CK3: Tours and Tournaments - The Vision

[solid steak]

I'll try not to be super negative about it, because some parts of this does seem cool, but overall it puts a yucky taste in my mouth. This just seems like more of the same gimmicky stuff from Royal Court.

 

[Cooleatack]

The tour and regent mechanic allow for so much potential growth. Why is everyone groaning, and moaning? As you well know, most of the mechanical changes will be free to expand upon later. This will benefit future mechanical updates to warfare and religion that we all want. Trade, conversions, realm management, espionage, logistics, name it. They could all be done with this very mechanic.

• Imagine the councillors using the tour system, to actually visit and go through your realm to perform their tasks.
• Imagine a spy/assassin having to plan their route to an enemy castle or army. And plan the escape route around their forts.
• Imagine drawing the route for gaining support for a holy war. Yes, your precious crusades would MASSIVELY benefit from this system. You could plan the route to gain crusaders, and where your allies would go. See where they would encounter unwilling realms, and raid
  Spoiler

  the Byzantines
  when supply gets too low.
• Imagine drawing a trade route to distant realms
• Imagine going on adventures. Varangians, Treasure Hunts, Lunacy, Search for abducted family members, etc. Finally! This would no longer just be for your courtiers!
• Imagine actually being able to plan a war ahead, and drawing supply lines. Seeking where they would be vulnerable, and not being able to march across a desert with ease.
• Imagine building roads and canals.

Just some ideas I got from pausing a minute, and understanding what the regency + character connection to the map actually means. It is awesome. All the colourful events and roleplay we get here, is just to set it up. And that, whether you like it or not, is what is attracting a whole new audience to this game. Some mockingly call it Crusader Sims. It is the appeal this grand strategy is giving to a much broader audience, that will grant longevity to this game. Longevity, where the devs can have the time to design and implement all our wishlists.

Be happy, and wait for the dev diaries. Or not, and wait for the modders to make the above ideas, and more. Or just be mad, I understand waiting is frustrating. Just be a little kind that they are finally revealing a new major content pack, and try to see the potential.

 

[TripleAgent]

Ooph, lotta opinions flying around - I'm mostly gonna comment on the stuff that's relevant to what I've worked on most here.

I will say, for those who are disappointed that this wasn't about imperials, nomads, or republics, that we did announce that like ~6 months ago. Per the floorplan DD:

... which, as far as I recall, was part of how so many people started getting keen on regencies to begin with. Something never expanded in CK2. I won't tell you not to feel upset and I hope we can get at least some of you back with upcoming dev diaries, but we were honest about this months ago & have repeated it whenever prompted since.

I suppose my frustration comes in part from, among other things, this from you two weeks ago:

5. For various (generally though not exclusively COVID-related) reasons, Studio Black over here had a poor 2021 for release cadence, and we understandably lost a lot of trust with folks over that. 2022 wasn't particularly bad if you look at it objectively/overall, but large chunks of the playerbase felt/feel uncatered to and 2022 didn't help that. We tried to be a bit crunchier with Fate of Iberia, but as a regional flavour pack, that was both a bit small for some people and not something broadly applicable enough for everyone.

6. The end result is people being concerned that a game they love (or, in the worst cases, want to love) is leaving them behind and intends to never try to appeal to them again. Though this is decidedly not the case from my POV, I have the luxury of a significantly more complete picture than most people, and thus it's easy for me to go "chill, folks, it's not that bad" when it do be kinda sus if you're lacking that extra info and the games industry is... well... being the games industry.

7. We then end up with a large number of people pointing to a feature that they feel was not worthwhile because it didn't add something that appealed massively to them, and because they feel like they've not been given their turn for a major DLC at all yet, there's this desire to dismiss Royal Court having any appeal in order to make a point about how we've prioritised particular sections of the fanbase at the seeming expense of other sections. Not deliberately mind you, and not because we have any intention of leaving mechanically-focused players behind, but circumstances have certainly made it appear that way from the outside and it is entirely understandable that people worry about it actually being the case.

It feels like despite these issues with the target content of expansions being acknowledged, we're still moving in the same direction as Royal Court and people like me, who want deeper mechanics and fixes to the basegame before new RP-heavy content and systems, are being left behind. We're fresh off of being told "trust us, we'll be better, just wait until you know what we know" and then the immediate next announcement is (or at least, by the announcement feels like it is) in the same vein of the type of content we've been saying we don't care about if the underlying game isn't improved.

I was legitimately excited that we might see an overhaul of crown laws, or councils, or intrigue, or factions, or religion, or crusaders, or new struggles, or SOMETHING. Maybe some of that will be in the patch, but it just feels really odd at THIS point, fresh off folks being dissatisfied with RC and the state of mechanics development/refinement, to do something in the same vein and adding MORE systems while existing systems are so broken and uninteresting to play without overhaul mods to actually make the worlds interesting to play in.

Happy we're finally getting regencies, but at this stage it seems like a band-aid. It seems like we won't get "catered to" until at least 2024.

