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The Ninth Circle – Invictus
The Ninth Circle – Invictus

There were three distinct groups within the bandit encampment, Ouster had come to learn. The first were the melancholic. They had been broken, possibly long before the war had ever touched them, and now existed as somnambulists. They did very little except breath and wander around aimlessly, and sleep. The second group were far more…alive. The hedonists had been broken in a different way and filled their days with liquor and sex in exorbitant amounts. Any singing or shouting was near-universally one or more of them up to no good. They were by far the least disturbing however, especially when considering the anarchists. This group, headed by the comrade of no fixed name or rationality, prowled around like jackals in a chicken hutch. Often, they fought, picked out victims, attacked each other, and took the most relish in…interacting…with Ouster’s men.

The comrade was something of a mystery, a man of at least some brain and strength but certainly long since driven past the point of reason. He appeared in many ways similar to a feral hunting dog leashed to Vlast, and much like the countrymen of Ouster’s social circles, the bandit leader should have put the beast down long ago.

“He has his uses,” the giant said, with some humour.

“He causes fear and discontent in your ranks,” Ouster disagreed. “A degree of healthy respect backed by a touch of fear is healthy and useful in your soldiers, but ultimately any cause where its members are afraid of being randomly attacked by their own side is not going to succeed.”

“Yet Prussia subdued their neighbours to forge Germany, through war.”

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“Not just war. We had a tremendous amount of good fortune on our side. Bismarck himself did not expect to live to see unification. It took the threat of an outside force, well-played on our part, as well as numerous and persistent good diplomacy and economy that brought us through. You will not be winning any meaningful victories or wars if your only tool is violence.”

“You had culture too. Words and understanding. Look at my men! This largest country in the world, empire from Baltic to Pacific, linked only through the worthless tsardom itself. There is no common tongue, no common understanding, no…story...to tell ourselves as to why we are one people…because we are not one. Yet any move to reform and repair, so that broken people may become something more…involves the breaking of the only tenuous bond that keeps the whole façade alive.”

Ouster nodded slowly. “It is a tragedy, when put that way. The Russian people have a long history of being quashed and terrorised by outsiders and their own rulers alike…but as you say, only force keeps everything west of St Petersburg and everything east of the Urals within your empire.” He shook his head. “Germany was an idea long before it was a nation, and it was a nation long before it was a state. I do not know how you can do all three at once.”

“Yet we must. Lest history repeat over and over. When your country is done here, and they give the Poles their kingdom back from us, yes you will chain them somewhat to you…but Poland will live. They have a history, and thus can have a future. Imagination,” he prodded his great head in frustration, “is key. What do we have except…” he tailed off.

Ouster let him think in silence, as he considered, for the dozenth time that day, what he thought of the man in front of him. Vlast was…difficult to pin down. He was intensively clever, that much was certain. Ouster more and more found himself under the unsettling impression that he was locked in a room with a far smarter person than he was, who was unfortunately a lot larger and stronger too. Had he been born in any other European country…this was a man who could have risen to the top, despite his circumstances, either as a soldier or as a writer or as a thinker of some kind. Ouster also genuinely did feel sorry for the picture the man painted of Russia, and how crushed its people were, and how bleak their future was when Germany defeated them. In many ways, they were in an even worse place than the Austrians, who fought against a dozen nations within their own borders.

In Russia, it seemed there was no people at all, only bodies.

Of course, Ouster knew it was not so. St Petersburg and Moscow and other cities had produced fine artwork, music, literature, thought and so on and so forth…but it had clearly not penetrated the soil of the state, as it were. The people themselves were ignorant of what little had been accomplished, swallowed either by the vast distances of the country or the similar vast gulf between the rich and the poor.

He had few answers or knowledge to give to Vlast…though the man did not seem to mind much. Ouster knew a messenger had been sent out a short while ago to inquire as to the ‘price’ of his men’s lives with German Command.

He had another uncomfortable feeling that these bandits were using him for something other than money or learning.


