CK3: Tours and Tournaments - The Vision

[Dimo87]

As I’ve mentioned before, it’s too early to reveal the theme. However, the next Expansion is leaning towards the roleplaying side of the game. To make things extra clear; we’re not doing trade, imperial/byzantine mechanics, nomads, or similar this time.

I get that people are upset that this is leaning more towards roleplay than gameplay mechanic focused. I'd rather have that too, but this shouldn't be a surprise. They clearly stated this in the floor plan last year.

My aspiration is to shift focus towards more systems-heavy expansions after the next one, and we’re gearing up the team to be able to do just that. I’m of the opinion that there must be balance, and as we’ll have had two roleplay-focused expansions in a row, by then it’ll be time for the scales to shift towards the systemic side. We’ve expanded our team of programmers significantly, so the future looks bright for those of you that crave new and exciting systemic content…

And here is them talking about doing more things that a lot of the community does want. I'd rather have it sooner like a lot of other people on here, but Paradox was upfront about this and Tours and Tournaments does sound cool. I'm happy to have more things to do during peace time.

 

[Greenfish]

I get that people are upset that this is leaning more towards roleplay than gameplay mechanic focused. I'd rather have that too, but this shouldn't be a surprise. They clearly stated this in the floor plan last year.

And here is them talking about doing more things that a lot of the community does want. I'd rather have it sooner like a lot of other people on here, but Paradox was upfront about this and Tours and Tournaments does sound cool. I'm happy to have more things to do during peace time.

Dude, my issue isn’t even that it’s geared towards RP, although naming your big DLC the same naming structure as the five dollar added RP kinda hints towards something else. It’s that it’s been more than a year to even announce it. It’s that this is our second (SECOND!!!!) DLC and despite making a roadmap, this is not even on the roadmap. It’s that everything we can see about this DLC is something that you might say “wouldn’t that be neat.”

 

[RKGrizz]

I am cautiously optimistic. I think RC was too much money for what it was, and if I hadn't gotten the Royal Edition, I would have waited for a sale, like I did with friends and foes to get it.
For this, I'm withholding full judgement until I see all the information. With any luck, the CK3 team will come through make this a good release day buy for me.

Just going to toss this out for the record, I am really glad they aren't rehashing CK2. I'm so tired of always being killed by satanists, and all the supernatural B.S. And I'm glad that they aren't touching Imperial mechanics, trade republics, and nomads yet, because I'd rather they don't repeat the ham handed way that CK2 handled them. For as much as some people complain that CK3 feels samey, CK2 wasn't much better. The only thing that felt different was the government types, within the same type, they all felt the same. Here, however, there is some damn variation in how the same government plays, even if it almost entirely based being in Spain or not.
CK2 wasn't deep, it was wide. Only deep mechanics in that game were the supernatural event chains.

You are glad that Byzantium doesn't have a any flavor? That the nomads who cover 30% of the map have zero mechanics outside the Mongol Empire? Seems like you don't care much about a complete CK3. We are going to be at least three years into this games life before we get another DLC after this one, and the fact that we have almost zero substantial additions beyond the culture update is sad.

 

[Renarin]

There seems to be a lot of complaining about the lack of refinements to things like military, economy, warfare, etc. But I actually think that this update could very well be a major cornerstone to improving all of those things: one of the big problems with expanding those mechanics in CKII and 3 was that the grand strategy map mechanics stuff was substantially disconnected from characters which limited the (non-janky, as opposed to MR and Nomads in CKII) complexity that you could add without being in tension with the character stuff; and even ignoring that the way that armies, economies, and governments interact with each other would basically require reworking them all all at once, since it's not like it would make sense to change up the economy (for example) when it only serves to give you troops and money to fuel decisions like feasts.

Having a mechanic that puts characters as actors on the map that actively interact with the land itself in addition to just characters, and all the code worked out on the back-end to do things like customize and supply tours and and such seems like the best possible foundation for expanding the complexity behind all of the map stuff while having it be thoroughly integrated into your character and also making something for the grand strategy elements to build of of that wouldn't require a full rewrite of the map stuff (which is something that's already kind of been hinted at, with the talk of how certain buildings and such have been changed and the new economic map mode). And since PDX said that the next update wouldn't be anything like a war/economy/empire update and back in the floorplan, the fact that there's this much potential is genuinely positive news for the grand strategy side of the game.

