The First Þing of Eilif II’s Reign – May 964
The First Þing of Eilif II’s Reign – May 964
So there was enough feedback and then debate on the questions raised, especially on the merchant republic, to warrant a Þing being called this time, with topic-by-topic treatment. The first in almost 20 years, and the first of Eilif II's reign.
Ch127 Q1: Dorpat to Styrbjörn. He was due to inherit this anyway and Styrbjörn didn’t have a very good opinion of Eilif, so I ‘what the helled’ and gave it to him. Fair enough, or a mistake? One thought was he might be made King of Finland in time, but will cross that bridge when I come to it.



Ch127 Q2: Kingdom of Finland. Eilif now has the cash and piety to do this now. Should he, or maybe hold off? If he does, should he keep it, or perhaps give it to his heir (ie like an early inheritance)?
Ch127 Q3. Merchant Republic. I quickly read Wiki the Red on this, but have never done it before. It seems to be something like first create the duchy, and then allocate it to a lord mayor of/in a coastal county? Or is it more complicated than that? If that’s pretty much it, do people think it should be a higher or lower priority than founding Finland?
All are tribal, none have a second holding yet, but Reval does have a Level IV Stone Hillfort.
The owners of the counties are as follows:
Toll, who owns Reval, is still tribal and has two lieges between him and the Emperor. So can't revoke his title and I'm assuming even if he did go feudal and could build a city, he would make any appointments anyway, nor could I make it the capital? So does that effectively mean I couldn't create a merchant republic, or yet, anyway?
As to other options, the current demesne list is included below: most are inland counties. In the Duchy of Livonia I do still hold Laanemaa, having given Dorpat to Prince Styrbjorn. I need one more Livonian county to declare the Duchy.

