Stellaris Dev Diaries #317 - Ad astra per aspera

[Orinsul]

Could anyone explain some gameplay bullet points of the differences between the games?
The DD and forum info all seems on the concept side rather than practical details?

 

[Noddster]

1. We're not whining.
2. Our criticism is legitimate and valid.
3. This is the Stellaris forum and we're Stellaris fans. Don't come into our house and tell us we're wrong.
4. If they did monthly, a lot would be lost - at least 75%, in fact.



We were not "warned". What happened was that they left a slightly cryptic sign-off note at the end with a Star Trek reference, but nothing outright said we weren't going to get a Stellaris Dev Diary. Being charitable, you could assume a phrase like that would include some Star Trek talk, but nobody expected it to be entirely Star Trek talk.

I expected it to be a diary about it?

Yes, it is whining. The amount of trolling and belly aching about this is insane. So many other games get little to no communication back from the Dev team. There have been journals mainly devoted to pictures of dogs, or of art designs (which I can only assume are also of little value).

Promoting a game that is based off the engine, to players already invested in that type of gameplay, seems like a pretty reasonable step.
#3 - Is the person you are saying this too a Stellaris Fan? So they also can't be wrong by that definition?

What a bunch of entitled people who are obviously far to invested in a game to get so upset about a dev diary. Go outside and touch some grass and get some sunshine.

 

[currylambchop]

There have been journals mainly devoted to pictures of dogs, or of art designs (which I can only assume are also of little value).

They aren’t just obvious money grabs though.

EDIT: it’s like an ad that replaces something that people liked. Of course people are mad

 

[Panzerslothen]

I expected it to be a diary about it?

Most of us don't have your incredible precognitive psychic powers, and can't see the future from a short vague verbal hint.

Yes, it is whining. The amount of trolling and belly aching about this is insane.

No, it is not. We're expressing disappointment and frustration. If that's "whining" to you then your perceptions are out of whack and we can't help you. There's not even a shred of 'trolling' about it - we've all been quite open.

So many other games get little to no communication back from the Dev team.

Irrelevant.

There have been journals mainly devoted to pictures of dogs, or of art designs (which I can only assume are also of little value).

Yes, indeed they have (been of little value). But they have, at least, been what we expected and broadly wanted. And they've been about Stellaris.

Promoting a game that is based off the engine, to players already invested in that type of gameplay, seems like a pretty reasonable step.

It's not an unreasonable step - but it isn't a reasonable one either, and neither is that the point. This is a time where there are big things in the works - 3.9.3 and the Vassalisation changes, or 3.10, the Leader rework, or the next DLC offering. We really wanna hear about that stuff. Instead we get Star Trek. If Ruk had given us even some substance about Stellaris, I'm sure that most of us would mostly have accepted the majority of the DD being about ST:I. But that's not what happened.

Do you understand? The problem isn't really that we've got Star Trek in our Stellaris Dev Diary. It's that we haven't got any Stellaris in our Stellaris Dev Diary.

#3 - Is the person you are saying this too a Stellaris Fan? So they also can't be wrong by that definition?

Well given he has a grand total of seven comments, including the one I replied to, under that account addressing Stellaris in any way. Before he needlessly got all up in my face, his last post was over four years ago. That doesn't prove he isn't a Stellaris fan, but it sure doesn't evidence him being one. He, like you, is being deliberately acerbic and irritating about it.

What a bunch of entitled people who are obviously far to invested in a game to get so upset about a dev diary.

Yeah, we're entitled to find out more about the game we have paid for, continue to pay for, on the forum dedicated to the game hosted by the company which makes the game. Yeah, we're entitled to say something about it. I mean, how else is the company going to know? "Entitled" isn't an insult, you know, despite what the internet might have you thinking.
The word you're looking for is 'annoyed', by the way - not 'upset'.

Go outside and touch some grass and get some sunshine.

You first.

 

[Fulgrymm]

Pretty great game, enjoying it a lot so far.

 

[Foxosaur]

Most of us don't have your incredible precognitive psychic powers, and can't see the future from a short vague verbal hint.



No, it is not. We're expressing disappointment and frustration. If that's "whining" to you then your perceptions are out of whack and we can't help you. There's not even a shred of 'trolling' about it - we've all been quite open.



Irrelevant.



Yes, indeed they have (been of little value). But they have, at least, been what we expected and broadly wanted. And they've been about Stellaris.



It's not an unreasonable step - but it isn't a reasonable one either, and neither is that the point. This is a time where there are big things in the works - 3.9.3 and the Vassalisation changes, or 3.10, the Leader rework, or the next DLC offering. We really wanna hear about that stuff. Instead we get Star Trek. If Ruk had given us even some substance about Stellaris, I'm sure that most of us would mostly have accepted the majority of the DD being about ST:I. But that's not what happened.

Do you understand? The problem isn't really that we've got Star Trek in our Stellaris Dev Diary. It's that we haven't got any Stellaris in our Stellaris Dev Diary.



Well given he has a grand total of seven comments, including the one I replied to, under that account addressing Stellaris in any way. Before he needlessly got all up in my face, his last post was over four years ago. That doesn't prove he isn't a Stellaris fan, but it sure doesn't evidence him being one. He, like you, is being deliberately acerbic and irritating about it.



