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What we're aiming for is to give the player the agency to try and direct their country the way they please - but not with any guaranteed success. You make the choices, but that also means you have to deal with the consequences and reactions from the people in your nation who disagree with those choices and who might seek to overturn them.

I will say that I am not stating unequivocally that there will not be any autonomous construction of buildings though - just that the player will never be completely unable to interact with the building system, as it's such an integral part of the game's core loop.
Disliking this a lot. Capitalists building factories is kind of what capitalism was in this period, and the growth of capitalism was one of, if not the key features of the period.

Even under a Free Trade system the player should be able to build state-operated military factories, but capitalists really should be able to build consumer goods factories without player intervention. Otherwise you're making a game about the industrial revolution and the growth of capitalism, without the capitalism or the driving forces of the industrial revolution.

Not having absolute control over every aspect of your country's economy is one of the things that makes Victoria 2 interesting and challenging. Having something as utterly absurd as Stellaris's economy, with every civilization, including ruthless capitalist corporations, having an absolute top-down command economy, would wreck the feel of the game.

(Yes, I know, it's early days on the game design. But I've been chastised by Paradox customer support for not having objected to a HOI4 feature years before buying the game, and not having done so voided any objections I might have. So I'm going on record as early as physically possible.)
 
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Disliking this a lot. Capitalists building factories is kind of what capitalism was in this period, and the growth of capitalism was one of, if not the key features of the period.

Even under a Free Trade system the player should be able to build state-operated military factories, but capitalists really should be able to build consumer goods factories without player intervention. Otherwise you're making a game about the industrial revolution and the growth of capitalism, without the capitalism or the driving forces of the industrial revolution.

Not having absolute control over every aspect of your country's economy is one of the things that makes Victoria 2 interesting and challenging. Having something as utterly absurd as Stellaris's economy, with every civilization, including ruthless capitalist corporations, having an absolute top-down command economy, would wreck the feel of the game.

(Yes, I know, it's early days on the game design. But I've been chastised by Paradox customer support for not having objected to a HOI4 feature years before buying the game, and not having done so voided any objections I might have. So I'm going on record as early as physically possible.)
The player is not just the state. It's kind of a mixture of state and society. The capitalists' investments are also simulated. The economy is still abstract. One does not build a specific clothing factory that competes with other clothing factories within the country, but simulates the sector as such. The competition takes place only in relation to foreign countries. Even in the predecessor, the factories of one country did not compete with each other.

And it is simply not true that the industrial trail took place independently of the other framework conditions. The respective groups of influence used the state to shape the situation in such a way that it was in their interests. The structure of a sector can be understood here in such a way that a complex is created within the given framework. Depending on the framework conditions, funds from the state coffers or from that of the capitalists are used directly. And depending on the framework, either the state or the owners generate the profits. or make losses.
 
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The player is not just the state. It's kind of a mixture of state and society. The capitalists' investments are also simulated. The economy is still abstract. One does not build a specific clothing factory that competes with other clothing factories within the country, but simulates the sector as such. The competition takes place only in relation to foreign countries. Even in the predecessor, the factories of one country did not compete with each other.
If I am not mistaken, they did. If the second factory got built in the same country, supply of the goods might have exceeded demand, both factories would end up with unsold goods and eventually, that new second factory could lead to downfall of both factories.
 
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If I am not mistaken, they did. If the second factory got built in the same country, supply of the goods might have exceeded demand, both factories would end up with unsold goods and eventually, that new second factory could lead to downfall of both factories.
This is not a competition, but a distribution of profits. In such a case, both factories are exactly the same. which is ok too, since it again simulates the sector and not a single factory, just in a different way.

What I mean is that one way or another the micro level is not being simulated. And on the macro level, the individual decisions are of no interest. It doesn't destroy the immersion just because the player sets the factory instead of the RNG. In the longer article it is described that depending on the type of economy, different funds are used and different groups benefit. In the case of a free economy one might get access to the budget of the capitalists to build the "factory", but most of the profits come back to the capitalists. If the market isn't protected, they'll pay the losses for a while before going broke. With a state economy, you can see the profits and losses directly in the state budget and also pay for the construction of the factory from the state pocket.
 
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This is not a competition, but a distribution of profits. In such a case, both factories are exactly the same. which is ok too, since it again simulates the sector and not a single factory, just in a different way.
Well, if one factory was making profits, but then another appeared and now both of them are losing money I call that competition :)
 
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If I am not mistaken, they did. If the second factory got built in the same country, supply of the goods might have exceeded demand, both factories would end up with unsold goods and eventually, that new second factory could lead to downfall of both factories.
In V3 overproduction leads to lower prices, which might increase sales. But it is likely possible for the player to decrease production anyway.
 