General


OK, I'm holding off a little before I restart so I can confirm a few of the above discussion points: the advice of the wise is always welcomed.
So there was enough feedback and then debate on the questions raised, especially on the merchant republic, to warrant a Þing being called this time, with topic-by-topic treatment. The first in almost 20 years, and the first of Eilif II's reign.
Ch127 Q1: Dorpat to Styrbjörn. He was due to inherit this anyway and Styrbjörn didn’t have a very good opinion of Eilif, so I ‘what the helled’ and gave it to him. Fair enough, or a mistake? One thought was he might be made King of Finland in time, but will cross that bridge when I come to it.
He can at least decide which ones he keeps and handing out the excess will help him quickly build relationships with key nobles, I'm thinking. Not sure about the other excess ones, but I'm tempted to 'fill' Styrbjorn up first.Q1 I like this decision. How are you going to do other excess counties? Spread among sons or just to heir? All to heir is better game play but you will probably have to give away holdings when Styrbjörn inherits. I like idea of giving sons property in different areas.
True, but RP-wise it makes him a freer agent during his apprenticeship as Emperor, so could end up causing a bit of 'fun' and making him less a malleable gameplay cypher for the player/ruler, which I don't mind. Until he turns on the seduction focus and gets the pox, etc!I'm not 100% sure about this but one problem with this is you will probably have less control about your heir's education since he's a ruler somewhere with a regent now. Other than this, I don't see any problems with this.
Will have to try to remember that guardianship point, but I'm OK with a bit of chaos in the interim.1) Should mostly be fine but as others pointed out it can be convenient to exercise control when they're young. Maybe be purposeful to become his guardian when he's six.
Sounds like good clean fun to me!Generally, if you want to control your heir, keeping him unlanded is the wisest choice. If he's landed, anything is possible. He may achieve great victories if given the chance, may make friends across the whole realm, be in a happy marriage with great children of his own.
Or he can become a crippled, drunk failure of a man, constantly attempting to seduce your vassals' wives and daughters, his children in useless marriages.
He can die in a raid, be a tyrant, waste his inheritance...
Anything's possible. That's the beauty of CK II.
Ch127 Q2: Kingdom of Finland. Eilif now has the cash and piety to do this now. Should he, or maybe hold off? If he does, should he keep it, or perhaps give it to his heir (ie like an early inheritance)?
Just the Gardariki one at the moment, with Sweden held by the king's brother Sigurdr. Styrbjorn would be very young, so as long as he can control it, I'm leaning to Eilif retaining it himself, so he can make the conquest decisions.Q2 How many king titles do you currently hold? Vassals get upset if emperor holds too many kingdoms and duchies. Giving to Styrbjörn, raises question is he strong enough to hold it against his future vassals. But a strong king could conquer the de jure properties outside of empire.
Hmm, a line-ball call re pro and con there, it seems.If you give Finland to Styrbjörn can't he make wars on the remaining Finnish counties on his own so Eilif doesn't get the impact of the aggression himself? them being rather worthless.
They are mainly Suomenusko I believe, but will have to check. Finland is an area I'd like to convert more to Russian possession before the horse lords and Aztecs arrive. Eilif is still comparatively young, so maybe using Finland sooner rather than later might be good?What are the religions of other realms in the de jure kingdom of Finland? If there are Norse, by creating the kingdom now it would be possible to ask for their peaceful vassalization. Otherwise as I said I normally wait for the heir to become the new ruler to create so they have instant prestige. If it's created now, it's not a bad idea to gift it to the heir so he starts accumulating some prestige already. But, if you give the kingdom title to the heir HE might have to ask the diplomatic vassalization requests since he holds the title and I don't know if the AI does that or not.
This was my main aim in doing these Finnish conquests ahead of other short-term options I could have taken. It seems a let-down not to use it sooner rather than later.2) It should give you free CBs and an opportunity to ask to vassalize independent rulers. So I'd say yes.
Hmm, good points, especially re the Estonian MR. <scratches head with indecision>Finland is quite poor, so it shouldn't be too powerful even if unified. Still, giving Styrbjörn the kingdom might enable him to move against the remaining Finns, which would turn into priority targets for him.
Besides, he's going to return the kingdom into the empire's hands once he takes over. Might make for a nice family tradition (until it's inevitably screwed over during some inheritance).
Keep in mind that if you do this, then there would be complications for an Estonian merchant republic.
Good question.Will it impact asking peaceful vassalization? (since the title will be held by not the emperor)
Aha, this is what I had in mind.Yeah. If peaceful vassalization is to be pursued, then the vassalization requests have to be done before handing over the title, while Eilif is the actual de-jure-liege.
Agree. Eilif could create and use it, then either just hang onto it or hand over to Styrbjorn when he is older and better prepared to rule it, perhaps. Will consider.My worry is that a child King of Finland will not be strong enough to hold the title and we will again have an Eilif in supreme control but vassals holding an heir Styrbjörn captive.
Ch127 Q3. Merchant Republic. I quickly read Wiki the Red on this, but have never done it before. It seems to be something like first create the duchy, and then allocate it to a lord mayor of/in a coastal county? Or is it more complicated than that? If that’s pretty much it, do people think it should be a higher or lower priority than founding Finland?
Thanks for the view, will factor it in.Q3 I have never established merchant republic but higher priority than Finnish Kingdom.
A snapshot of the three counties below.Are there any cities in those provinces? If so, whom are they held by? If there aren't any cities but there's a tribe, you can go with the creation of a castle from a tribe which auto creates a temple and a city in the empty holdings. In any case, (by creating from tribe, or if there's already a city in one of the provinces that you personally hold), you should right click on that city holding and make it into county capital. Thus, when you grant this county to a person of your liking (a content Germanic Norse with high stewardship, and remember to marry him first to a fertile, preferably lustful Germanic Norse woman with high stewardship before granting him the county) he will become the Lord Mayor of a Great City. Once this is complete, also grant him the duchy at which point it will become a merchant republic.
I'm not sure if it'll work if you just give a lord mayor of a city barony the duchy. It might, but it might not. I think he first needs to have a county level title.

The owners of the counties are as follows:

Per above, am I blocked from doing this at the moment?3) Like @diskoerekto, I'm pretty sure they need to be a city-based ruler of a county to receive the duchy. The process was explained well above. I'd prioritize this, as it will help bring in money.
Per above, the only title I think I can revoke in Estonia would be Ingria and it would take some time and money to build it up to Fort Level IV.On second reading and further thought, it seems like for the merchant republic the easiest way would be just to revoke the title of a mayor in the Duchy of Estonia in a country that you directly hold. If all 3 counties in the duchy are held by others, then we might have to look at another duchy for the merchant republic. Which counties except the core ones do we hold personally?
As to other options, the current demesne list is included below: most are inland counties. In the Duchy of Livonia I do still hold Laanemaa, having given Dorpat to Prince Styrbjorn. I need one more Livonian county to declare the Duchy.