Thinking of ways that tours or tour-like mechanics could be used in expanding other aspects of the game (assuming PDX doesn't invent or reinvent entirely new systems with no relation to handle them, of course) and this is what popped in my head after around 30 minutes:
Economy: merchant or banker expeditions started by Merchant Republics, Holy Orders, or rulers who start fairs whilst controlling major cities that move on a path through wealthy cities and overseas, potentially interacting with rulers, bringing different boons based on the regions they've traveled through. Actual Merchant Republic mechanics beyond "spam trade posts until capped, buy the election forever". Integration of trade/commerce and pilgrimage/Holy Sites. Changing cultural acceptance and spreading tech through commercial tours.
Religion: missionaries. Other kinds of religious missions meant to impact local clergy, set up monastics, etc. Projection of culture and tech as above.
Government/Politics: Literally everything to do with Nomads. Merchant Republics and their politics with other rulers. Representing a distinction between different types of centralization: ruler vs vassals and capitols vs itinerant courts. Representing different administrative styles or alternatives within those spectrums. New political actions to take with vassals (already mentioned somewhat in dev diary).
Warfare: planning a campaign in a way that isn't pure stack micro. Choosing different military operations to perform. like chevauchee. Adding in knight/vassal/soldier management to warfare, and generally politicise the actual fighting of the war. Different command systems, like the Theme system. Crusading chaos, including people going off to make their own teeny lil crusader states in the middle of it, or Richard the Lionheart having to sneak back home to avoid being kidnapped by random people for ransom, etc. Generally giving your character actions they can take to be a leader beyond "be an observer with a high Martial score and hope not to die".

 

[RKGrizz]

There seems to be a lot of complaining about the lack of refinements to things like military, economy, warfare, etc. But I actually think that this update could very well be a major cornerstone to improving all of those things: one of the big problems with expanding those mechanics in CKII and 3 was that the grand strategy map mechanics stuff was substantially disconnected from characters which limited the (non-janky, as opposed to MR and Nomads in CKII) complexity that you could add without being in tension with the character stuff; and even ignoring that the way that armies, economies, and governments interact with each other would basically require reworking them all all at once, since it's not like it would make sense to change up the economy (for example) when it only serves to give you troops and money to fuel decisions like feasts.

Having a mechanic that puts characters as actors on the map that actively interact with the land itself in addition to just characters, and all the code worked out on the back-end to do things like customize and supply tours and and such seems like the best possible foundation for expanding the complexity behind all of the map stuff while having it be thoroughly integrated into your character and also making something for the grand strategy elements to build of of that wouldn't require a full rewrite of the map stuff (which is something that's already kind of been hinted at, with the talk of how certain buildings and such have been changed and the new economic map mode). And since PDX said that the next update wouldn't be anything like a war/economy/empire update and back in the floorplan, the fact that there's this much potential is genuinely positive news for the grand strategy side of the game.

Thinking of ways that tours or tour-like mechanics could be used in expanding other aspects of the game (assuming PDX doesn't invent or reinvent entirely new systems with no relation to handle them, of course) and this is what popped in my head after around 30 minutes:
Economy: merchant or banker expeditions started by Merchant Republics, Holy Orders, or rulers who start fairs whilst controlling major cities that move on a path through wealthy cities and overseas, potentially interacting with rulers, bringing different boons based on the regions they've traveled through. Actual Merchant Republic mechanics beyond "spam trade posts until capped, buy the election forever". Integration of trade/commerce and pilgrimage/Holy Sites. Changing cultural acceptance and spreading tech through commercial tours.
Religion: missionaries. Other kinds of religious missions meant to impact local clergy, set up monastics, etc. Projection of culture and tech as above.
Government/Politics: Literally everything to do with Nomads. Merchant Republics and their politics with other rulers. Representing a distinction between different types of centralization: ruler vs vassals and capitols vs itinerant courts. Representing different administrative styles or alternatives within those spectrums. New political actions to take with vassals (already mentioned somewhat in dev diary).
Warfare: planning a campaign in a way that isn't pure stack micro. Choosing different military operations to perform. like chevauchee. Adding in knight/vassal/soldier management to warfare, and generally politicise the actual fighting of the war. Different command systems, like the Theme system. Crusading chaos, including people going off to make their own teeny lil crusader states in the middle of it, or Richard the Lionheart having to sneak back home to avoid being kidnapped by random people for ransom, etc. Generally giving your character actions they can take to be a leader beyond "be an observer with a high Martial score and hope not to die".