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This is not a competition, but a distribution of profits. In such a case, both factories are exactly the same. which is ok too, since it again simulates the sector and not a single factory, just in a different way.

What I mean is that one way or another the micro level is not being simulated. And on the macro level, the individual decisions are of no interest. It doesn't destroy the immersion just because the player sets the factory instead of the RNG. In the longer article it is described that depending on the type of economy, different funds are used and different groups benefit. In the case of a free economy one might get access to the budget of the capitalists to build the "factory", but most of the profits come back to the capitalists. If the market isn't protected, they'll pay the losses for a while before going broke. With a state economy, you can see the profits and losses directly in the state budget and also pay for the construction of the factory from the state pocket.

Which is not really Capitalism anyway, even if the game simulated laissez-faire capitalism. The different industries producing the same categories of goods with limited demand should attempt to compete with one another, hoping to take market shares by cutting costs or seeking higher prices to increase their profits. Some would become bigger and more powerful, while the others would either hold minority market shares, close down, be bought off, or find a niche market that they would dominate. Only when demand for particular goods was so large, cooperation between owners would become beneficial - with the non-capitalistic consequences it would lead to: price- and cost-fixing, cartels, monopolies, insider tradings.

In Victoria 2 (and most games simulating that era), we do not have that - all industries serve the State and whatever the State asks that the demand should be filled. If we need ciment, we'll build ciment factories. Which is far, far from free capitalism. In real-life almost all business owners of that time saw the State as something to benefit them, serving to create winning conditions to support businesses, create opportunities, and maximize profits. What was produced was controled by the "invisible hand of the market", save for a select few industries. In fact, capitalist interest groups would strongly dislike to see the State create its own companies, rather than go through procurement orders.

Example: Railways. Even in Czarist Russia it wasn't the Russian State who built the Trans-Siberian Railways and created the companies, but private companies (which were indeed encouraged and, sometimes, even under the silent private ownership of Sergei Witte, with the hope to create a larger capitalist class in Russia). While the State brought the money and contracted the orders, it was the private companies who provided the actual service of building the rails - and their owners who gained the profits.

Ideally in Vic3, my opinion is POPs demand should feed the AI's attempts to create their own businesses through their amassed capital. Unless a governing party has an ideology of State Capitalism, instead I would like to see the player place procurement orders. rather than build factories: I need x amount of that strategic good in my Strategic Reserve, I order that amount and the business class creates ventures to fulfill that demand - and different conditions and costs. Those who constantly make a profit thrive, and those who do not... disappear or change production. And the harder it is to fulfull that ask... the higher the price.
 
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The player is not just the state. It's kind of a mixture of state and society. The capitalists' investments are also simulated. The economy is still abstract. One does not build a specific clothing factory that competes with other clothing factories within the country, but simulates the sector as such. The competition takes place only in relation to foreign countries. Even in the predecessor, the factories of one country did not compete with each other.

And it is simply not true that the industrial trail took place independently of the other framework conditions. The respective groups of influence used the state to shape the situation in such a way that it was in their interests. The structure of a sector can be understood here in such a way that a complex is created within the given framework. Depending on the framework conditions, funds from the state coffers or from that of the capitalists are used directly. And depending on the framework, either the state or the owners generate the profits. or make losses.
I'm not sure what you're trying to say, but it doesn't seem to have anything to do with my post.
 
Well, if one factory was making profits, but then another appeared and now both of them are losing money I call that competition :)

In the real world, both are not exactly the same and do not undercut each other to the point of death. From a certain point in time, the prices are automatically adjusted, regardless of whether you are officially negotiating a cartel or not. Or one factory sits on a much higher capital stock and hopes to completely displace the other. But that is not simulated either.

Either way, it is an abstraction that does not go down to the smallest link, but acts with larger units. Personally, I can do without the RNG decisions.
 
Either way, it is an abstraction that does not go down to the smallest link, but acts with larger units. Personally, I can do without the RNG decisions.
In Vic2 how demand was met and how profits were distributed were deterministic (again if I remember it correctly). Not being able to affect something does not mean it is random. Unless you play authoritarian state, you may very well know what your pops are going to do and still not be able to make them change their mind. At least not directly.
 
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I'm not sure what you're trying to say, but it doesn't seem to have anything to do with my post.
The Stellaris economy has no system of supply and demand in our sense at all. There is only a penalty if a need is not met and only up to a certain limit.

