War Effort - Operation Capital [1.12.8 OPEN BETA]

[Znail]

What is the rationale for the changes to the NAVs?

- Dive brakes no longer valid for naval bombers, increased naval targeting from dive brakes from 4 to 6
- Dive brakes no longer valid with naval bomber weapons (torpedoes and guided missiles)

It's a realism thing, dive brakes are for dive bombing and don't help when using torpedoes or guided missiles. This would be more interesting if dive bombing wasn't still so much worse then torpedoes. At least USA should have some incentives to use dive bombs if still using bad torpedoes.

 

[marcelo r. r.]

whatta hell my game updated today? i was in beta and seems reverted to 1.7

Edit: i noticed u guys uptated the beta, but the freakin Steam misleading to think i was throw into 1.7

 

[marcelo r. r.]

guys pls make the designers sort the models by name.

 

[Ivan Moskvich]

"Basic Medium chassis now 1938 tech, amphibious tank now unlocked only by 1936 light, tank armour tech dates are now 36,38,41,44, amphibious tank no longer gets medium turrets"

What kind of dumb decision is this? It's not like Medium tanks suddenly popped into existence in 1938. They had been in development since the end of WW1.

NSB had FINALLY fixed there being no 1936 medium tank tech, and now it's all cocked up again.

These new changes now make it again impossible to have Panzer IVs, A-20s, and T-34s by their historical production dates. Especially with the changes to the focuses that give these designs.

 

[nmpolo]

What kind of dumb decision is this? It's not like Medium tanks suddenly popped into existence in 1938. They had been in development since the end of WW1.

Let me introduce you to something called the Inter-War Medium Tank Chassis.

 

[CaptainAllen]

Looks like tank armor 2 is still a 1936 tech, not a 1938 tech as the dev diary claims.

 

[CaptainAllen]

Basic Heavy Tank is still worse than Inter-war Heavy Tank speed wise (4.6 vs 5.1 km/h) while almost every other stat is identical. I don't think it makes sense.

 

[Limyx826]

 - Basic Medium chassis now 1938 tech, amphibious tank now unlocked only by 1936 light, tank armour tech dates are now 36,38,41,44, amphibious tank no longer gets medium turrets

"armor_tech_2" is in the correct position of the tech tree (@1938) but still has "start_year = 1936". The same is the case for engine_tech_2. Probably unintentionally?

Looks like tank armor 2 is still a 1936 tech, not a 1938 tech as the dev diary claims.

Do you refer to these?

    armor_tech_1 = {
        enable_equipment_modules = {
            tank_welded_armor
        }

        path = {
            leads_to_tech = armor_tech_2
            research_cost_coeff = 1
        }

        on_research_complete = {
            custom_effect_tooltip = armor_tech_1_tt
        }
        show_effect_as_desc = yes

        research_cost = 1
        start_year = 1936
        folder = {
            name = nsb_armour_folder
            position = { x = 3 y = @1936 }
        }

        ai_will_do = {
            factor = 1

            modifier = {
                factor = 2
                is_major = yes
            }
            modifier = {
                has_war = yes
                factor = 2
            }

            modifier = {
                factor = 1.1
                date > "1937.1.1"
            }

            modifier = {
                factor = 1.1
                date > "1938.1.1"
            }

            modifier = {
                factor = 1.1
                date > "1939.1.1"
            }
        }

        categories = {
            armor
        }
    }

    armor_tech_2 = {

        enable_equipment_modules = {
            armor_skirts
        }
        path = {
            leads_to_tech = armor_tech_3
            research_cost_coeff = 1
        }

        on_research_complete = {
            custom_effect_tooltip = armor_tech_2_tt
        }
        show_effect_as_desc = yes

        research_cost = 1
        start_year = 1936
        folder = {
            name = nsb_armour_folder
            position = { x = 3 y = @1938 }
        }

        ai_will_do = {
            factor = 1

            modifier = {
                factor = 2
                is_major = yes
            }
            modifier = {
                has_war = yes
                factor = 2
            }

            modifier = {
                factor = 1.1
                date > "1937.1.1"
            }

            modifier = {
                factor = 1.1
                date > "1938.1.1"
            }

