Stellaris Dev Diary #313 - 3.9 ‘Caelum’ is Out, What’s Next?

[DeanTheDull]

We’re hitting an auspicious number next week, so we’re stocking up on bad math jokes and we’ll be talking about the state of various Custodian plans - as well as some of the things we’re considering investigating.

Don't hide behind others, Eladrin. We all know your predilections for punnery.

I, for one, won't believe the punnery a team effort unless I see a photo with a literal white board with puns written in different handwriting. Otherwise, it's all you.


()

 

[Eladrin]

Otherwise, it's all you.

It really is, to be honest. In the plantoid dev diary a few weeks ago only one wasn't mine. But this is a team effort so they get blame credit too.

 

[Calvax]

So glad we might get vassalisation trust thresholds! Other than reducing the sameness of games this should also cut down on the number of endless wars that come when one block is fully occupied by two others, but not 100% to either.

EDIT: I know the UX team is under capacity but to throw it out there; I’d love to be able to tell vassals from federation members from the galaxy map. Perhaps vassal empire emblems could have a smaller version of their overlord’s emblem in the top left.

 

[Panzerslothen]

This is a nice dev diary. I was happy to read it. Short, sweet, but filling me with hope and excitement for 3.9.2. Those little details about the Diplo/Trust changes, particularly the chance they'll be with us so soon, is great news and I'm sure will make a lot of players very pleased. So thanks to you, Alfray, and the rest of team for moving them forwards by so much! It is appreciated.

I'm really going to be looking forward to the DD in two weeks' from now.

It really is, to be honest. In the plantoid dev diary a few weeks ago only one wasn't mine. But this is a team effort so they get blame credit too.

Leaf the rest of the team out of it, Eladrin

[Sorry I had to]

 

[HMS Enterprize]

In terms of improvement to text/information. Can you improve how the info is displayed on the results of a war between other parties to be more explicit & clear.

Eg: X gains xyz planets/ststem from Y.

At the moment it just says attackers & some names. It’s probably just me but I find the current info hard to interpret usefully.

 

[Rafss]

Better relationship is an adequate tweak, thanks a lot!

Are there any plans to speed up federation leveling? I think going out of your way with traditions and such to build a federation is too hard and weak compared to gathering vassals, even with the trust changes, I wish federations were a little bit more rewarding, or more accessible for you to start one and for it to grow.

 

[Helicopter200]

Next DLC when?

 

[King Harkinian]

Very nice to see the "OR" effects in the prerequisites. Diplomacy has often felt too arbitrarily rigid in the past (Remember all the restrictions Rivalry used to have?) and it's good to have more dynamic diplomatic pathways, even as the need to add some restrictions to vassalisation arised.

 

[Imp0815]

Congrats on the Patch release!

The DLC additions are great and shows everyone how worth while it is to stay on-top of the PDX DLC game!

I'm really excited were we go with next patch. Maybe another Leader rework? Another Number rebalance of Weapons? - Or dare i say, Doomstack fix or even a Space Combat Rework after 7 years?

No matter what i'll be with you! ♥

 

[DrFranknfurter]

Vassal problems:
1. Happens instantly after first contact - Fixed by having trust requirements... hopefully
2. Happens with small imbalances in relative power - Not fixed... so all empires will still eventually become vassals.

How long until every empire is a vassal?
Around 40 years if you do nothing more than making an embassy.
12 Years if you also trade with them,
<3 years if you make every pact possible
Still instant like now if you're diplomatic and they really like you.

