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Victoria 3 - Dev Diary #11 - Employment and Qualifications

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Happy Thursday and welcome to another deep-dive into the guts of Victoria 3’s economic machinery. This week we will be talking about Pop Professions, specifically how and why Pops change Profession. While this is an automatic process, the mechanics of it is still crucial knowledge to keep in the back of your head when building your society. Perhaps you want to ensure the population in one of your states are able to take on Machinist jobs before embarking on a rapid industrialization project there, or perhaps you want to ensure you don’t accidentally enable too much social mobility in a country already prone to uprisings against their true and lawful King.

First, a quick recap. In the Pops dev diary we learned that all Pops have a Profession, which determines their social strata and influences a number of things like wages, political strength, and Interest Group affiliations. In the Buildings dev diary we learned that buildings need Pops of specific Professions to work there in order for them to produce their intended effects on the economy and society. Finally, in the Production Methods dev diary we learned that different Production Methods change the number of Profession positions available in a building. So how do Pops get assigned to these spots?

Our approach here differs a bit from previous games. Victoria 1 and 2 has the concept of a “Pop Type”, a fundamental property of Pops in those games that defines most aspects of their existence - what function they perform in society, what goods they need to survive vs. what goods they desire, what ideologies they espouse, etcetera. Pops in Victoria 2 autonomously change into other types over time depending on their finances and the various needs and aspects of the country. Providing access to luxury goods in your country permits Pops to promote more easily. Generally speaking, higher-tier Pops will provide better bonuses for your country as different Pop Types perform different functions. By manufacturing or importing special goods and educating your population you would turn your simple, backwards Pops into advanced, progressive types in ideal ratios, which maximizes these bonuses to increase your competitive advantage.

Pop Types from Victoria 2: Aristocrats, Artisans, Bureaucrats, Capitalists, Clergymen, Clerks, Craftsmen, Farmers, Laborers, Officers, Slaves, and Soldiers.
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Victoria 3 Pops instead have Professions. These are in some ways similar to “Pop Type”, but the ideal ratios and economic functions of those Professions differ based on the building they’re employed in and the Production Methods activated. The fundamental difference between these two approaches become clear when considering the Bureaucrat Pop Type/Profession in Victoria 2 and 3. In both games, Bureaucrats increase a country’s administrative ability. But in Victoria 2 Pops promote into Bureaucrats independently in relation to the amount of administrative spending the player sets, while in Victoria 3 Pops will only become Bureaucrats if there are available Bureaucrat jobs in Government buildings, usually as a result of the player actively expanding Government Administrations.

Professions in Victoria 3: Academics, Aristocrats, Bureaucrats, Capitalists, Clergymen (temporary icon; will be changed to be more universally applicable), Clerks, Engineers, Farmers, Laborers, Machinists, Officers, Peasants, Servicemen, Shopkeepers, and Slaves.
professions-v3.png

The latter approach gives the player more control over where these job opportunities are created, and combined with Production Methods cause demographic shifts to have stronger, more localized effects that are easier to predict and understand. It’s also more flexible, permitting the same Profession to cause different effects in different Buildings given different Production Methods. So in Victoria 3 higher-paid Pops don’t by their very nature perform a more valuable societal function than lower-paid Pops - rather, each acts as a crucial part of a Production Method’s ‘recipe’. Each of these roles require the others to be effective - without enough Laborers to shovel coal the engines the Machinists maintain stay dormant, and without seamstresses to work the sewing machines the Shopkeepers don’t have any clothes to sell.

Buildings adjust their wages over time in order to achieve full employment with minimal wage costs. As employment increases, so does the Throughput - the degree by which the building consumes input goods and produces output goods. By the laws of supply and demand, this makes a building less profitable per capita the closer to full employment it gets, so at first blush it might appear irrational for a building to pay more wages just to reduce their margins. But since a “building” does not represent a single factory but rather a whole industrial sector across a large area, and we assume the individual businesses in that sector compete with each other rather than engage in cartel behavior to extort consumers, this adjustment of wages to maximize employment makes sense. However, buildings won’t increase wages due to labor competition if this would cause them to go into deficit, so there’s little point to expanding industries beyond the point where they’re profitable.

Employees are hired into available jobs from the pool of Pops that already exist in the state, but unless they’re unemployed these Pops will already have a job somewhere doing something else. Pops can be hired under two conditions: first, they must be offered a measurably higher wage than the wage they’re currently getting from their current employment. Second, unless they already work as the required Profession in another building, they must also meet the Qualifications of that Profession to change into it.