 

[cavveman]

Also, beside anything i wonder where exactly this expansion is placed on floorplan from DD 109.

I would say religion(the pilgrim part), maybe weddings could go under religion?
And maybe late game? Tournaments historically started approximately around 1100.

 

[wilcoxchar]

Looks cool but why now?

Why now might be, just as with Royal Court with the court interface and Fate of Iberia with the struggles, so that they can add some of the more mechanically fundamental things that come with this DLC, such as the ruler having a physical location on the map and deeper character-holding interactions, early on when there's less already in the game to need to tether them to and so they have more of the core elements in place when adding things in later DLC. One example that comes to mind: now that they're expanding a characters' presence on the map and adding travel, if they later add the Papal Conclave and monastic orders in another DLC, they could potentially include things like the Cardinals physically traveling to Rome for the Conclave and having orders like the Benedictines and Dominicans have the physical on-map presence of a monastery in a holding building and having characters actually tied to a monastery. They wouldn't be able to do this without the mechanics already in place, and adding them further down the line would be a bigger hassle because of having more things to tie it into when they're adding it which might make it too much work to add. Instead now when they can add those more fundamental functions and build on their uses with the other things later.

 

[Trinita132]

If this DLC removes all kind of teleportation then It is probably the most important DLC in the history of Crusader Kings serie.

 

[FleetingRain]

Like. I don't think these ideas are bad. But they feel like you are just skirting around the issue. We were promised a revamp of old CK2 mechanics in due time, but it's been two years now and we still only get these trinkets as expansions. When will the Papacy, Crusades, the Byzantines etc be tackled by the dev team?

 

[The Shacks]

Just scrolled through the first few pages and I'm kind of surprised people arent more impressed by extra granularity in the simulation. (N)PCs will be actually moving around the map, physically located in places. If they are going to do this right it should mean there is proper, constant movement of actual important characters interacting with eachother in more meaningful ways. The fact kings can do royal tours finally means the game vaguely reflects what actual 'feudalism' looked like.

 

[SeekTruthFromFx]

I am broadly positive on this DLC. I wanted more peacetime mechanics and I've got them.

I really hope that that 'touring' function is more about an itinerant ruler who must stay on the move to survive, and not just a secular pilgrimage (like the Grand Tour of 18th century Europe). In particular, early medieval rulers stayed on the move because
(a) their courts tended to (literally) consume all their localities' resources, so it was necessary to spread the burden across your demense and vassals and
(b) politics was intensely personal: it was much harder to say "no" to your ruler's requests to his face and with his soldiers living in your hall.

Both of these elements should be easily reproducible in CK3. For example, the cost of your Royal Court's servants and lodgings could be deducted from the province where the King or Emperor is currently located (with a loss of Development & Loot if the cost is more than the province can support), not withdrawn from your treasury in the current abstract way. And you could get a Dread boost when you are in the same province as the person you are dealing with.

I also welcome the introduction of regencies and more detailed treatment of weddings and tournaments. I really hope that either there will be appropriate visuals & content for these in both western Europe and elsewhere, or they simply won't function elsewhere. Jousting in India would be the worst outcome.

However, can we expect to have Grand Weddings visualized into Royal Courts?

Did medieval weddings happen in rulers' halls? I can't immediately remember reading anything about this, but my default assumption is that Christian weddings in the CK3 era would happen in church buildings. If we're going to have 3D art, then proper representation of church buildings (and their equivalents in other religions) is likely to happen at some later point.

Very interesting but we can't see any "crusader" here...

Crusaders definitely took part in tournaments and several were constantly on the move to secure their domains. Plus several European countries had their histories greatly affected by the actions of regents while the nominal ruler was off crusading. Done properly, this DLC will greatly add to the crusading experience.

And I don’t understand why do a regency and a small DLC about the children of the rulers, because they are on almost the same topic, they also come out in a row.

Because players voted for it. We're getting what we wanted. I'm sorry if your option lost, but personally I am pleased about both. The Flavour Pack would have been far poorer if there was no regency mechanic, which we now know we are getting.

Not going to lie, I hope they don’t spend development time on a Royal Court visualization. Game desperately needs mechanics (which I’m hoping this DLC will add) and not more visuals for a 3 pronged event box.

Mechanics and 3D art are done by different people. They are going to make 3D models of something because:

I'm pretty sure they have those 3D artists on fixed contracts and don't hire them from time to time. So they will need to give them something to work on anyways.

This is right and I think it's a big reason why so many CK2 players are frustrated with CK3. 3D art is more expensive than 2D art (to a minor extent because of the cost of equipment and software, but mainly because good-quality 3D art takes longer). So although CK3 almost certainly has a bigger budget than CK2, the 3D artists will be consuming quite a lot of that. And co-ordinating the 3D art with the coders is probably a bit more complicated (for example, any 3D art for events need to be fitted into existing lighting and animation decisions, or new set-ups commissioned).