The Admiral’s arm spasmed and a few drops of liquid fell from the disturbed glass. He set it down before him on the table with a grimace, glancing around to check no one had seen his error.
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Then he brought his hand to rub at the gently wrapped stump.

A few days prior, his doctor had advised him that it would be to his best interests to begin weaning his way off the opioid concoction that had been administered to him for months now. Neither gentleman wished to see an addiction take hold, and thus Radcliffe’s fellows and companions were also quietly informed, both to offer sympathy and to ensure that vice did not arise, nor another took its place.

On his ship, that would not have been such a problem. The rum ration was sacrosanct, naturally, and there was precious little else for an officer to be tempted with unless he brought it with him. On land however, lay the realm of the Mess, the Canteen, and the Club, which he was by protocol and society obliged to visit most evenings.

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It did not help that an Englishman dressed for dinner with little regard for the weather or season, especially in the tropics. They had a principle of civilization to prove. As he continued to broil under the collar, David sat down next to him, having finally escaped some local dignitary in town for one night only.

“Odious man. Hideous wife.”

Radcliffe paused his ministration and glanced up. “You could have waited for them to be more than three meters away.”

“Bah! Anyway, arm not so good? You know they did allow you to drink these for the pain. So…drink.”

He nudged the gin and tonic closer.

“I’m currently having tremors. Though whether that is from the absence of limb or drug I am uncertain.”

David patted his shoulder above the bad arm. “Best not to think about it unless it lasts. A few of these should help though. They did yesterday.”

Radcliffe shrugged. “That’s true. Although I did also start the exercises too.”

“Ah, well then. Some strain is to be expected. Oh! I also found you these,” he threw a pack down. “Cigarettes. Turkish, ironically, but they’re good. Medico says they’ll be better than your navy ash.”

Radcliffe grunted. “A few weeks ago, they were banging on about maintaining a pipe to ensure dexterity.”

David wilted a little but rallied. “Well…if it helps…?”

The Admiral sighed. “Forgive me David. That was very thoughtful of you. Though…” he frowned, “I will have to figure out lighting them one-handed.”

“I’m sure when they fit you with your hook, they can add an attachment.”

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That finally got a smirk from Radcliffe, and the two friends chuckled together.

“God, it’s hot,” David said, after a while.

“Believe it or not, going down the Red Sea can be even worse. Deathly still air, baking sun and no relief whatsoever. We had to turn the ship around and around to keep the air even partly flowing, I recall.”

“Never been,” David said idly.

“You very just might, you know. Fastest way to South Africa, and I’m sure they’ll want you in India to visit one day. Perhaps even Australia?”

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“Now that would be an adventure,” David smiled. “Today was smashing, of course. Took another fly in one of the Major’s planes. Fantastic stuff. We’re really making progress with these contraptions. Imagine being able to fly over an ocean as well as sail upon it.”

Nodding, Radcliffe replied, “Yes, that’s very much within the Admiralty’s mind. Hence your interest is noted and appreciated.”

The Prince scoffed. “For as long as its worth, perhaps.”

Radcliffe frowned and was about to reply but was interrupted by a servant approaching the table. He was handed a small slip of card and a whispered request to join Sir Berkley in a side room.

“Excuse me, David.”

It was past dinner and the night shifts commencing, so there should be few reasons why the Commander-in-Chief needed to see him so urgently. There must have been a communique from London, or a profoundly important development from the Egyptian army.

“Good evening, sir.”

“Good evening Rodger. Word from London.”

“Oh?” He took the enclosed telegram:

RADCLIFFE RETURN WITH FAMILY STOP ALL SPEED STOP

“Family?”

“The Prince of Wales,” Radcliffe answered idly, re-reading the short message. “Was this encoded as well?”

“Yes.”

“Hmm…are there any ships due to return presently? Otherwise, I suppose I will take the Invincible back. They were using it in Pompey anyway.”

“There are a few supply ships due to sail in 48 hours…will that be enough time to wrap up here?”

“It will do. They clearly don’t want us to linger.”

“Is this the big one, then?”