These Steel Mills don’t pay as well as the Arms Industries, but they do seem to offer better terms than the Textile Mills and resource industries in the same state - with the notable exception of Fishing Wharves, who also need Machinists to service their trawlers.
steel-mills-hiring.PNG

Wages are set by individual buildings in response to market conditions. A building that is losing money will decrease wages until it’s back in the black. A building that has open jobs it can’t seem to fill will raise wages until it either fills the necessary positions or runs out of excess profits. As a result, different buildings in the same state will compete for the available workforce. What this means in practice is that a large population with the necessary Qualifications to perform all the jobs being created in the state will keep wages depressed and profits high. Only when industries are large or advanced enough that they need to compete with each other for a limited pool of qualified workers are wages forced to rise. This rise in wages also comes with increased consumption, which increases demand for goods and services that some of the same buildings may profit from in the end.

A Pop’s Qualifications measure how many of its workforce qualify for certain Professions, and updates monthly depending on how well their current properties match up to the expectations of the Profession in question. For example, at least a basic education level is required to become a Machinist while a much higher one is required to become an Engineer. Conversely, the ability to become an Aristocrat is less about education and more about social class and wealth. Buildings won’t hire Pops who don’t meet the Qualifications for the Profession in question.

These 981 Machinists qualify to become Engineers at a rate of 4.08 per month. Their Literacy is nothing to write home about but they at least meet the cut-off of 20%, aren’t starving to death, and benefit substantially from already working in an adjacent field. All factors and numbers are work-in-progress.
machinist-quals.PNG

If some Paper Mills required more Engineers and this Pop was being considered, only the amount of qualified Engineers they’ve accumulated so far could be hired. Currently that is only 85 (not shown). If those 85 were all hired, this Pop would then end up with only 896 members left in the workforce of which 0 now qualify to become Engineers. Since all recently hired Engineers used to be Machinists, all 85 retain their Machinist Qualifications. Furthermore, if 512 members of this Pop qualified to be Farmers before the hire (52%), of the 85 of them who were newly promoted to Engineers, 44 of these new Engineers are also qualified to become Farmers.

To be considered for a “job” as Aristocrat a Pop must have at least moderate Wealth, and the more Wealth they have the faster they will develop this potential. Unlike many other jobs Literacy is not a requirement for being accepted into the aristocracy, but an education does make it easier. Bureaucrats and Officers have an easier time becoming Aristocrats than other members of society, while Pops who suffer discrimination on account of their culture have a much harder time. Finally, if a Pop does not meet the minimum Wealth requirement, they actually devolve any prior potential for becoming Aristocrats. This means that down-and-out former nobles robbed of their land and forced to go unemployed or (perish the thought) become a wage laborer will - over time - lose their ability to return to their former social class. All factors and numbers are work-in-progress.
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Like all Pop attributes, Qualifications follow the Pops as they split, merge, move between buildings, migrate, and die. If you had previously developed a lot of potential Bureaucrats in your country but ran into budgetary problems and had to shut down your schools, over time those Pops who have already developed the Qualifications to become Bureaucrats will die off and not be replaced by newly educated ones. If your Capitalists in a given state had been underpaying their local discriminated employees to the degree that nobody gained the Qualifications to take over for them, and then some of those Capitalists move away to operate a newly opened Iron Mine in the next state over, rather than promoting some of the local discriminated Laborers to the newly opened jobs they will simply leave the spots open (and the mines underproducing) until some qualified Capitalists move in from elsewhere to take over.

Qualifications are entirely moddable by simply providing the computational factors that should go into determining how the value develops each month. If you want to make a mod to split up the Clergymen Profession into individual variants for each Religion in the game, you could make the Imam Profession dependent on the Pop being Sunni or Shi’ite. If you wanted Aristocrat Qualification development to be highly dependent on the amount of unproductive Arable Land in the state the Pop lives in, you could do that. An event option or Decision that makes it faster and easier to educate Engineers but harder to educate Officers for the next 10 years? Absolutely.

A breakdown of all Pops in Lower Egypt that qualify to become Engineers. Of course, any openings will be offered to existing Engineers first, and not all of the remaining qualified Pops would actually be interested in the job - though if it was lucrative enough, perhaps some Aristocrats on a failing Subsistence Farm would consider a career change.
potential-engineers.PNG

The intent of Qualifications is to signal to a player what capacity for employment they have available among any subset of their population. They cannot, for example, conquer a state filled with under-educated people they also legally discriminate against and expect to immediately build up a cutting-edge manufacturing- and trade center there. These efforts will be throttled by their inability to employ the locals into highly qualified positions, meaning they have to wait for members of their already qualified workforce to migrate there from the old country to take on any high-status positions created for them. But by building out their education system, paying Bureaucracy to extend their administrative reach to the new state through incorporation, and changing their Laws to extend citizenship to these new residents, they can start to build this capacity also in the locals.