Spoiler: Trust math

50 Trust
0.1 Embassy trust gain
0.1 Research Pact trust gain
0.25 Commercial Pact trust gain
0.25 Migration Pact trust gain
0.5 Non-Aggression
0.75 Defensive Pact trust gain
x1.33 Direct Diplomacy tradition trust gain

Embassy (41 years)
Embassy + Direct Diplomacy (32 years)
Commercial + Embassy (12 years)
Commercial + Embassy + Direct Diplomacy (9 years)
Non-Aggression + Embassy (7 years)
Non-Aggression + Embassy + Direct Diplomacy (~5 years)
Defensive + Research/Commercial/Migration + Embassy (~3 years)
Defensive + Research/Commercial/Migration + Embassy + Direct Diplomacy (~2 years)

So, better.
But I hope vassal acceptance is adjusted so that "relative power" isn't quite as dominant, it's currently the most important number by a ridiculous amount and that's the cause of the domino effect triggering galaxy-wide vassal spam.

Other Vassal issues:
1. Diplomatic Vassals suggest contracts that would make them disloyal

Spoiler: Silly Vassals

Empires asking to be a vassal sometimes instantly break research, commercial and migration treaties. This happens because the contract terms they suggest put them at a negative starting loyalty, that puts them in a disloyal state that causes them to break all pacts, harm relations and refuse to accept any trade offer to increase loyalty... sometimes even planning for war almost instantly. Usually resolves if the loyalty gain is high enough, but it's still a bit silly for this situation to ever happen. Disloyal vassals should be more due to wars or changes in contracts, being disloyal because you have done exactly what they want is stupid.

Fixes:
1. Do not suggest a contract that would make them disloyal
2. Boost starting loyalty for suggested contracts
3. A grace period to let loyalty settle after diplomatically joining a new vassal contract

Really looking forward to Vassal fixes, and I'm sure it will be better even if it's only a partial fix.

 

[DeanTheDull]

Very nice to see the "OR" effects in the prerequisites. Diplomacy has often felt too arbitrarily rigid in the past (Remember all the restrictions Rivalry used to have?)

I... don't, actually. Or at least, I'm not sure what you're referring to.


Though I will note that Diplomacy may be less rigid, but no less powerful here. That trust/relations requirement requirement means diplomatic pacts, which means early-game influence and acceptance thresholds and waiting-around times that Diplomacy will be much, much better at getting.

I suspect on first reading that Diplomacy will be more powerful as a way to garner vassals and federation members (which will honestly only double-down on the vassal-federation synergies).

 

[Pale Blue]

For DLC suggestions it would be nice it it also showed the non available civics that are locked behind a DLC like it is the case for origins or traits.
Ideally the game would allow you to build an save with all existing options while highlighting in purple things that you dont own and then give you at the end of the empire creation the suggested DLCs that you would need to buy to be able to play the empire you just built.

 

[DeanTheDull]

Vassal problems:
1. Happens instantly after first contact - Fixed by having trust requirements... hopefully
2. Happens with small imbalances in relative power - Not fixed... so all empires will still eventually become vassals.

How long until every empire is a vassal?
Around 40 years if you do nothing more than making an embassy.
12 Years if you also trade with them,
<3 years if you make every pact possible
Still instant like now if you're diplomatic and they really like you.

Spoiler: Trust math

50 Trust
0.1 Embassy trust gain
0.1 Research Pact trust gain
0.25 Commercial Pact trust gain
0.25 Migration Pact trust gain
0.5 Non-Aggression
0.75 Defensive Pact trust gain
x1.33 Direct Diplomacy tradition trust gain

Embassy (41 years)
Embassy + Direct Diplomacy (32 years)
Commercial + Embassy (12 years)
Commercial + Embassy + Direct Diplomacy (9 years)
Non-Aggression + Embassy (7 years)
Non-Aggression + Embassy + Direct Diplomacy (~5 years)
Defensive + Research/Commercial/Migration + Embassy (~3 years)
Defensive + Research/Commercial/Migration + Embassy + Direct Diplomacy (~2 years)

So, better.

You'll need to extend that a bit since acceptance values differ, so trust gains start significantly slower at start (when only a few pacts are available) and grows faster as you hit the next thresholds for the next pacts.

IIRC this is something that varies by AI personality., so there is further variance.