The younger admiral looked up at the elder. “Perhaps, but more likely this will be the summit at which we decide…or are told…what the big one is.”

Sir Berkley chuckled. “That sounds familiar. Well, it has been a pleasure, Lord Radcliffe. I shall be sorry to see you go.”

Radcliffe shook his hand, then shrugged. “It may well be we are coming back here with even more ships to try and crack Anatolia. Or as likely, they strip the Med dry and go all out in the North Sea.”

“Our area does seem to be quietening down now, yes…I have heard on the grapevine the army is transferring some old campaigners to East Africa to try and squash that problem flat. It’s the only spot of bother we have left, now the Arabs seem to be on side and Persia is safe.”

“Actually being home for Christmas 1915 was not something I expected when sent out here. Fortune smiled on us.”

“Good show. Give the lieutenant my regards. He’s...” the man considered, “a very interesting young chap. He still on about those aeroplanes?”

“Indeed, more and more so.”

“Hmm. Pull on that thread. He may not rank due to circumstance, but we could do much worse for a commission head.”

Radcliffe considered. “Well…yes, perhaps. I doubt they’ll want him in the thick of things regardless. Even Cyprus was a little too much, apparently.”

“Oh dear,” Berkley chuckled again, “been knocked off the New Years List?”

“Christ, don’t remind me. If the Duke hasn’t pinned me full to match the military pips, I’ll be surprised.”

“Take it on the chin, good chap. There are far worse problems to have.”

“I know, I have one of those, also,” Radcliffe said dryly, raising his left arm in farewell. “Evening, sir.”

“Take care, Admiral.”

“What was that all about?” David said, two fresh glasses on front of him.

“Pack your things, we’re being summoned home.” Radcliffe looked sourly down at the gin and tonic, and downed half of it in one.

“Typical. When one complains about the heat, the old man somehow hears and gets it into his head we would prefer sleet and shit of London instead.”

“That is no talk for a lieutenant commander,” Radcliffe chided.

“Lay off, I’m not…what?” David looked discombobulated. “Does the Palace know that?”

“They will by the time we’re underway.”

David looked at him blankly, before erupting into laughter. “Good lord, you really are trying to get out of that knighthood, aren’t you?”

Radcliffe twitched in annoyance. “Certainly not, it is well deserved. I also strongly suspect this will be the highest rank you are allowed to achieve, so enjoy it, for what it is worth.” David sobered. “If my suspicions are correct, we may well be parting ways after all this, so hopefully the experience and rank will have you placed somewhere useful. We need a man to lead the naval aviation enquiries, after all.”

“I’m no bureaucrat, Rodger,” David said, a little gloomily. “Bugger. I was actually enjoying being here, you know? It’s not half bad. The men are good chaps. The weather is tolerable. The planes are excellent.”

“You’ll find things of interest in England, now you know,” Radcliffe urged. “Take a factory tour, find out about engines. Get some bloody funding for weaponizing the air.”

“Build my own zeppelin,” David mused.

“A what? Oh…the airship?”

“Yes…slow things, but impressive. Can carry more than the winged craft can. Maybe drop explosives or something?”

“That’s…can the Germans do that?”

“Perhaps. Hmm…yes, now you mention, we should probably make sure someone is looking into that, because shooting one down is going to be tricky.”

“There you are then,” Radcliffe reassured him. “Plenty to be getting on with.”

“I suppose I will do some royal shit too. Hospitals, factories…might be fun.”

“You never know.”

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“Alright, old chap. Let’s get some more drinks and think it through.”

Ouster struggled not to react to the heavy blow. The comrade was in one of his moods, and Vlast was away doing something or other…or perhaps was in the next room listening. Who could really tell?

“I do not lie, Herr Ouster. But I was explaining, before being so rudely interrupted. I have been in my current…occupation…for some time now. I have gotten very good at inflicting death, and very good at inflicting pain. There are three issues that I see with the latter. You of course wish to know them. The first is that everyone breaks. I can get you to say and do anything, given time and exercise on my part. You also have nothing that I wish to know. So, the second thing. At a certain point, and alas I have not yet found the sweet spot, a man enters what you might call a stupor or drugged high, where pain transfers to pleasure and such delight is evident on his face. Therefore, one must take extra care to be patient, and not get too carried away with the fun.”