In summary, Qualifications is the mechanism by which access to education and your stance on discrimination - in addition to many other factors - impact your ability to expand different parts of your society. It is also the mechanism that sorts Pops logically into the economic (and thereby political) niches you carve out as you expand, ensuring your laws and economic conditions inform the social mobility of Pops based on who they are. It’s quite subtle, and you might not even notice it’s there - until you run into the challenges caused by rapid industrialization, mass migration, conquests, colonization, and other drastic population shifts.

That is all for this week! Next Thursday we will finally get into how all this economic activity translates into revenue streams for you, when Martin presents the mechanics governing the Treasury and national debt.
 
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I assume that buildings that reduce wages in order to return into the black won't run into the issue of:
  • Reduced wages makes pops seek employment elsewhere.
  • Reduced workers reduces production
  • Reduced production reduces income
  • Reduced income places the building in the red
  • The building reduces wages in order to maintain profits.
Both because this is expensive computationally, and because it might cause a building to employ no one and produce nothing.
Although it would be rather realistic.
I assume that is exactly what they are saying. But, you make a fair point that it is expensive computationally. I especially am worried about pops which promote/demote and keep their previous qualifications for a certain amount of time. That seems very very computationally expensive. The idea that each individual will be tracked as to what qualifications they have when they promote/demote, on a scale that includes every country in the world seems almost impossible. I'm guessing that if your PC has trouble with HOI4 in 1945, you should start saving your money.
 
Right, but it isn't just going to be me. It is going to be a lot of people. They see shopkeeper and they don't think of a carpenter.

Even though a carpenter does call the place where they build things the "shop" (at least, that is true in my experience). A "shop"keeper. That makes me chuckle. I actually dig that, but I think it is going to be confusing for a fair number of folks. No one would ever call a hotel "the shop" though, so it breaks down there.

I think they/us/we are just going to need to be continually reminded that shopkeeper = artisan. Shopkeeper is a catchall term for a bunch of different skill based craft/service employments - carpenter, metal worker, goldsmith, hair stylist, toymaker, grocer, butcher, innkeeper/hosteler, etc. Basically, anything that would have fallen under a craft guild during the EU era plus more modern equivalents (dentist? what else? edit: they had dentists during the EU era...).
If I think about it the first thing it comes to my mind is "petty bussines", but I don't know how to call people working in this "industry", so I typed "petty bussines" into Google. One of the result was Wikipedia article about "small bussines" and yes I was right it is the same thing, so I went further and found the world "retail" with its own dedicated page on wiki and here I found how this profession could be called. Nothing out of ordinary, but because I'm not native English user I haven't known if world "retailer" exists, but it does, so how about "retailer" instead of "shopkeeper"? :)

Thanks for coming to my TED Talk :p

Wiki article for proof:
 
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we assume the individual businesses in that sector compete with each other rather than engage in cartel behavior to extort consumers
Historically, this did happen: see Teddy Roosevelt and "trust busting". It would be awesome to have a mechanic that allows Capitalists with sufficient political power or wealth to start conspiring as "trusts" to push wages and production down and prices up for certain goods. Countries would have laws they could pass, like the Sherman Antitrust Act, which would prevent this and reduce the political power of the Capitalists.
 
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Obviously you are the ones who have a feel for how this is balanced but I am shocked that the numbers seen there are so weighted to consider current employment over everything else. I mean for aristocrats wealth is contributing 0.1 per point, literacy is 0.01 per point and being officers is giving 9.71. So pops with wealth of 80 (insanely high) and literacy of 100% would between those things have as much contribution as just the factor from being an officer. And it is even moreconcerning for other job types which need actual skills.
Seems like it will make getting a population with the qualifications you need mainly just dependant on having the more basic pops of that same type (machinists to engineers, officers to aristocrats, shopkeepers to capitalists etc).
That seems unfortunate, a population with poor education (even if it is 20%) but lots of basic factory workers should only produce a tiny fraction of the engineers that one with high education can, same for shopkeepers to capitalists. The skills are not that transferable and they represent very different kinds of work and economic systems.
They said they're still working on balancing the actual numbers
 
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This may have been covered in a previous Dev Diary already, but as I understand it, factories pay variable costs in the form of wages and purchasing resource inputs, but do they also have a base fixed cost to represent maintenance/rent/capital costs etc.? I assume they do as this would represent the baseline for which a factory becomes economically unfeasible and closes, no? My second question is a bit more pertinent to this week's diary, does a state's infrastructure have any impact on the ease with which Pops migrate to fill job slots?
 