Pure speculation and wishful thinking. Where in CK3's development have we seen them adapt the DLC features into new systems down the line?

 

[greywulfos]

I just hope that nomads will be tradition or ethos and not goverment type. Being able to pack your things up and move to another place should not to be linked to how your realm is governed.
Edit. Or at least be a flag you can add to government type just like

Tbf being able to simply leave would be a little weird if you were, say, Anglo-Saxon England or the Byzantine Empire, where a fixed capital served as your realm's seat of government - in which case, your inability to be constantly on the move would be part and parcel of your governmental structure. Or idk, later France.

 

[grommile]

how CK3 is turtle slow in development make me wonder how long a playerbase have time left before Devs will move this game to Legacy Graveyard.

CK3's current simultaneous-player numbers for the past 30 days are 19375 peak and ~11700 average. For comparison:

EU4: 23686 peak, ~14600 average
Stellaris: 20670 peak, ~13300 average
HOI4: 51056 peak, ~30000 average
Vic3: 8413 peak, ~5100 average
Imperator (May 2019 release) in June 2019: 1610 peak, ~830 average

 

[Renarin]

Pure speculation and wishful thinking. Where in CK3's development have we seen them adapt the DLC features into new systems down the line?

We've seen features from Norhtern Lords folded into the culture system of Royal Court, and Fate of Iberia adding more content to Culture and court-specific stuff.
And in CKII (which we have more data on) there could be plenty of overlap in content, like the different DLCs that allowed you to play as pagans, for instance.

 

[BloodyPuma]

Pure speculation and wishful thinking. Where in CK3's development have we seen them adapt the DLC features into new systems down the line?

Exactly my point.

Its like a syndrom of inability to go back because of costly involvement.

They clearly did a few good featuers (iberian strugle CB fe.). It was quite a refreshment. Born for a dlc, died with a small regional dlc.
I get that they get that they do fail out expectations. They do try. But there is no continuity, no momentum.

Thats why again they offer us sth that will not stop playerbase exodus.

 

[BloodyPuma]

CK3's current simultaneous-player numbers for the past 30 days are 19375 peak and ~11700 average. For comparison:

EU4: 23686 peak, ~14600 average
Stellaris: 20670 peak, ~13300 average
HOI4: 51056 peak, ~30000 average
Vic3: 8413 peak, ~5100 average
Imperator (May 2019 release) in June 2019: 1610 peak, ~830 average

Great. More people - more client. More client - more money. Wanna earn more? sell more.
Do you see it here? Nope.

As for data:
compare ck1 ck2 and ck3 first 2 years of forum activity. Then check wikis ofr ck1 ck2 ck3. Spot the difference.

 

[davidmrc]

There seems to be a lot of complaining about the lack of refinements to things like military, economy, warfare, etc. But I actually think that this update could very well be a major cornerstone to improving all of those things: one of the big problems with expanding those mechanics in CKII and 3 was that the grand strategy map mechanics stuff was substantially disconnected from characters which limited the (non-janky, as opposed to MR and Nomads in CKII) complexity that you could add without being in tension with the character stuff; and even ignoring that the way that armies, economies, and governments interact with each other would basically require reworking them all all at once, since it's not like it would make sense to change up the economy (for example) when it only serves to give you troops and money to fuel decisions like feasts.