Slight failure of PR here: nowhere does it say whether T&T is an expansion or flavour pack. I'm assuming the former, but it's not obvious from either the OP or the trailer, and therefore what sort of price range are we looking at?

Putting together today's announcement, the road map, and the pricing policy implies this is a full expansion and therefore around €30/$30/£25.

This makes me suspect maybe there'll be some kind of interaction with intrigue. Or maybe just RNG accidents/bandit muggings, etc. But it would be cool if you could do something like set up an ambush/murder/kidnap plot and fire the plot when the target is in your county for a higher chance of success.

rageair said in the Announcement Show that this and weddings would be based around Intrigue, so that seems a fair conclusion.

 

[Miguelinileugim]

There seems to be a disconnect between what content is being produced and the expectations of long-time fans of the franchise. It is sad

I'm a new fan, what do old fans expect that I'm not aware of?

 

[sreckom92]

The tour and regent mechanic allow for so much potential growth. Why is everyone groaning, and moaning? As you well know, most of the mechanical changes will be free to expand upon later

To be honest, a lot of mechanics from CK3 has been hyped up to have much potential to expand. However, years are passing and nothing really expands.
Development, religion, men at arms, vassal contracts... We've been talking for years how this stuff sounds like a good starting point for implementing super exciting content upon it. But we are still waiting.

 

[Xefjord]

I am excited at least. I love roleplaying and I think this looks like an interesting expansion for the year. I am a former Sims player turned CK3 player so as I have said in previous forum posts, every DLC is just making a better version of the Sims when the Sims had already crashed and disappointed me.

Not like I hate strategy either. I played Civ, Total War, And AoE. I like the strategy in this game too even if I think it needs some work. But this is definitely going to be an easy buy for me even at 30 dollars. I have paid more for Sims expansions that gave me much less.

Like Royal Court it seems they are taking the PR hit by releasing the most important and exciting features (like regencies) for free while the rest of the more flavor content is paid. That is fine with me. I pay the devs not for the content in the expansion themselves as much as I do their continued development of the game because I think users really undervalue just how much amazing work they release for free as well.

 

[NoUsernamesHere]

You understand that they had concubines. Therefore no need for a wife

Hell, that's why I don't have a wife.

Minus the concubines, of course.

 

[Ganlix]

View attachment 953993

That looks to be positive by 51 points to me. There are several different positive reactions there that need to be summed together.

And I have to say, if you are against something or you feel strongly against, you are more likely to react. Thus amplifying the negative reactions compared to the positive ones

 

[darcinc]

Because players voted for it. You

Correction. I voted for Ward and Wardens when I had no idea what the next dlc was going to be. Now everyone will get two almost identical things in a row.

 

[TripleAgent]

I'm a new fan, what do old fans expect that I'm not aware of?

• Functional crusades that actually make sense as opposed to sending all your armies to faff around on the Sinai peninsula until they're out of supply and wiped.
• Actual pushback from strong councils when they disagree with the actions of the monarch.
• A papacy that actually matters
• Muslim rulers that are actually interesting and distinct to play
• Government law/types that actually affect playstyle.

 

[halbort]

@Wokeg
I see that it effects pilgrimages, hunts and feasts. I am wondering what about schemes like murder, abduct, seduce, romance and befriend. Will those take location into account?

 

[junassa]

This looks very interesting, and I hope it's moddable.

First rule of Dambe club...

 

[johnty5]

Why now might be, just as with Royal Court with the court interface and Fate of Iberia with the struggles, so that they can add some of the more mechanically fundamental things that come with this DLC, such as the ruler having a physical location on the map and deeper character-holding interactions, early on when there's less already in the game to need to tether them to and so they have more of the core elements in place when adding things in later DLC. One example that comes to mind: now that they're expanding a characters' presence on the map and adding travel, if they later add the Papal Conclave and monastic orders in another DLC, they could potentially include things like the Cardinals physically traveling to Rome for the Conclave and having orders like the Benedictines and Dominicans have the physical on-map presence of a monastery in a holding building and having characters actually tied to a monastery. They wouldn't be able to do this without the mechanics already in place, and adding them further down the line would be a bigger hassle because of having more things to tie it into when they're adding it which might make it too much work to add. Instead now when they can add those more fundamental functions and build on their uses with the other things later.

I think this is a really good point.

Implementing a location/travel system first opens up a load of exciting opportunities for nomad implementation (where the whole "moving around" thing is pretty central), trade/merchant republic implementation (travelling around to make trade deals, taking trade voyages) and a load of other stuff in a way that simply wouldn't be possible without it.

EDIT:

Travel/location mechanics could be really interesting in an epidemic system too - with courts fleeing affected areas or character travel spreading diseases themselves.

 

[Niall9]

I am most interested in how I can interact with other characters on tour.

The best bit about Royal Court wasn't you being able to hold court yourself. but better ways to petition your liege.

I have no interest in holding a bloody wedding but knowing the AI might do that to me is interesting. Similarly as a vassal having to host your liege.