Ouster forced himself not to nod along. The Prussians had found out these things for themselves in military intelligence gathering, and he was hardly new to the practice himself.

“The final thing is that whilst every man will break, there is also the point at which a man will die. This is to be avoided at all costs by the practitioner, whether he be out for himself or for information. If you begin to hurt a man, break his bones, tear his skin, he will fight. He will think of escape and of killing you and of victory. But cut off his hand, remove his manhood from him…the fight stops, for what is the point? How can he think of escape when his life as he knows it is already over? He has been reduced too far, too fast. No, no. Hence, of course, our offer to you.”

Ouster sighed and noted how wet it sounded. He was probably developing something from the chill of the cells and the air of the place. “Is there any point to this?”

The Russian sighed in disappointment and wagged his finger like a schoolmaster at an errant pupil. “Of course, of course.” A slap to the face. “The German mind may be slow, but you should be able to follow the details.” Slap. “A man is a complicated machine, but he is also an animal. Eminently trainable. Easily breakable.” Slap. “And I do dearly want to see you break.”

“Vlast does not.”

“Vlast…is something else.” The comrade considered. “He is…what you would call…a visionary. A great man. In need of butchers and cleaners to do his great work. But it is the people of Russia who will reclaim our country and make it our own. The way of pain guides us, has made us strong, and good at taking and receiving. The world will know the pain a strong Russia can deliver and survive. You will know fear, before your end, Ouster.”

Ouster kept his head bowed and eyes fixed to the floor. With the ringing in his ears and the pain flushing his cheeks, the various escape plans he was concocting grew clearer and stronger. When he was pushed back into the cellar into Hans’ arms, he started whispering.

“Seriously?” Hans murmured, never taking his eyes off the door.

“Only way. You’ll be ready?”

“Yes. How will we know?”

Ouster sighed and closed his eyes. “Oh, I think you’ll hear it.”
 
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Perhaps, and forgive me if it is gauche, but somnambulists?

Huh...I believe this one really is a poor spellchecker switching the correct word for some nonsense.

Thanks.
 
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Well, Ouster is not in an enviable position right now. I suspect he’ll get out of this one soon enough, though.

Britain seems to be adapting air warfare, which shall prove useful for them.

That’s a very interesting view of Russia. I wonder if it’s foreshadowing that Russia’s fate will be division…
 
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Well, Ouster is not in an enviable position right now. I suspect he’ll get out of this one soon enough, though.

The nature of the format means we all know he'll get out of it, but how and all in one piece are up in the air. He has to get everyone else out too.

Britain seems to be adapting air warfare, which shall prove useful for them.

Them having planes in Egypt already made sure the ottoman surprise attack on suez was not so surprising as the central powers would have hoped. That is OTL. They've since been used for a ton of scouting and reconnaissance. The germans properly figure out fighter plan combat in July 1915, and the western front by the end of the year has seen a lot of aerial dogfights.

Not much of that at all in the middle east, but the Prince will be reading newspapers and reports of it, and getting excited.

That’s a very interesting view of Russia. I wonder if it’s foreshadowing that Russia’s fate will be division…

The average peasant knows bascially nothing about Russia other than its big, orthodox and tsarist. Whilst there is a common slavic language and cultural group, even within the 'core' of the country from Moscow to the urals, I wouldn't call it a unified, stable or nation state yet. Whoever takes over doesn't quite have to invent the concept of Russia, but they really do have to create 'russians' and an ideology, culture or shared story that links them all together.

There are good reasons why internationalist socialism spread so well in a place full of internal divisions but a lot of hungry workers.

Whilst the politics of power and violence mean that unity is probable eventually, I could certainly see Russia splitting into a few different geographical regimes fighting amongst each other, much as it happened OTL, but moreso.
 