            modifier = {
                factor = 1.1
                date > "1939.1.1"
            }
        }

        categories = {
            armor
        }
    }

    armor_tech_3 = {


        path = {
            leads_to_tech = armor_tech_4
            research_cost_coeff = 1
        }

        on_research_complete = {
            custom_effect_tooltip = armor_tech_3_tt
        }
        show_effect_as_desc = yes

        research_cost = 1
        start_year = 1941
        folder = {
            name = nsb_armour_folder
            position = { x = 3 y = @1941 }
        }

        ai_will_do = {
            factor = 1

            modifier = {
                factor = 2
                is_major = yes
            }
            modifier = {
                has_war = yes
                factor = 2
            }

            modifier = {
                factor = 1.1
                date > "1937.1.1"
            }

            modifier = {
                factor = 1.1
                date > "1938.1.1"
            }

            modifier = {
                factor = 1.1
                date > "1939.1.1"
            }
        }

        categories = {
            armor
        }
    }

    armor_tech_4 = {

        research_cost = 1
        start_year = 1944
        folder = {
            name = nsb_armour_folder
            position = { x = 3 y = @1944 }
        }

        on_research_complete = {
            custom_effect_tooltip = armor_tech_4_tt
        }
        show_effect_as_desc = yes

        ai_will_do = {
            factor = 1

            modifier = {
                factor = 2
                is_major = yes
            }
            modifier = {
                has_war = yes
                factor = 2
            }

            modifier = {
                factor = 1.1
                date > "1937.1.1"
            }

            modifier = {
                factor = 1.1
                date > "1938.1.1"
            }

            modifier = {
                factor = 1.1
                date > "1939.1.1"
            }
        }

        categories = {
            armor
        }
    }

    engine_tech_1 = {


        path = {
            leads_to_tech = engine_tech_2
            research_cost_coeff = 1
        }
        on_research_complete = {
            custom_effect_tooltip = engine_tech_1_tt
        }
        show_effect_as_desc = yes
        research_cost = 1
        start_year = 1934
        folder = {
            name = nsb_armour_folder
            position = { x = 2 y = @1936 }
        }

        ai_will_do = {
            factor = 1

            modifier = {
                factor = 2
                is_major = yes
            }
            modifier = {
                has_war = yes
                factor = 2
            }

            modifier = {
                factor = 1.1
                date > "1937.1.1"
            }

            modifier = {
                factor = 1.1
                date > "1938.1.1"
            }

            modifier = {
                factor = 1.1
                date > "1939.1.1"
            }
        }

        categories = {
            armor
        }
    }

    engine_tech_2 = {


        path = {
            leads_to_tech = engine_tech_3
            research_cost_coeff = 1
        }

        on_research_complete = {
            custom_effect_tooltip = engine_tech_2_tt
        }
        show_effect_as_desc = yes

        research_cost = 1
        start_year = 1936
        folder = {
            name = nsb_armour_folder
            position = { x = 2 y = @1938 }
        }

        ai_will_do = {
            factor = 1

            modifier = {
                factor = 2
                is_major = yes
            }
            modifier = {
                has_war = yes
                factor = 2
            }

            modifier = {
                factor = 1.1
                date > "1937.1.1"
            }

            modifier = {
                factor = 1.1
                date > "1938.1.1"
            }

            modifier = {
                factor = 1.1
                date > "1939.1.1"
            }
        }

        categories = {
            armor
        }
    }

    engine_tech_3 = {


        path = {
            leads_to_tech = engine_tech_4
            research_cost_coeff = 1
        }
        on_research_complete = {
            custom_effect_tooltip = engine_tech_3_tt
        }
        show_effect_as_desc = yes
        research_cost = 1
        start_year = 1941
        folder = {
            name = nsb_armour_folder
            position = { x = 2 y = @1941 }
        }

        ai_will_do = {
            factor = 1

            modifier = {
                factor = 2
                is_major = yes
            }
            modifier = {
                has_war = yes
                factor = 2
            }

            modifier = {
                factor = 1.1
                date > "1937.1.1"
            }

            modifier = {
                factor = 1.1
                date > "1938.1.1"
            }