Yes, the player cannot influence everything here either. I just don't know how you imagine it, how it should be simulated. Should the game simulate every single capitalist on the market who offers different products at different production costs? A game like that can't do that. It deals more or less with whole groups. I have described the difference between different forms of economy. It's the type of funding and profit distribution.
 
The Stellaris economy has no system of supply and demand in our sense at all. There is only a penalty if a need is not met and only up to a certain limit.

Yes, the player cannot influence everything here either. I just don't know how you imagine it, how it should be simulated. Should the game simulate every single capitalist on the market who offers different products at different production costs? A game like that can't do that. It deals more or less with whole groups. I have described the difference between different forms of economy. It's the type of funding and profit distribution.
Make sure the toffs stay better off
Make sure the money stops at the top
Take every penny
From the hands of the many
And give everything to the few.
 
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When it comes to building factories I think their should be a set ideal factories based on the provinces resources. Then there is a percentage of odds a Capitalist will build the ideal factory going down the more laissez faire an economy is. I think the subsidy system should be for encouraging Capitalist to develop the ideal factory and to ensure ideal factories are maintained. To balance out some of the inefficiencies of the laissez faire economy they should get wealth and tech boosts since free market economies do tend to be wealthier and more dynamic than controlled economies.

I think starting a factory makes it state state owned, but the factory can later be sold to capitalists and vice versa factories can be appropriated from capitalists. I think state factories should send their profits and resources directly to the state, but are overall less efficient and if they're a net loss the state eats the cost. While capitalist factories produce more overall wealth and resources and the state doesn't eat any of the losses, but don't send any wealth and resources to the state, but wealth has to be taxed and resources are sold on the market where they have to be bought.

Although this whole argument could be redundant if the economic system has been overhauled to something almost entirely different from Vicky 2.
 
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  • Standard of Living is mostly based on a POP's Wealth, which is determined by your sources of revenue minus your expenses. This can be a salary from your job, stipends and wages from dependents in countries where women and children can work (or if they're receiving welfare payments), and dividends from buildings you own. Increasing wages, lowering taxes, and increasing the supply of goods (thus lowering the prices and therefore the lifestyle expenses) will all generally raise Standard of Living. Standard of Living affects POP Loyalty and Population Growth.
  • Your GDP measures how much you produce and affects your Great Power ranking, but it doesn't necessarily reflect how much money you, as a player, have to spend. The Ottomans, for example, start with a very inefficient tax system, so they have a small state budget compared to their GDP.
  • Capitalists work completely differently from Vicky 2. Capitalism isn't "Let The AI Do It Mode." Instead, Capitalists (and sometimes Aristocrats depending on your laws) invest profits from buildings they own into a new resource pool separate from state funds called the Investment Pool, which you can only spend on certain things based on your laws and economic system. So you are still personally directing the expansion of industry in a capitalist economy, with some restrictions.
    • Prices of goods are based on Supply and Demand. It's not event-based with arbitrary starting prices like EU4. Full market simulation. POPs and Industries will place Buy orders while Industries will also place Sell orders for finished goods. There's a screen that lets you see what are currently the five most under-produced and the five most overproduced goods in your market, so you can set up trade deals or expand industries to meet demand better.
    • The other factor that affects this is Infrastructure. Having insufficient infrastructure will make it harder to get goods from a given State to your wider market efficiently.
    • Around 50 trade goods divided into Staples - Consumed by all POPs for daily needs, Industrial Goods - Consumed by industries to make other finished goods, Luxury Goods - consumed by POPs with higher Standard of Living, and Military Goods - Used to create military units including infantry, artillery, ships, and later tanks and planes.
    • Trade Goods (incomplete list, mostly guessing based on icons): Tools, Glass, Wood, Coal, Luxury Furniture, Porcelain, Silk, Iron, Chemicals, Meat, Cannons, Ammunition, Fish, Sulfur, Basic Furniture, Clipper Ships, Ironclads, Luxury Clothing, Paper, Artillery Shells, Fruit, Tea, Tobacco, Baked Goods, Coffee, Wine, Steel, Standard Clothing, Guns, Grain, Automobiles, Alcohol, Cotton
    • Production buildings have resource inputs and outputs, Throughput rating, and pay wages to all employed POPs. If their output can sell for more than their inputs, they will generate dividends that are paid to the owners and increase their Wealth. Otherwise, they will need to be subsidized or else they will fail. Each also has a personal cash reserve, presumably so it can run at a loss for a bit without subsidies.
    • Production Methods affect how buildings operate. For instance, a workshop can be Privately Owned, belong to a Merchant Guild, Publicly Traded, Government Run, or a Worker Cooperative. This affects what kind of POPs are employed here, what wages they are paid, and who collects the dividends/profits. i.e. Privately Owned workshops will employ Capitalists who get most of the wealth generated with the workers getting only wages, whereas in a Worker Cooperative, the people doing the work own the workshop and split the Wealth it generates evenly.
    • Government Run industries have mandatory subsidies, meaning any losses they incur will come directly out of your national treasury rather than letting them go out of business. But you can also pocket any profits.
    • You can have a Statist, command economy without being Communist. Communism itself, while it often goes hand-in-hand with a command economy, is now more directly related to distribution of wealth and political power. Communism is not when the government does things. The government doing more things doesn't make it more communister.
    • POPs can promote/demote and some types are more likely than others. Engineers and Shopkeepers are more likely to become Capitalists, for instance.
    • Command Economies do not allow Capitalists or Aristocrats to be employed in your nation, so they will have to find a new job or leave. They also get fewer foreign Trade Routes to work with, but can enact Encourage Consumption, Discourage Consumption, and Consumption Taxes more cheaply. They can embargo all goods and they can (must) subsidize everything.
    • You need to have a Command Economy to switch Production Method to Government Control.
    • Free Trade gives you more import/export routes, reduces loan interest rates, allows you to subsidize only Service Industries and Infrastructure, and increases the amount of wealth Capitalists contribute to the Investment Pool.
    • Isolation cuts off all foreign trade (so you can only operate within your Market/Customs Union), you can embargo all goods, you can subsidize all buildings, and both Capitalists and Aristocrats will contribute to the Investment Pool.
 