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or they just sell goods, which then makes no sense because artisans are interested always in high tariffs. those new "shopkeepers" will be interested in low tariffs.
Do they sell goods? Maybe working in urban centers, but I don’t know if that’s what Service (the good they produce there) is necessarily supposed to model that.

Also, I think your dichotomy there is too simplistic. An artisan who is dependent on the import of cheap raw materials would oppose tariffs on them. I’ve cited it an example before, but American textile producers in New England were opposed to the Tariff of 1828 specifically because it taxed wool and hemp imports for the first time, even though they supported the increase of rates on British goods.

Conversely, treating all “artisans” as an undifferentiated mass would miss the big differences between an apprentice and the master employing him in the guild system.

They don't work on them, they own them. Assuming based on the tooltips provided, subsistence farms employ two types of pops, aristocrats and peasants (likely slaves as well). And it is likely that there is no way to change the production methods of your subsistence farms because they are just filler buildings, or like your extra building slots in something like hoi4. Since the goal is to generally get out of the subsistence farms and into industrialization over the course of the game, it is likely that aristocrats and peasants (and, again, slaves) are your worst types of pop. What you likely want are aristocrats to get educated and become capitalists while peasants and slaves to, first be free so they can economically migrate, and second to become laborers or farmers in a sugar plantation or an iron mine that you build. Maybe later on they can get an education and become something better (except that one peasant who promoted to engineer in the steel mills in the first tool tip, he is a straight badass).
My loose use of the word “work” aside, it would be weird if Aristocrats owned American subsistence farms. Especially as their interest group in the US is Southern Planters.
 
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Also, I’m not sure it’s true that Subsistence Farms don’t have Production Methods.

This screenshot from Dev Diary 2 cuts off where the Production Methods would be listed, as from the screenshot of a Government Admin building from the same diary.

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I especially am worried about pops which promote/demote and keep their previous qualifications for a certain amount of time. That seems very very computationally expensive. The idea that each individual will be tracked as to what qualifications they have when they promote/demote, on a scale that includes every country in the world seems almost impossible.

It's not that each individual needs to be updated. All calculations are at the pop level. So a pop with 10,000 people might have 300 qualified to be engineers, next month it is 305. Then 200 get jobs as engineers - it's just subtract some numbers from the source pop and add them to the target pop. Basically even though it keep counts of individuals, all computations scale with the number of pops, not the number of individuals.
 
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My loose use of the word “work” aside, it would be weird if Aristocrats owned American subsistence farms. Especially as their interest group in the US is Southern Planters.
You could see Southern plantation owners as a type of aristocrats. Certainly they have the money, social class, and snobbery down pat.

Also, I think your dichotomy there is too simplistic. An artisan who is dependent on the import of cheap raw materials would oppose tariffs on them.
Conversely, a shopkeeper whose livelihood is mainly selling locally produced goods probably doesn't really care about tariffs, and certainly doesn't have the reason to oppose them that a rich big-city importer does. If I'm a clothier selling goods from the factory down the street vs. the latest Parisian fashions I probably have different views on the importance of free trade.
 
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Nice system, and glad it's going to be moddable. If I remember correctly, POPs in Vicky II weren't moddable, or at least not to the extent they will be here.
 
You could see Southern plantation owners as a type of aristocrats. Certainly they have the money, social class, and snobbery down pat.
The Land Owner interest group in the US is called Southern Planters, that’s what I’m referencing. It would be odd for aristocrats to be present on Northern Subsistence Farms.

This is what makes me think there will be multiple Production Methods for Subsistence Farms, including the use of slaves and either noble or yeoman ownership.
 
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Historically, this did happen: see Teddy Roosevelt and "trust busting". It would be awesome to have a mechanic that allows Capitalists with sufficient political power or wealth to start conspiring as "trusts" to push wages and production down and prices up for certain goods. Countries would have laws they could pass, like the Sherman Antitrust Act, which would prevent this and reduce the political power of the Capitalists.
He said we assume.
 
Cheers for the DD Iachek, and it’s a very elegant-sounding system, and sounds like a step up from Vicky 2 I really like how the aristocratic transitions are described.

Some random thoughts that you may well have considered (or others may well have mentioned in the thread) but is it the case as the armed forces become more technically-oriented, that a greater proportion of officers and engineers are required (perhaps set by the type of equipment in use or technology developed - however 'military equipment' is determined in V3)?

Also – where would carpenters fall, and plumbers? I’m presuming under machinists, and might it be more representative to call them something more broadly representative?