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So, to answer your question here, had you wanted the US involved in the war, Wilson could absolutely have been president. His goals for the war before his hand was forced were to punish the European powers, essentially he wanted "peace without victory" because he felt any victory would simply sow the seeds for further conflicts. Far before the 14 Points or anything, he offered a way out for the powers in 1916: to spell our their wars aims that would justify the carnage. The German PM issued a similar though call, though evaded issuing Germany's war aims. The intolerance from Washington regarding the Wall Street funding for the Entente was such that the war could have ended with a bankrupt Entente in 1916/7 had the U-boats not been unleashed: J. P. Morgan was trying to raise over a billion dollars in funds for the Entente in November of that year, and the US came very close to turning the taps off for the British. For further reading, I highly recommend The Deluge by Adam Tooze. He goes into great detail of the situation.
 
So, to answer your question here, had you wanted the US involved in the war, Wilson could absolutely have been president. His goals for the war before his hand was forced were to punish the European powers, essentially he wanted "peace without victory" because he felt any victory would simply sow the seeds for further conflicts. Far before the 14 Points or anything, he offered a way out for the powers in 1916: to spell our their wars aims that would justify the carnage. The German PM issued a similar though call, though evaded issuing Germany's war aims. The intolerance from Washington regarding the Wall Street funding for the Entente was such that the war could have ended with a bankrupt Entente in 1916/7 had the U-boats not been unleashed: J. P. Morgan was trying to raise over a billion dollars in funds for the Entente in November of that year, and the US came very close to turning the taps off for the British. For further reading, I highly recommend The Deluge by Adam Tooze. He goes into great detail of the situation.

The problem is that I just can't see the Democrats bouncing back that quickly from the cluster fire that was the Spanish amercian war. Not when the next two Republican preisdents were that popular, and with Taft in the wings ready to take over in 1912.

1916 is the first year the Democrats stand a chance of getting back into office...and I can't see them running on a pro war, interventionist or Wilson ticket. I doubt the Republicans would run on intervention either by 1916. Getting involved in the great war after 2 years looks like an absolutely horrible idea both in terms of economics and in cost of human lives.

In terms of finances, the British don't particularly want to deal with them either but will increasingly have to, and increasingly with deals heavily favouring the US. Given the economic and trade balance between the two before the war was skewed towards the Empire, a forward looking US government very possibly would seize the chance to make a large profit, twist the knife at the same time, and ultimately see the Entente succeed...at a heavy price.

Because ultimately, despite everything TTL, I sense the US probably does want the Entente to win in the end, at least at a high level subconscious thought. They're the 'defender' side from a neutral perspective, have France and the Netherlands fighting for their very existence (so it seems), have successfully pinned naval warfare to the north sea thus far and are otherwise completely dominant on the oceans (and maintain the status quo, which benefits the US), and have more easily supportable war goals (restoration for France and Netherlands, the total surrender of the central powers, a return to peace and stability in Europe so far as possible, and, from 1916, liberation of oppressed peoples from the Ottoman Empire).

Meanwhile the Germans ostensibly attacked and invaded both France and the Netherlands (the latter a totally neutral bystander), have open commitments to redrawing the European and world map, are an absolutist monarchy, with absolute feudal monarchy allies, and have done some very nasty things in occupied Low Countries, that have been broadcast around the world by the Entente press.
 
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ultimately any cause where its members are afraid of being randomly attacked by their own side is not going to succeed.”
And yet Communism. For all that the Soviet Union was falling apart economically it was the lack of applied violence that ultimately saw Gorbachev fall and Yeltsin rise. Or at the beginning Mao, who also loved a good purge even when he was reduced to a dozen men and a goat hiding in the mountains.

Vlast is going to need to either get a handle on his thugs or eliminate them. His rise to power will of course need violent henchmen, but only if they are under his control. Still, it is getting Ouster a good and painful kicking, which he richly deserves, so I'm not particularly complaining about the current state of affairs.