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I quoted from the journalist's reddit post. This means, for example: I can of course start building state factories with Russia at the beginning of the game. They make me profit directly. But I probably won't have any money for that. So I have to somehow get to the budget of the capitalists and landowners. But with them I can only build factories that belong to the capitalists. I can tax their owners
 
When it comes to building factories I think their should be a set ideal factories based on the provinces resources. Then there is a percentage of odds a Capitalist will build the ideal factory going down the more laissez faire an economy is. I think the subsidy system should be for encouraging Capitalist to develop the ideal factory and to ensure ideal factories are maintained. To balance out some of the inefficiencies of the laissez faire economy they should get wealth and tech boosts since free market economies do tend to be wealthier and more dynamic than controlled economies.
Province resources alone are not enough. Demand/supply balance of the goods need to be a large factor. I am not sure about randomness in choice either. I would prefer capitalists to build the factory that would provide best ROI (computed from the current state of market), province resources would go into this calculations (assuming they provide some bonus). it's not ideal in a long-term because it would tend to produce cycles - if everyone starts producing goods in demand it will soon lead to oversupply and factories start losing money. This is close to the real-world behaviour though.

I think starting a factory makes it state state owned, but the factory can later be sold to capitalists and vice versa factories can be appropriated from capitalists. I think state factories should send their profits and resources directly to the state, but are overall less efficient and if they're a net loss the state eats the cost. While capitalist factories produce more overall wealth and resources and the state doesn't eat any of the losses, but don't send any wealth and resources to the state, but wealth has to be taxed and resources are sold on the market where they have to be bought.
I like this idea. It works as a way for player to nudge economy in the desired direction. One could build seemingly unattractive industry in anticipation of some changes in the world and later sell it to capitalists (possibly with profit). On the other side, the state may also purchase some unprofitable industries from the capitalists if it wants to keep them running.
 
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I quoted from the journalist's reddit post. This means, for example: I can of course start building state factories with Russia at the beginning of the game. They make me profit directly. But I probably won't have any money for that. So I have to somehow get to the budget of the capitalists and landowners. But with them I can only build factories that belong to the capitalists. I can tax their owners
That's all good. The part I don't like is if the state can tell capitalists what exactly to build. State building whatever it wants with the state money is fine.
 
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That's all good. The part I don't like is if the state can tell capitalists what exactly to build. State building whatever it wants with the state money is fine.
I don't see a big problem with that. as I said, it is an abstraction. In the way you play, the capitalists would either use RNG or go for the product that promises the highest profits this week. The AI would not be able to calculate in the long term. The Ki would not attempt to force other capitalists out of the market either. The individual pop would not try to displace the other pops through price dumping or better quality. The factory system does not offer that at all. I better work with a model like that.
 
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