increasing temporary unhappiness of your primary culture, mitigated with options such as paying gold, having traits( silver-tongued ), spending political influence, etc.

As for the inaccurate numbers of Macedonians, it might have something to do with the cultural representation of cities on the map. I'm making a mod with more accurate populations and the lack of Greek looking cities in the east isn't that fun. But that's a guess.
 
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The issue that cant be solved with this system is the use of subject people in the army of their ruler. As I suggest implementing the Carthaginians can't use Africans and Iberians as soldiers or the Ptolemies use the Machimoi in Egypt. As subject/auxiliaries can't be implement in the game besides the introduction of a dlc, I've ignored that side of the problem, but solution are welcomed.
For integrated cultures you will levy them while they are being assimilating as It is not immediate.

For non integrated cultures, I suggest a new option to raise auxiliaries for a fee, like mercernaries, from freemen POPs of that non integrated culture. They will have a monthly price, will have a non integrated culture commander, and if they die you will loose POPs. The worst of mercs and levies.
 
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Great thinking. I always felt the culture system is turned on its head

Some sort of auxiliary from unintegrated cultures would be a great addition to this in order to still make conquest military viable
 
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Another way could be this: add special laws after integration that entice assimilation. That way they wouldn't really need to rework anything. Just make it so that cities have more assimilation while remote areas do not or maybe do but on a small scale. It could work like EU4 where you can still replace an integrated culture with another one in any province you would like.
 
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Great thinking. I always felt the culture system is turned on its head

Some sort of auxiliary from unintegrated cultures would be a great addition to this in order to still make conquest military viable
Basically the foederati system. Maybe tribal pops would finally be useful for civilized nations this way. You should make it a seperate suggestion, it sounds good.
 
So if you want a culture to survive in an expansionist realm, you have to leave them as unintegrated noncitizens?

I do think cultures in your group should be easier/faster to assimilate.
 
Etruscan ceased to be a living language more or less by the time the western empire fell...
Simply put, the greeks did not abandon their language and customs because they were the cultural powerhouse of the time...the romans, the conquerors, were "conquered" by greek culture.
Roman nobles spoke greek as a second language.
Greek speaking provinces were also much more populous and advanced than their western counterparts, they had a built-in resistance to latinization. After a hundred years Greeks did think of themselves as "romans", tho.
 
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Cultural integration opens the gate to assimilation as the OP suggests, but the cultures integrated will have different level of resistance to assimilation.
  • If in the same culture group, they will have low level of resistance to assimilation.
  • If in different culture group and higher cultural level, high level of resistance to assimilation.
Cultural level is defined is the ratio of (citizens + nobles) / (all pops of that culture). High or low level is defined by comparison with the assimilating culture.

If you give higher civic rights to a culture, it may be more difficult to assimilate.

All of this is more for RP than for game play.
 
Cultural integration opens the gate to assimilation as the OP suggests, but the cultures integrated will have different level of resistance to assimilation.
  • If in the same culture group, they will have low level of resistance to assimilation.
  • If in different culture group and higher cultural level, high level of resistance to assimilation.
Cultural level is defined is the ratio of (citizens + nobles) / (all pops of that culture). High or low level is defined by comparison with the assimilating culture.

If you give higher civic rights to a culture, it may be more difficult to assimilate.

All of this is more for RP than for game play.
Greeks integrated very well and quickly into the empire...basically they were "romans" but retained most of their greek culture. Romans were the ones hellenicized. How are you going to simulate that

As of now, giving noble rights to every single greek culture group seems too penalizing
 
Greeks integrated very well and quickly into the empire...basically they were "romans" but retained most of their greek culture. Romans were the ones hellenicized. How are you going to simulate that

As of now, giving noble rights to every single greek culture group seems too penalizing
Well, if you conquer Greece but do not integrate none of their cultures, they will never assimilate following OP suggestion. They will be romans but up to freemen civic status and keep their culture.

About changing the primary culture of The Roman Republic, that is something that is beign discussed in this other thread:

 
Well, if you conquer Greece but do not integrate none of their cultures, they will never assimilate following OP suggestion. They will be romans but up to freemen civic status and keep their culture.

About changing the primary culture of The Roman Republic, that is something that is beign discussed in this other thread:

But that's not what happened...we could say the empire had 2 dominant "cultures" in the west and east...but they were all romans.
I do not think cultures in game should be as monolithic as those in modern times

*maybe for the time period this game is set in is a bit too early
 
But that's not what happened...we could say the empire had 2 dominant "cultures" in the west and east...but they were all romans.
I do not think cultures in game should be as monolithic as those in modern times

*maybe for the time period this game is set in is a bit too early
If we use the cultural level ratio, we could have a very slow assimilation or no assimilation at all for cultures that have the same cultural level.

For culture or culture group distinction, I like for gameplay reasons that the integration and assimilation is made on the culture level.
 
If we use the cultural level ratio, we could have a very slow assimilation or no assimilation at all for cultures that have the same cultural level.