For the other part I see the war continues to be good for David, I hope he enjoys his aerial commission back in the UK.
 
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The two chief younger protagonists find themselves in very different and contrasting personal circumstances, yet both going through a painful process of forging into what I presume they will become: the respective national leaders of Britain and Germany in the Second Innings. Perhaps Vlast too, leader of some kind of anarcho-radical, authoritarian, peasant based Russian state. The crucible is in evidence. Each even has a sidekick for the adventures to come: David (handy having a future king as a side-kick, so long as he doesn’t implode), Hans and the dreaded Comrade. Assuming they all survive that long.
 
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And yet Communism. For all that the Soviet Union was falling apart economically it was the lack of applied violence that ultimately saw Gorbachev fall and Yeltsin rise. Or at the beginning Mao, who also loved a good purge even when he was reduced to a dozen men and a goat hiding in the mountains.

Yes...I rather think that Vlast is nodding along to Ouster whilst noting the threat of violence has gotten this proud prussian to actually advise an (ostensible) Russian deserter in charge of a gang of anarchists.

Vlast is going to need to either get a handle on his thugs or eliminate them. His rise to power will of course need violent henchmen, but only if they are under his control. Still, it is getting Ouster a good and painful kicking, which he richly deserves, so I'm not particularly complaining about the current state of affairs.

There's no shortage of violent monsters in post ww1 Russia. Vlast just needs to learn how to recongise them, and control them on a leash. He's young and learning the limits of being physically imposing and Dominating. He has to learn how to dominate the minds of people, when he isn't in the room, or even in the same country.

Meanwhile, Ouster continues to get slapped with the real world and consequences of war, and talking to a hostile room. Vital stuff if he's going to survive Versaille, or the end of the war come to think.

For the other part I see the war continues to be good for David, I hope he enjoys his aerial commission back in the UK.

Oh, I expect it will have no end of frustration for him. It means staying in London, which means under the eye of the Palace and Establishment again. The air force doesn't exist yet, so no one is even dedicated to researching and funding planes yet. All his allies are in the navy, who have to use all their powers on the amphibious landing discussions and subsequent buildup.

BUT he's in a better place than OTL, got a decent, somewhat neutral family to turn or run to if he gets in trouble, and at some point, a hospital tour to do...
 
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The two chief younger protagonists find themselves in very different and contrasting personal circumstances, yet both going through a painful process of forging into what I presume they will become: the respective national leaders of Britain and Germany in the Second Innings.

Mmhm. In a lot of ways, Radcliffe and Ouster are similar, but their culture is fundamentally different in regards to how noblemen are 'supposed' to act and how they actually do, along with acceptable governance, war, etc. One being a naval commander and the other a cavalry officer is quite deliberate too.

Whilst we know Ouster has to take command eventually because of how dire things have become, it's still very much in the air as to whether Radcliffe will accept any kind of government role. He certainly doesn't want to at this point, and has far too much pull and wealth (eventually) to be drawn into anything by force. But there are already a few threads, any one of which being pulled could lead to him being drawn into things, willingly or not.

Perhaps Vlast too, leader of some kind of anarcho-radical, authoritarian, peasant based Russian state. The crucible is in evidence. Each even has a sidekick for the adventures to come: David (handy having a future king as a side-kick, so long as he doesn’t implode), Hans and the dreaded Comrade. Assuming they all survive that long

Survival is far from guaranteed in this war, but the side kicks are fun and happened quite naturally. Vlast currently, as you can read in the text, doesn't really have any kind of ideology behind him at the moment, other than the desire to change Russia, and perhaps take control of it or part of it. That will certainly change to some degree because, if he survives this, he's inevitably going to fall in with the socialists who need and lead a ton of bandit gangs and factions.
 