Can we simplify by making an existing mayor Count and then Duke if wanted? Could any coastal county work or does it have to be in Estonia?
This I'm not really sure, but if you just gave the county to a Mayor, there's a chance he'll just be a count and give the city to a new mayor since it's wrong holding type. About merchant republics it can be any coastal county, but merchant republics have little use for inland counties so most suitable duchies are small duchies with all counties coastal.
I think promoting a mayor or a bishop changes the county type and makes his holding the new county seat. The mayor would become a lord mayor and a bishop would become a prince bishop.
This was the thing that I wasn't sure, if this works then it will be much easier
You may want to make the merchant republic (it probably can be a single county), a vassal of a vassal. The merchant republic will always have a negative opinion modifier for being wrong government type and be a source of discontent. If you put the republic on the border, with deep pockets the republic may be aggressive. In my Avon game, Ragusa has conquered provinces two away from the coast.
So something might be done with Laanemaa over time, but it could be a bit iffy and perhaps unstable? Though if I retain the Kingdom of Finland (if created) then that aspects might be neutralised?To add my opinion to the previous discussion: A mayor becomes lord mayor if he gains a county title.
A merchant republic is created if a coastal lord mayor gains a duchy title. If the title is Venice or Ikh Bogd (in Mongolia) doesn't matter in that moment, but it might later on. So all you need to do is give a coastal mayor lordship over the county in which his town is located, then whatever duchy you've got at hand. Problems arise if he loses his capital though, as it will then revert to another part of the duchy, the de-jure capital if possible. If that other county is inland, then the merchants suddenly disband and you've got a normal republic with little use. As the Russians are quite fond of infighting for now, it might be a good idea to give your chosen mayor more than one coastal town to hold.
Giving a coastal mayor an inland county (without the associated town, or that becomes his inland capital!) and then a random duchy should work, too, but no guarantee for that.
Giving him a random duchy will annoy the people who think it is theirs, while giving him Estonia would make him de-jure vassal of Finland - then it might be a better idea not to create the kingdom, for either your new merchant republic will annoy the king of Finland and he'll slowly take the initially very weak republic over or you'll have to transfer it to Finland, where it offers no benefit for the Fylkirate.
But the biggest upsides of having a merchant republic vassal is the increased taxes they give and the number of ships. Making a vassal of a vassal would make those go to the vassal instead. The upsides are big enough to make the wrong gov type relation penalty bearable. Yes, they occasionally conquer provinces up to 2 sea zones away. If they can thrive so, the trade zone will get bigger too.
So it will be problem-free if the duchy is all coastal counties?
Taking everything above into account, it looks like "I'm not there yet", and if it is to happen, it might be in Livonia (eventually) rather than Estonia (if I hold onto Laanemaa)? Or should I look at conquering something already eligible elsewhere?In theory, yes. In practice, that would last as long as the republic can actually defend itself, which it won't in the beginning. If it's to be Estonia, then the Finnish kingdom title should definitely not be given away as that would spell the merchants' doom. Others will need claims first, which might be enough time for the merchants to gain enough strength/wealth.
Moot until i can actually get an MR going.Giving the castles in the duchy to the Doge as vassals might prop his defense up a bit maybe?
General
Hmm, unless there's more to come out, I don't think the MR seems like it's possible yet anyway. I might just go for Finland in the interim.About priority, I think the order of this or the founding of Finland matters much so you can do as you like. If you don't already hold a city (I doubt so since that's a wrong type of holding, so it should be coming from the latest conquest which probably brought a tribe if I saw that right) the merchant republic might have to wait until you do (the upgrading of castles from tribes and spontaneous creation of cities and temples in the meanwhile only works when the province is your religion) so you can go ahead with the Kingdom of Finland. One thing I'm not sure (but I doubt) is if you can directly make a city that you don't personally hold the capital of the county. If you can, then you don't have to wait until you hold a city personally.
For some reason I explained the process like crap, it's not as complicated as I describe it![]()
Yes, always. The best Karelia is a completely subordinated one!That went very much as expected. Revenge against Karelia is something every Fylkir shall pursue!
Duh! Forgot that, though I did manage around it clumsily.Though I may remind the Fylkir that if they desire to siege unreformed pagan lands, they will take high attrition as long as they do not build forts.![]()
I'll explore that when I next restart, thanks.Jorvik looks to be in a good state. Murdering Þorbjörn is certainly an option - but before that, Eilif can simply ask him for a NAP, as their siblings are married.
OK, I'm holding off a little before I restart so I can confirm a few of the above discussion points: the advice of the wise is always welcomed.
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