By the laws of supply and demand, this makes a building less profitable per capita the closer to full employment it gets, so at first blush it might appear irrational for a building to pay more wages just to reduce their margins. But since a “building” does not represent a single factory but rather a whole industrial sector across a large area, and we assume the individual businesses in that sector compete with each other rather than engage in cartel behavior to extort consumers, this adjustment of wages to maximize employment makes sense. However, buildings won’t increase wages due to labor competition if this would cause them to go into deficit, so there’s little point to expanding industries beyond the point where they’re profitable.

Actually, how you describe it is how supply and demand theory works even for individual businesses – it does make sense for employers to increase their wage rates as long as the net margin continues to increase, even if margin per employee may decrease. Theoretically, businesses stop hiring when the net margin no longer increases (rather than margine per capita), but this is expected to be far above the largest margin per capita (some unique production types/goods aside). However, what it sounds like you’re trying to say is that businesses will keep hiring into their net margin as well, until the net margin is reduced to nothing – which is consistent with a competitive market in a theoretically perfect-information world with zero transaction costs (which can include transport costs) and no political factors influencing value or activity - at least as best I recall my economic theory.

Of course, economic theory can sometimes only have a somewhat sketchy resemblance to how things actually work in the real world (perfect information is flat-out impossible, transaction costs are never zero, and as long as humans are involved, either actively or in the design of the system, political factors will be in play as well, and as for humans being rational….) By assuming perfect competition within a state, but not between states, it places a lot of emphasis on transport costs between states but not within, particularly for states with spare infrastructure capacity.

In terms of how this, given the many, many factors that prevent perfect competition taking place, is there anything to proxy this in-game, either in a general sense, or particular modifiers (for one of many potential examples, unions pushing up wages for insiders at the expense of the unemployed could lead to higher wages all else being equal, and buildings being ever-so-slightly less efficient). These types of things could create interesting gameplay interactions and events, and challenge the player to maintain their economy over time, adding a greater range of various trade-offs that need to be balanced.

What happens under this system is that the cowed and discriminated Aristocrats gradually lose their qualifications to be Aristocrats under these new laws, and will over time be replaced by other Pops deemed to be more suitable for the job.

This is actually often historically plausible - many conquerors continued to employ some of the more compliant local elites after taking control of an area, but with discrimination working against them long-term.

Peasants are employed on Subsistence Farms only and satisfy most of their needs off the land, outside of the economy proper.
If it involves the consumption and production of goods and services, it's all part of "the economy proper" - it sounds here that you mean something more similar (but not quite the same as - subsistence farms still interacted with national markets) "the market economy".

As for a maritime pic for this DD, it's got to be a naval profession - here are some members of the 'black gang' - stokers feeding the boilers, literally one of the many engine-rooms of global commerce.


1629423861227.png


* This isn't a racist term, but rather relates to the colour of one's clothes and skin after working for hours shovelling coal.
 
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Id disagree "pretty easily", I only figured it out because i wondered where the number came from, then divided that number by the sum of the others, and it came out 4. then did the same for the other, and came out 4 as well. Only then I realized its a multiplicative factor. It was not seen at a glance, I had to try to figure it out.

And I think It would be clearer if it would be displayed like this:
Each month +0.30 due to
1.21 from pop attributes:
From wealth +2.00
Fromliteracy +0.42
From officer x5
From discrimination x0.1
x0.25 from size of 250

or maybe
Each month +0.30 due to
2.42 from pop attributes:
From wealth +2.00
Fromliteracy +0.42
x5 from officer
x0.1 From discrimination
x0.25 from size of 250
See the problem with this is you haven't clarified any information at all and all you've done is make it more confusing and obscure where the numbers are coming from. Currently on the interface, all POP attribute effects are additive, while the workforce size effect is a multiplier, so it's easy to tell which is which. What you're suggesting is mixing additives and multipliers in the POP attribute modifiers display, which will just confuse the player on whether a certain effect is a POP attribute effect or not. And in fact you yourself have just demonstrated how that becomes more confusing because you got them confused in this very post with the second suggestion mixing POP attributes and the workforce size modifier. So thank you for demonstrating how it would make it more confusing and why it shouldn't be done.
 
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Another great Dev Diary. Looking forward to see how this all works in game.

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My only suggestion is to clarify the modifications for qualifications. Why is 11 wealth = +0.55 for machinists? I understand this is a WIP, but this is the first time I have come across data in the game that I am confident will not make sense to someone new game.

The layout could be better and the origin of the modifiers need to be better explained.
 
Probably out of scope of this dev diary, but how does this interact with pops out of State? If there's a labour shortage will it start pulling in qualified personnel from different states? If there's a labour surplus, will it start pushing the unemployed to other states?
 
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