Having a mechanic that puts characters as actors on the map that actively interact with the land itself in addition to just characters, and all the code worked out on the back-end to do things like customize and supply tours and and such seems like the best possible foundation for expanding the complexity behind all of the map stuff while having it be thoroughly integrated into your character and also making something for the grand strategy elements to build of of that wouldn't require a full rewrite of the map stuff (which is something that's already kind of been hinted at, with the talk of how certain buildings and such have been changed and the new economic map mode). And since PDX said that the next update wouldn't be anything like a war/economy/empire update and back in the floorplan, the fact that there's this much potential is genuinely positive news for the grand strategy side of the game.

Thinking of ways that tours or tour-like mechanics could be used in expanding other aspects of the game (assuming PDX doesn't invent or reinvent entirely new systems with no relation to handle them, of course) and this is what popped in my head after around 30 minutes:
Economy: merchant or banker expeditions started by Merchant Republics, Holy Orders, or rulers who start fairs whilst controlling major cities that move on a path through wealthy cities and overseas, potentially interacting with rulers, bringing different boons based on the regions they've traveled through. Actual Merchant Republic mechanics beyond "spam trade posts until capped, buy the election forever". Integration of trade/commerce and pilgrimage/Holy Sites. Changing cultural acceptance and spreading tech through commercial tours.
Religion: missionaries. Other kinds of religious missions meant to impact local clergy, set up monastics, etc. Projection of culture and tech as above.
Government/Politics: Literally everything to do with Nomads. Merchant Republics and their politics with other rulers. Representing a distinction between different types of centralization: ruler vs vassals and capitols vs itinerant courts. Representing different administrative styles or alternatives within those spectrums. New political actions to take with vassals (already mentioned somewhat in dev diary).
Warfare: planning a campaign in a way that isn't pure stack micro. Choosing different military operations to perform. like chevauchee. Adding in knight/vassal/soldier management to warfare, and generally politicise the actual fighting of the war. Different command systems, like the Theme system. Crusading chaos, including people going off to make their own teeny lil crusader states in the middle of it, or Richard the Lionheart having to sneak back home to avoid being kidnapped by random people for ransom, etc. Generally giving your character actions they can take to be a leader beyond "be an observer with a high Martial score and hope not to die".

There is nothing wrong your point of view and wish I still felt this way...
However, based on the fact that Royal Court could have addressed the monotonous mid/late game, when you become king/emperor and turned out to be a gimmicky stat modifier that is fun the first time you interact with and nothing more after that, The Iberian struggle being extremely stiff and repetitive after the first game, plus the fact that both systems don't interact with each other in any meaningful way, they are asking people to buy another DLC to build the foundation to something that might be fully realized 3 DLCs down the road, whenever that finally releases. Could this be the one to finally deliver? Sure, but I wouldn't hold my breath. So far, every DLC, has a lot of potential to connect the dots and create a fun and in depth gameplay loop, but 2 years later, we have a bunch of misfit puzzle pieces with no clear picture for the whole thing.

 

[oreopirate]

You are glad that Byzantium doesn't have a any flavor? That the nomads who cover 30% of the map have zero mechanics outside the Mongol Empire? Seems like you don't care much about a complete CK3. We are going to be at least three years into this games life before we get another DLC after this one, and the fact that we have almost zero substantial additions beyond the culture update is sad.

Buddy, you got to learn to read. I said I want them to have a fresh take on it in CK3, rather than CK2's hamhanded approach. I would rather wait for something new and innovative, even if I don't like it, than see them copy and paste stuff from CK2.
If I wanted CK2 content, I'd be playing CK2.

CK2 was only complete at the end of it's dev cycle. CK3 won't be complete until the end of it's lifespan, and is stands, it's in a better a spot. CK3 base game integrated the bulk of about 6 CK2 dlc right from the get go.

Am I enthused about the state of the game? Not at all, but am I cautiousl;y optimistic? Yes. Because the bones of what it has is superior to wait CK2 had in three expansions.

You, my friend, need to read before you blindly respond, because you missed the entire point of my post.

Pure speculation and wishful thinking. Where in CK3's development have we seen them adapt the DLC features into new systems down the line?

I don't like having to be a voice of reason. But let's start here.