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So, had to clear my head and reread a bit (something I'm still doing), but I do feel my post left half of the answer out: the Americans were absolutely livid about the blockade. Livid. That was the straw that saw Wilson encourage the absolutely massive shipbuilding program that worried the UK: because in OTL, the British saw the actual fear that was waving at them from central Europe: a power that can truly become global at the drop of a hat: massive economy, continent-spanning, and in your case, angry. Sure, it takes awhile for a navy to become effective, but I'm assuming that there was something along the lines of the "happy time" for the USN in 1812 before they absolutely collapse. I don't know your butterflies about the SpAm War, and obviously, that's a bridge too far at this point, but as long as it's not the USN that was ineffective, I'd say that the USN has a long tradition of good service.
 
So, had to clear my head and reread a bit (something I'm still doing), but I do feel my post left half of the answer out: the Americans were absolutely livid about the blockade. Livid. That was the straw that saw Wilson encourage the absolutely massive shipbuilding program that worried the UK: because in OTL, the British saw the actual fear that was waving at them from central Europe: a power that can truly become global at the drop of a hat: massive economy, continent-spanning, and in your case, angry. Sure, it takes awhile for a navy to become effective, but I'm assuming that there was something along the lines of the "happy time" for the USN in 1812 before they absolutely collapse. I don't know your butterflies about the SpAm War, and obviously, that's a bridge too far at this point, but as long as it's not the USN that was ineffective, I'd say that the USN has a long tradition of good service.

Oh yeah, if the US get involved, it's either the british blockade or German U boats.

US Navy wise, they got wiped in 1812, spent the rest of the period before the civil war spatting with the British, had a nasty civil war as per OTL, then had to be bascially scrapped and started again as per OTL in the 70s to 80s.

They then lost their entire Pacific fleet, and all their Pacific bases, in the Spanish amercian war, but the Atlantic one did pretty well going after Mexico and the carribbean, before the Royal Navy showed up. Fought them pretty well too, but were outnumbered, even before the RN from the pacific showed up.

Dreadnought then makes all ships that did survive that war irrelevant, and now the US have spent the 00s recovering, rebuilding and refocusing on the atlantic and amercias. Still have the panama canal, and thus its design limitations, and pretty much nothing but the US and Amercias to protect.

It's not really missing a purpose despite this, because their purpose is obvious: be capable of matching the royal navy in home waters, and at least power projecting around the entirety of the two continents.

Plenty of experienced war vets and success stories, more so than the US army does.
 
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Dreadnought then makes all ships that did survive that war irrelevant, and now the US have spent the 00s recovering, rebuilding and refocusing on the atlantic and amercias. Still have the panama canal, and thus its design limitations, and pretty much nothing but the US and Amercias to protect.
It would be a pretty interesting reversal if the UK has bigger battleships in service and in construction, and bases the size of the Nicaragua Canal off of that. Would other countries perhaps have a financial stake in that canal?
 
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It would be a pretty interesting reversal if the UK has bigger battleships in service and in construction, and bases the size of the Nicaragua Canal off of that. Would other countries perhaps have a financial stake in that canal?
That is indeed interesting and I imagine after the very different Spanish-American war Britain would absolutely see the value of a quicker route between Pacific and Atlantic (and the threat of one if it was foreign controlled).

But to mix things up a bit more, what if is the newly rejuvenated Spain that steps in to help with the French effort gets into trouble? If anything they would be even keener on a rapid route between oceans and in denying such a thing to the Americans. The French concerns were apparently mostly financial, investors doubting they could make a return given the higher than expected construction costs. This would not be an issue for Spain as the project would be strategic and about it's value in a future conflict as well as keeping it closed for US Navy vessels.
 
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It would be a pretty interesting reversal if the UK has bigger battleships in service and in construction

I don't see why they wouldn't, esepcially given their current new battlecruiser designs are going to be the largest ships in the world once done (if they build them). The only limit the british have in regards to size is money and capacity to build and Dock them somewhere.

and bases the size of the Nicaragua Canal off of that.

I would expect any such canal to be wider, yes. Since the panama canal was built, and especially since Suez, ships have gotten a lot bigger, and the trend seems set to continue (to the present day, in fact).

Would other countries perhaps have a financial stake in that canal?