I'm not sure the Excellent Relations enabler will matter that much in practice, since that's +750 relations. That's a function of both sides, but you're almost certain to get +50 trust (which is +100 of those relations) far, far sooner than the mutual +750.

 

[Rafss]

For DLC suggestions it would be nice it it also showed the non available civics that are locked behind a DLC like it is the case for origins or traits.
Ideally the game would allow you to build an save with all existing options while highlighting in purple things that you dont own and then give you at the end of the empire creation the suggested DLCs that you would need to buy to be able to play the empire you just built.

I know you want to help Paradox but this sounds like bait-n-switch typical of gachas xD

 

[Nevars]

I know you want to help Paradox but this sounds like bait-n-switch typical of gachas xD

I'm curious, how is that suggestion relate to gacha at all?

 

[Eladrin]

I'm not sure the Excellent Relations enabler will matter that much in practice, since that's +750 relations. That's a function of both sides, but you're almost certain to get +50 trust (which is +100 of those relations) far, far sooner than the mutual +750.

That part is more relevant for the lower tier agreements, like Commercial Pacts. (Numbers subject to change.)

 

[Anonim97]

That part is more relevant for the lower tier agreements, like Commercial Pacts. (Numbers subject to change.)

View attachment 1022586

Ngl it seems like really great change, especially if it comes with rebalancing the opinion modifiers. Can't wait for that!

 

[King Harkinian]

That part is more relevant for the lower tier agreements, like Commercial Pacts. (Numbers subject to change.)

View attachment 1022586

This, however, seems like a bad omen towards too many restrictions. There shouldn't be hard requirements like this for something harmless like commercial pacts. Acceptance modifiers already handle it in a more dynamic way.

I... don't, actually. Or at least, I'm not sure what you're referring to.

Rivalry used to only be possible if you shared a border with the opponent AND were equally powerful. The faction demand "Local Rivalry" still reflects this.

 

[DrFranknfurter]

You'll need to extend that a bit since acceptance values differ, so trust gains start significantly slower at start (when only a few pacts are available) and grows faster as you hit the next thresholds for the next pacts.

IIRC this is something that varies by AI personality., so there is further variance.


I'm not sure the Excellent Relations enabler will matter that much in practice, since that's +750 relations. That's a function of both sides, but you're almost certain to get +50 trust (which is +100 of those relations) far, far sooner than the mutual +750.

I tried to cover a few options just to get some basic idea of the timeframes using current numbers (trust growth and trust cap per pact could also be changed). If all pacts are going to be harder to make by also being gated behind trust values then it'll take longer than my initial estimates to subjugate an empire.

Some AI types will resistant to being diplo-vassals, but that depends on lots of factors (Ethics, civics, ascension path etc adding +/- 20ish opinion).

Spoiler: AI Personality types

Inward perfection empires with Xenophobic Isolationists personality.
Can only do embassy + non aggression, that sounds bad but they get:
+20 to non-aggression pacts and +100 to Non-aggression pacts from overwhelming power making what they will do easier.
22 years if you have to wait for 20 trust to form a non-aggression pact.
7 years to subjugate them if they like you and you're powerful enough to bully them into non-aggression quickly.

Honorbound Warriors could be hard to subjugate peacefully.
-100 to non-aggression pacts
-100 Pacifist Cowards
Getting your foot through the door will be tricky... lots of waiting with just an embassy before you can even start making pacts and they hate you for not trying to use force to subjugate them.
Embassy up to 20 trust (17 years)
Embassy + Migration + Research (they don't like commercial or non-aggression) another 6 years
23 years total? If they refuse Non-Aggression and Commercial pacts.
5 years if they have positive relations and jump into a defensive pacts to fight side by side against a mutual threat.

So fastest times with worst AI personality?
5-25 years to subjugate peacefully. Slower if you have to gradually upgrade from embassy to pacts at 20 trust, faster if positive relations let you form pacts sooner.

I'm hopeful that it will work. No obvious problems are jumping out at me.