My aspiration is to shift focus towards more systems-heavy expansions after the next one, and we’re gearing up the team to be able to do just that. I’m of the opinion that there must be balance, and as we’ll have had two roleplay-focused expansions in a row, by then it’ll be time for the scales to shift towards the systemic side. We’ve expanded our team of programmers significantly, so the future looks bright for those of you that crave new and exciting systemic content…

They had previously stated that they Fates of Iberia and RC were too close together in development to using anything from each other. So they have not had time yet.
The above quote is only from October, we were warned that they would have a longer dev cycle that they aim to shorten, but made no promises.
Dislike it all you want, but we know that the next expansion, be it late 2023, or early 2024 will be mechanical focused. There and maybe in this one are the first chance they have to integrate stuff from FoI, and RC. And we won't know how they interact until they show us more, they just announced it.

 

[Flockingbird]

I repeat:

I think finding time to add more content to one of the older systems is better done in the Flavour Packs, but with parallel development it is also difficult to do. Take Fate of Iberia and the Royal Court. They were released about 3-4 months apart, and that is not a lot of time for Fate of Iberia to adapt the features we added later in the development of RoCo. I cannot remember quite when FoI got access to all the stable features of RoCo, but adding content that uses the RoCo features would need to have time to implement, test and verify that it would all work.

So adding content that uses RC or FoI features to the next expansion is more likely than F&F features, presumably.

 

[grommile]

Born for a dlc, died with a small regional dlc.

CK3 has four gameplay DLCs, listed here in chronological order:

1. Northern Lords flavour pack for Scandinavia
2. Royal Court expansion
3. Fate of Iberia flavour pack for the Iberian peninsula
4. Friends & Foes event pack

An "event pack" does not seem like the kind of DLC that would use the Struggle system introduced in Patch 1.6, so saying that the feature is dead is premature, because we haven't had any more Flavour Packs since FoI.

Great. More people - more client. More client - more money. Wanna earn more? sell more.
Do you see it here? Nope.

You expressed a concern over it being "Imperatored".

I provided numbers to illustrate that CK3 being moved to the Legacy Graveyard is not yet a remotely serious concern.

 

[BloodyPuma]

CK3 has four gameplay DLCs, listed here in chronological order:

1. Northern Lords flavour pack for Scandinavia
2. Royal Court expansion
3. Fate of Iberia flavour pack for the Iberian peninsula
4. Friends & Foes event pack

An "event pack" does not seem like the kind of DLC that would use the Struggle system introduced in Patch 1.6, so saying that the feature is dead is premature, because we haven't had any more Flavour Packs since FoI.

You expressed a concern over it being "Imperatored".

I provided numbers to illustrate that CK3 being moved to the Legacy Graveyard is not yet a remotely serious concern.

Yep, OFC, not now, but we are on that train. We will slowly be getting there without good decisive intervention.

As for 1.6 - may lat year. Its march now. Pretty dead.

 

[james24eagle]

Could this be a government re-work similar to the religion re-work we got with Royal Court?

 

[eagletrekkie]

Yep, OFC, not now, but we are on that train. We will slowly be getting there without good decisive intervention.

As for 1.6 - may lat year. Its march now. Pretty dead.

There's been 1.7 and 1.8 since then, with 1.8 coming out in December? I don't understand what you're getting at with this.

 

[Baron LeMay]

There seems to be a disconnect between what content is being produced and the expectations of long-time fans of the franchise. It is sad

this is honestly exactly what i want from crusader kings development, as someone who's been playing paradox games for a long time now. I think there's more a disconnect between which fans spend time sharing feedback on the forums and which ones don't, and between people who play each paradox game for different reasons

 

[BloodyPuma]

There's been 1.7 and 1.8 since then, with 1.8 coming out in December? I don't understand what you're getting at with this.

As in OG post. About new feature that we were all hyped. It was introduced and thats all. Dead since then. No continuity despite great positive feedback. Reread my post.

 

[grommile]

Yep, OFC, not now, but we are on that train. We will slowly be getting there without good decisive intervention.

Slowly. Yes. As in... I don't know, over a ten-year period?

As for 1.6 - may lat year. Its march now. Pretty dead.

If the next regional flavour pack doesn't use the Struggle mechanic, I will be happy to agree with you. (Though I dare say the modders will disagree.)

Until the next regional flavour pack comes out, though, the rumours of its death can be neither verified nor falsified.