For culture or culture group distinction, I like for gameplay reasons that the integration and assimilation is made on the culture level.
Just listened to a podcast from a professor, the lesson fell on this exact topic...
We should not take it as an exact analogy for modern times but anyway...in the roman empire "culture" and race/nationality were not monolitic and mutually exclusive, in the later years many new citizens knew their origins very well (and often mantained their original gods for some generations) but they fully recognized themselves as romans .There was this example of this optimates from north africa, a professor in latin language and literature, who knew his ancestors were mori (aka berbers).

Two of the most important ways to obtain citizenship was through military service or having enough gold and prestige to buy you citizenship. Greeks and gauls could become senators by the time the republic became an empire, although there was some resistance from the senatorial elite.

Without scomodating Caracalla's edict we can safely assume integration from peregrini to roman citizens was a slow (but not too slow, a handful of generations at most) and SPONTANEOUS process.
When faced with the reality of the situation, institutional adjustments ensued or were forced on the elite.

TL, DR
Imo OP's idea of tying integration to "accepted" cultures only, through a political decision, is fundamentally wrong and a step in the wrong direction.
With all due respect for OP' persona, of course.
 
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Just listened to a podcast from a professor, the lesson fell on this exact topic...
We should not take it as an exact analogy for modern times but anyway...in the roman empire "culture" and race/nationality were not monolitic and mutually exclusive, in the later years many new citizens knew their origins very well (and often mantained their original gods for some generations) but they fully recognized themselves as romans .There was this example of this optimates from north africa, a professor in latin language and literature, who knew his ancestors were mori (aka berbers).

Two of the most important ways to obtain citizenship was through military service or having enough gold and prestige to buy you citizenship. Greeks and gauls could become senators by the time the republic became an empire, although there was some resistance from the senatorial elite.

Without scomodating Caracalla's edict we can safely assume integration from peregrini to roman citizens was a slow (but not too slow, a handful of generations at most) and SPONTANEOUS process.
When faced with the reality of the situation, institutional adjustments ensued or were forced on the elite.

TL, DR
Imo OP's idea of tying integration to "accepted" cultures only, through a political decision, is fundamentally wrong and a step in the wrong direction.
With all due respect for OP' persona, of course.
As players we can reproduce what happened or we can play differently. To have this option, there has to be an assimilation and a citizenship mechanism that can part ways.

The decision to integrate can be political or not. Now, It is mostly a player decision (although in Republics the faction objective Revocation by the Optimates/Traditionalists or the Grant Rights for the Democrats/Boni involves denying/granting integration rights to a culture).

The OP questions the rationale to keep assimilation for all cultures not integrated and suggests to assimilate only the integrated cultures. For me, it feels right that when a culture is accepted is also assimilated with time. While non accepted or excluded cultures end up forming ghettos. Their only way to citizenship is to disguise their origin and buy their citizenship (de facto they are hiding their culture).

About the political nature of the decision, I agree with you that it is not a political decision, but a social, cultural and even economical one. Should the player have any say on the decision to integrate a culture or this decision should be fully automated depending on all these factors? Like the OP, I would like that all these factors affected the ability to integrate and the speed of assimilation of each culture. A good example of this are the cultural decisions that speed up the integration process.
 
As players we can reproduce what happened or we can play differently. To have this option, there has to be an assimilation and a citizenship mechanism that can part ways.

The decision to integrate can be political or not. Now, It is mostly a player decision (although in Republics the faction objective Revocation by the Optimates/Traditionalists or the Grant Rights for the Democrats/Boni involves denying/granting integration rights to a culture).

The OP questions the rationale to keep assimilation for all cultures not integrated and suggests to assimilate only the integrated cultures. For me, it feels right that when a culture is accepted is also assimilated with time. While non accepted or excluded cultures end up forming ghettos. Their only way to citizenship is to disguise their origin and buy their citizenship (de facto they are hiding their culture).

About the political nature of the decision, I agree with you that it is not a political decision, but a social, cultural and even economical one. Should the player have any say on the decision to integrate a culture or this decision should be fully automated depending on all these factors? Like the OP, I would like that all these factors affected the ability to integrate and the speed of assimilation of each culture. A good example of this are the cultural decisions that speed up the integration process.
As I already said, once conquered practically everyone on the empire was on the long path to citizenship, how many cultures would you "integrate" at once?
They romanized and with this process they integrated and with time granted political rights, not the other way around.
There was not a big brother supervising the "cultural integration", it was spontaneous. They did keep registers of peregrini and families with granted citizenship, which for the bureaucracy of the time was an incredibly complex and expensive process abandoned in later years.

From Hispania to north Africa and to germans to levantines...

I do agree that integrating cultures should not stop the assimilation process, but what OP is proposing is not the right direction.
 
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They romanized and with this process they integrated and with time granted political rights,
This is the game as it is now.

There is the shortcut of the player decision to integrate a culture, and they remain non assimilated because the state recognizes them as a valid non primary culture.

Fine. I was maybe applying modern concepts to ancient times.

The Roman case is explained on the game. But is this universal? I do not think the Diadochis nations were going through this loop. The population did not assimilate to Macedonian and start having citizenship. They remained non assimilated even if the primary culture is Macedonian.

how many cultures would you "integrate" at once?
The roman case was unique because it integrated almost all cultures. Maybe, we could give Rome a bonus to allow for integrating more cultures. You can integrate as much as you want.