If they actually go for it post war? Almost certainly Mexico will, out of diplomatic necessity. The wider empire will join doubt see their wealthy investors pooling resources if they fancy a go, and despite upfront costs, it will be succesful 'eventually' so the City will probably be running the show finance wise if the government isn't.

Who else...well, very possibly the other large merchant navy nations who trust the british to have a similar hands off policy to shipping that they had in suez. So possibly Scandinavia and Denmark. And anyone who wants to thumb their noses at uncle sam, so very possibly, a lot of South and central amercian countries might try to send cash, even if they are dissuaded/make trouble elsewhere.

Really, the british backed with sufficient interest by Canada and Australia could probably do it themselves, but I would expect Mexico and at least a few others interested/participating too.

That is indeed interesting and I imagine after the very different Spanish-American war Britain would absolutely see the value of a quicker route between Pacific and Atlantic (and the threat of one if it was foreign controlled).

Well, it depends on post war finances, but given the British have had a mildly easier war, they could do it in the 20s. Possibly in time to see the effort completed for the crash of amercian markets, but we'll see.

They have genuinely good reasons to bother building their own canal, so I'm sure it'll at least be discussed.

But to mix things up a bit more, what if is the newly rejuvenated Spain that steps in to help

Mm. 'Newly rejuvenated'.

The Spanish empire still exists in the 90s and 00s, true, but I'm unsure if that is going to save them long term from economic and poltcial chaos at home. They may well have the confidence to burn some money helping the original French project but...

with the French effort gets into trouble?
The French concerns were apparently mostly financial, investors doubting they could make a return given the higher than expected construction costs. This would not be an issue for Spain as the project would be strategic and about it's value in a future conflict as well as keeping it closed for US Navy vessels.

I can't see the French succeeding in the 90s, even with Spanish assistance. Unless Spain massively over commits and bankrupts itself by 1900.

I currently have it down as the project was abandoned anyway, with the Americans picking it up when it became clear the british and Europeans had far larger concerns with German military and naval build up, to stop the Americans creating a new country and slicing the continents in half. Gives Mckinnly and Rosevelt a good shot of popularity for not only starting and compelting a massive and impressive project, but also getting one over the colonial empires in the process.
 
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All caught up! Great stuff, interesting to see where it all goes.
 
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All caught up! Great stuff, interesting to see where it all goes.

Ah, excellent, I believe you are the first to manage it for some time!

What do you think generally, and how do you see the UK and Germany as of the end of 1915?
 
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I currently have it down as the project was abandoned anyway, with the Americans picking it up when it became clear the british and Europeans had far larger concerns with German military and naval build up, to stop the Americans creating a new country and slicing the continents in half. Gives Mckinnly and Rosevelt a good shot of popularity for not only starting and compelting a massive and impressive project, but also getting one over the colonial empires in the process.
On the one hand this makes absolutely no sense given the vastly changed previous events. But on the other I have long since learnt that arguing with your deep seated love of historical determinism rarely ends satisfactorily.

Thus, meh.
 
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Who else...well, very possibly the other large merchant navy nations who trust the british to have a similar hands off policy to shipping that they had in suez. So possibly Scandinavia and Denmark. And anyone who wants to thumb their noses at uncle sam, so very possibly, a lot of South and central amercian countries might try to send cash, even if they are dissuaded/make trouble elsewhere.
The Dutch are pretty trustworthy to the Brits as well, and a more direct route between Suriname/the Antilles and Indonesia may be nice
I can't see the French succeeding in the 90s, even with Spanish assistance. Unless Spain massively over commits and bankrupts itself by 1900.
The state of the French empire also indicates that it's a less potent power compared to IRL
Really, the british backed with sufficient interest by Canada and Australia could probably do it themselves, but I would expect Mexico and at least a few others interested/participating too.
To use this to get back to something you said before, was the idea of making Canada, Australia, New Zealand etc. independent kingdoms with their own monarchs a actual idea about organising the Empire? And if it was, how prevalent was it? Been toying with these ideas for what may be a personal project of mine
 
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