            modifier = {
                factor = 1.1
                date > "1939.1.1"
            }
        }

        categories = {
            armor
        }
    }

    engine_tech_4 = {

        research_cost = 1
        start_year = 1944
        folder = {
            name = nsb_armour_folder
            position = { x = 2 y = @1944 }
        }
        on_research_complete = {
            custom_effect_tooltip = engine_tech_4_tt
        }
        show_effect_as_desc = yes
        ai_will_do = {
            factor = 1

            modifier = {
                factor = 2
                is_major = yes
            }
            modifier = {
                has_war = yes
                factor = 2
            }

            modifier = {
                factor = 1.1
                date > "1937.1.1"
            }

            modifier = {
                factor = 1.1
                date > "1938.1.1"
            }

            modifier = {
                factor = 1.1
                date > "1939.1.1"
            }
        }

        categories = {
            armor
        }

 

[Alexander 'The Grape']

Heavy and Light Tanks both don't seem to be worthwhile even with 1938 medium tech. If you're going for early tank production, its better to build Interwar Mediums and just eat the reliabilty penalty with other modules. It's still more cost effective to buff the reliability of a medium with expensive modules than it is to build light or heavy tanks.

To make Heavy and Lights more tempting in the early game, then they need more cost-effective guns,

Lights should be 50/battalion to make them cheaper, and IMO should have better terrain stats in mountains. And Improved Small Cannon is way too weak for the stats you get - they're immediately outclassed by Hi Velo I at the same tech level. It should either have more attack (17/15?) or stay at 1.5 IC

Heavies meanwhile don't get enough stats to make up for their high cost and bad terrain penalties. For Heavies to be more tempting early on, then the basic heavy Cannon needs to be much better - you barely get more stats than a Hi Velo 1 for double the cost of the tank! Meanwhile Improved and advanced heavy cannons are no where near effective enough to justify the Heavy Chassis or making an expensive, low breakthrough TD.

I would suggest Basic Heavy Tank cannon from 20/20 to 25/25, and Improved from 25/35 to 30/35. That way they're still outclassed by more specialist Medium guns but have versatility to make up for the cost.

 

[Ivan Moskvich]

Let me introduce you to something called the Inter-War Medium Tank Chassis.

Let me introduce you to something called the A-20, which was designed and tested in 1937. Let me introduce you to something called the T-34 which was designed in 1939. Let me introduce you to something called the Panzer IV which was designed and tested in 1939.

None of these tanks can be produced in their historical dates anymore.

If they're going to screw up tank dates again, they least they could have done is make the German-Soviet Treaty give a 1 year ahead of time reduction for basic and improved medium tank chassis instead of a 100% research bonus so you could research and design these tanks in their proper historical year.

 

[general_de_golle]

Thanks for update! Here is some feedback.

Positive changes:

• Stalinist AI really kills Trotskiy.
• AI chooses different Officer`s Corps spirits, game becames more interesting.
• German AI builds more CAS, it has about 800 CAS till the beginning of the war with USSR, this helps it to be more effective (captured Moscow twice in my observe parties).
• Looks like in general AI tends to build more ships and creates better designs. Good work!
• Great Britain`s AI intercepts German and Italian divisions when they move to Ephiopia by sea. I saw battles with both english subs and other ships from one side, and Axis convoys from another.
• USSR removed debuff to military academies from paranoia. Well done, this was bugged since NSB release.

Something that needs more attention, rework or does not changed from the previous update:

• Axis AI send too much divisions to Ephiopia by see, especially by route from Biscay bay, around whole Africa. In some parties German has more than 80%! of its tank divisions in Ephiopia or in this sea route, while the Ai was beginning the war with USSR. Suggestion: make German to prioritize more North Africa and limit the amount of tank divisions it send there by 30%. Make Italy keep enougth forces in Africa before joining the war.
• Allied AI does not protect its convoys. Japan kills around 7000 convoys till 1944...
• All countries except Great Britain do not produce carrier aircraft. I have already created a bug report about this situation. Please, pay attention to this point, AI`s carriers are just a junk without planes.
• German and Italian AI can`t cope with resistance/compliance management. It is always around 50-60% in Poland, Benelux and France. And after Allied AI spam of resistance related missions - even higher. However, historically resisance was not so strong in the beginning and in some areas in the middle of the war. Suggestion: teach AI to use its operatives to suppress resistance. Also - this happens because AI switches default occupation law "Miltary governor" to a weaker one in all areas. Looks like a bug or a strange behaviour.
• After Turkey completes focus that gives it investment descisions AI countries start spaming this investments. I observed Germany and USSR taking 2 and 3 of these descisions in a row. It gives a debuff (+5% consumer goods, -10% construction speed for 180 days). To my mind this is werid with historical focus. Especially, when Germany takes this descisions in 1939, while actively preparing to start a war...
• Soviet`s AI spams "develop or expand mine" descisions till the end of 1945, so it does not take all military staff and picks none of design companies, even these whic are highly discounted (cost less than 75 PP).
• Soviet`s AI pick propagnada campaing "Golden Idol of the Capitalism", which makes for AI impossible to get land lease from Democracies(it does not agree to recive it due to -100 Democracy diplomacy), who fight with USSR agains German. This makes USSR really weaker during the war.
• Some minor countries stop producing anything during the game. I observed Turkey that used 0 of it`s 21 military factories. Looks like AI has enought equipment for it`s divisions and can`t deploy anymore. So it does not build anything, thus player couldn`t take huge amount after AI capitulation. Suggestion: If AI can`t change conscription law - it should try to create proper Airforce or better divisions (tanks, motorised, artillery etc.).
• Soviet AI start war with Finland by focus in April of 1940. However, in real life this war ended a month before. Looks like the order of pre war focuses for USSR should be changed a bit.
• In the end of 1939 USSR had around 78-80 military factories and 8 dockyards in my observes. Latvia, Lituania and Estonia had 46-50 military factories and 6 dockyards. Looks like USSR is underperformed and balitc states are too powerful?
• AI`s willingnes to build intelligence agency is hardcoded to focuses and dates. Like France, Great Britain and USA built their agency in January 1938, German and USSR in January of 1940. To my mind it is more logically to bind this to World tension level or if country is already in war. Kinda strange to observe Germany without intelligence agency for 5 months after starting a war.

Hope to see some improvements for these points in future updates.

 

[Disgruntled Rabbit]

Can anyone explain to me why carrier CAS is now stronger than normal naval bombers. due to the dive break restrictions. LOGIC. DOES. NOT. COMPUTE.

The naval bomber buff is NOT ENOUGH the naval balance post nav nerf & decrease in naval battle resolution speed has been SO ODIOUS that its a common rule now in vanilla adjacent multiplayer games to simple ban the UK fleet entering the med.

A horrible immersion breaking, feature stripping, necessity - if you want your games to be resemble anything close to semi-competitive.

I understand that this is a single player game, so the ask is not for multiplayer balance as we normally resolve base game issues with rules.

But having what is 'nominally' 1/3rd of warfare (army, navy, air force) in such a state is a huge shame- double down on the nav buff & allow dive breaks on navs again - we would like our naval gameplay back paradox!

Aside I generally really like what you have done with the game post BBA, new focus trees are awesome (power creep aside), my fav addition is definitely the new supply mechanics - that was really revolutionary and has made ground warfare so much more strategic & rewarding. Kudos to you developers!

 

[Alexander 'The Grape']

The naval bomber buff is NOT ENOUGH the naval balance post nav nerf & decrease in naval battle resolution speed has been SO ODIOUS that its a common rule now in vanilla adjacent multiplayer games to simple ban the UK fleet entering the med.


A horrible immersion breaking, feature stripping, necessity - if you want your games to be resemble anything close to semi-competitive.

I understand that this is a single player game, so the ask is not for multiplayer balance as we normally resolve base game issues with rules.

But having what is 'nominally' 1/3rd of warfare (army, navy, air force) in such a state is a huge shame- double down on the nav buff & allow dive breaks on navs again - we would like our naval gameplay back paradox!

Aside I generally really like what you have done with the game post BBA, new focus trees are awesome (power creep aside), my fav addition is definitely the new supply mechanics - that was really revolutionary and has made ground warfare so much more strategic & rewarding. Kudos to you developers!

Yeah the OP navs was a bandaid on Deathstacking - now navs are more balanced then it's a big problem for things like surface raiding with massive starting navies that no longer die to naval bombers alone.

Now we're seeing things like UK fleet able to raid with impunity under red air just because they have so many old creaky ships because it doesn't matter if you have an advanced navy and air support, the sheer number of old ships will overwhelm you.

Bit more of a buff to navs and/or a serious look at deathstacking please - positioning is nowhere near enough!

With that said ,the carrier buffs to make this a lot better - once the UK's carriers are eliminated, then a carrier fleet should be able to make short work of the rest

 

[Disgruntled Rabbit]

Yeah the OP navs was a bandaid on Deathstacking - now navs are more balanced then it's a big problem for things like surface raiding with massive starting navies that no longer die to naval bombers alone.

Now we're seeing things like UK fleet able to raid with impunity under red air just because they have so many old creaky ships because it doesn't matter if you have an advanced navy and air support, the sheer number of old ships will overwhelm you.

Bit more of a buff to navs and/or a serious look at deathstacking please - positioning is nowhere near enough!

With that said ,the carrier buffs to make this a lot better - once the UK's carriers are eliminated, then a carrier fleet should be able to make short work of the rest

Yes agreed - the fundamental problem is that the starting naval equipment shows such a disparity between UK vs ITA, that ITA needs "OP" navs to defend the central med supply route from convoy raiding.

Assuming italy has c. 15-20 navs on naval bombers & complete green air in the central med, it should not be possible for the UK to raid there for a sustained period of time (denying supply to Axis in africa). But since the nav nerf the UK can raid with near impunity.

To fix this you need to buff navs, such that they can make up for the starting naval IC disparity...

 

[nmpolo]

• Stalinist AI really kills Trotskiy.

Do you know when the AI does this and what the conditions are for it to happen?

I'm curious as I'm playing a Nordic Empire game and I was up to February 1940 prior to the very latest changes.

I know Trotsky died in August 1940 irl but it doesn't look very likely the AI will kill him anytime soon in my current game given it's June 1940 and the Soviet AI is just now doing it's 5th intel agency upgrade and their only current spy is in my capital rather than in Mexico which I believe it needs to be to kill Trotsky.

1.12.8 is a major improvement for the Soviet AI over 1.12.7. I had to start a new game because of it (I was in June 1940 on the 1.12.7 save too but the Soviet AI was still on civilian economy so it was pointless) but I don't want to have to start a new game *again* to make the most of the latest improvements to the Soviet AI.

 

[general_de_golle]

Do you know when the AI does this and what the conditions are for it to happen?

I'm curious as I'm playing a Nordic Empire game and I was up to February 1940 prior to the very latest changes.

I know Trotsky died in August 1940 irl but it doesn't look very likely the AI will kill him anytime soon in my current game given it's June 1940 and the Soviet AI is just now doing it's 5th intel agency upgrade and their only current spy is in my capital rather than in Mexico which I believe it needs to be to kill Trotsky.

1.12.8 is a major improvement for the Soviet AI over 1.12.7. I had to start a new game because of it (I was in June 1940 on the 1.12.7 save too but the Soviet AI was still on civilian economy so it was pointless) but I don't want to have to start a new game *again* to make the most of the latest improvements to the Soviet AI.

If USSR succeds to kill Trotskiy from villa raid (shorter but more risky mission) - it happens in the first half of 1940. If from the second mission - up to the spring of 1941.

However, with this update USSR faces more problems with paranoia. Just look at the attached screenshot. It has 7 negative debuffs, Beria as NKVD advisor, 3 of 5 admirals purged, 9 generals and field marshals (only 5 were purged historically). And this is not the end of the purge yet... Also USSR AI will lose Vosnesenskiy advisor (and this happens in 99% of parties) due to purge of other political advisor.

Also I mentioned such issue: If I try to trigger purge related airforce descisions - at first it always triggers event with academy debuff. No mater when I trigger this descision or airforce purge event is triggerd by paranoia level - always at first triggers "Conspirasy in academy" event. Devs, this is hardcoded? I tried to start new games, reloaded my computer, but nothing changed. Looks like it is not 50% / 50% as written in event description...

 

[Herennius]

Some minor countries stop producing anything during the game. I observed Turkey that used 0 of it`s 21 military factories. Looks like AI has enought equipment for it`s divisions and can`t deploy anymore. So it does not build anything, thus player couldn`t take huge amount after AI capitulation. Suggestion: If AI can`t change conscription law - it should try to create proper Airforce or better divisions (tanks, motorised, artillery etc.).

While the issue with minors leaving MIls idle is older, it seems indeed that this fix...

- AI no longer forgets top-most production line when reducing excessive factories

...from the 2nd part of this beta has worsened the situation on this front - before, those minors were still stuck with whatever the had into produced in the topmost production line (so some MILs continued producing, though unneeded stuff)...and now they are able to remove that line without replacing it. Not wanting to say that the fix itself is bad or not really appreciated - on the contary, it will help minors a lot in other cases to get what they consider as necessary in time-, but it shows now just to full extend what it means that minor stop production.

I posted an example in the thread of the fixed production-line-0-not-reassigned bug - yes it is good that e.g. Columbia does not further increase it's truck fleet over the 50k they have amassed already, but as you pointed out: They should finally research a basic plane technology to work on their fighter deficit instead of researching other stuff they don't need and now leaving all MIls idle...

HoI 4 - AI cannot unassign factory line 0 (AGAIN) - mass produces equipment it does not need

Description of issue AI cannot unassign factory line 0 (AGAIN) - mass produces equipment it does not need What platform do you play on? Steam Game Version 1.12.7 & 1.12.8 beta Enabled DLC Together for Victory, Death or Dishonor, Waking...

forum.paradoxplaza.com

 

[Znail]

Let me introduce you to something called the A-20, which was designed and tested in 1937. Let me introduce you to something called the T-34 which was designed in 1939. Let me introduce you to something called the Panzer IV which was designed and tested in 1939.

None of these tanks can be produced in their historical dates anymore.

If they're going to screw up tank dates again, they least they could have done is make the German-Soviet Treaty give a 1 year ahead of time reduction for basic and improved medium tank chassis instead of a 100% research bonus so you could research and design these tanks in their proper historical year.

How does moving the tech to 38 prevent you from designing tanks in 39? You are making a good argument for moving the tech to 39.
[edit]
I find the move of the medium tech a good start, but it only makes Light Tanks and Heavy tanks viable for early wars. I still think they need a bit more reason to exist.
LT should get a little more speed, like 0.3-0.5km/h more.
HT 43 is actually fine, it got 75 armor compared with the 50 for the medium, but for some reason so don't the early HT have nearly the same advantage.
Early war HT have 30 vs 25.
Basic have 35 with medium having the same, although now with later date.
Improved have 55 vs 45.
I think those (except 43) should get 5-10 more armor.
[/edit]

 

[Ivan Moskvich]

How does moving the tech to 38 prevent you from designing tanks in 39? You are making a good argument for moving the tech to 39.
[edit]
I find the move of the medium tech a good start, but it only makes Light Tanks and Heavy tanks viable for early wars. I still think they need a bit more reason to exist.
LT should get a little more speed, like 0.3-0.5km/h more.
HT 43 is actually fine, it got 75 armor compared with the 50 for the medium, but for some reason so don't the early HT have nearly the same advantage.
Early war HT have 30 vs 25.
Basic have 35 with medium having the same, although now with later date.
Improved have 55 vs 45.
I think those (except 43) should get 5-10 more armor.
[/edit]

Moving the techs to 37 for basic medium tank chassis and 39 for improved medium tank chassis would actually be a historical change and I'd be fine with that. Saying the main prewar medium tanks weren't researched until 1940 is asinine however (barring the Americans who didn't even design the Lee until 1940).

Pz IVs took part in the invasion of Poland in 39, however few.


I did do a test game and if you eat the ahead of time research penalty, you can get improved medium tank chassis by Feb of 39 with the 100% research boost, but it shouldn't be ahead of time to begin with.

 

[marcelo r. r.]

can anyone open a bug report on this?

in that beta, the templates dissapear!!!