Yeah, we're entitled to find out more about the game we have paid for, continue to pay for, on the forum dedicated to the game hosted by the company which makes the game. Yeah, we're entitled to say something about it. I mean, how else is the company going to know? "Entitled" isn't an insult, you know, despite what the internet might have you thinking.
The word you're looking for is 'annoyed', by the way - not 'upset'.



You first.

Personally, I think part of the distaste that hasn't been spoken about yet is - Star Trek Infinite's first dev diary was a month ago, their YouTube videos don't even go back close to that. In my world, albeit likely out of date, that's no time to get build up excitement and to develop an actual fan base or following. So whilst leaching off of a parent games community is going to be ok generally to some, throwing out a dev diary onto its community is going to be "divisive" and "grabby" to a few too.



I just hope there is the commitment and will to at least update the game for 12 months so you can attempt to develop that following on your own merit, that from all intents and purposes hasn't been done, that I can see, at all. But of course, congratulations must be given on getting the rights to use names and characters from Star Trek in the first place (probably reflected in the price tag).

 

[WoodenP]

I expected it to be a diary about it?

Yes, it is whining. The amount of trolling and belly aching about this is insane. So many other games get little to no communication back from the Dev team. There have been journals mainly devoted to pictures of dogs, or of art designs (which I can only assume are also of little value).

Promoting a game that is based off the engine, to players already invested in that type of gameplay, seems like a pretty reasonable step.
#3 - Is the person you are saying this too a Stellaris Fan? So they also can't be wrong by that definition?

What a bunch of entitled people who are obviously far to invested in a game to get so upset about a dev diary. Go outside and touch some grass and get some sunshine.

Yeah this conversation is insane lol. The amount of games I play that are lucky to get communication every quarter is already limited and what I'd consider a privileged few. Stellaris gets damn weekly(!) updates! Of course it doesn't matter that a single one is dedicated to a tangential project. People whining about this (yes, it's whining) are properly entitled. No other word for it.

 

[Panzerslothen]

You can tag me and come at me directly, yknow, Wooden. You don't need to alude.

Yeah this conversation is insane lol. (yes, it's whining)

No, itsn't.

Hell, why don't we take a look at what the actual commenters you're talking about have actually written, and analyse their language use, HMMMM?

• How about this post by SectorsAreOK - absolutely fine and fair comment saying the devs could have just made a special post.
• Triscopic says he's excited about ST:I, having pre-ordered it, but thought this DD could and in his view, should have had Stellaris content.
• Twelve words from Perseus saying merely that he was "sad and disappointed".
• -Marauder- congratulates the Devs on the release, but asks - ASKS! - why this had to take from a Stellaris DD.
• Clipped and to-the-point disappointment from SS Boss.
• Orphalesion says he "would have preferred" separate Stellaris DDs and ST:I ads. "Preferred", not up-in-arms, not cursing, not flying off the handle.
• Rafass asks nicely for just "a little teaser" of Stellaris content
• And last and least is my own post, where I'm fair to the Devs, congratulate them on the release, and give ST:I some praise - while wishing we had more Stellaris content.

None of these comments are "belly aching" by "giant babies". This is not, in any way, at all, "whining", by any fair and impartial interpretation of the word. This is all calm, reasonable, and rational expression of sentiment, based on wishes and evidence. In other words, feedback. And each of us have good reason to give it. It's all been expressed in moderation and good faith.

The amount of games I play that are lucky to get communication every quarter is already limited and what I'd consider a privileged few. Stellaris gets damn weekly(!) updates!

Irrelevant - that's those games, this isn't. Stellaris gets weekly updates. We like these updates. We want these updates. We're talking about these updates.

Of course it doesn't matter that a single one is dedicated to a tangential project.

Yeah... it does. To us. I love how you've completely glossed over the point I made not three replies up, by the way:
"If Ruk had given us even some substance about Stellaris, I'm sure that most of us would mostly have accepted the majority of the DD being about ST:I. But that's not what happened.... the problem isn't really that we've got Star Trek in our Stellaris Dev Diary. It's that we haven't got any Stellaris in our Stellaris Dev Diary."

People whining about this are properly entitled. No other word for it.

A terrible word which doesn't even fit the discussion.

At this point "whining" talk is just a malicious smear. Ironically enough it's becoming trolling in its own right. Trolling, by the way, being against the forum code of conduct.

Not every expression of a feeling or an opinion is a "whine". NONE of the comments I've linked to are.

 

[Tannhäuser Cake]

These personal rants going back and forth need to stop, now.

 

[SeraphAscending]

I won't block you from buying it, but when an internal review starts with "I don't know anything about Star Trek" I am usually in for a negative review. A lot of the good feels from this game is how it resonates with existing knowledge, in the same way that say, Crusader Kings, or HoI does. You know the factions, you understand the conflicts and when events happen it hits harder.


The first time I understood that Infinite was special, was during a pre-alpha build, where we had some basic systems up and running (warp, some ship models, some events) and I was tracking along and saw the message that Bajor had invaded Qo'nos. This hit me in a way that no event popup in Stellaris had ever done, and I knew we had struck gold.

In a internal preview, I read the line that they were playing normally, doing events, clearing notifications, until a message saying "Admiral Picard has died at the age of 103" and it was at this point they paused the game and took a deep breath.

These moments are the real reason the game resonates, and I worry that if you don't have any familiarity, the game might feel hollow.

I know my marketing manager will hate me for saying this, but target audience is Trekkies. We put in a good bit of work to streamline the game, but Trek knowledge was something we expected everyone to have on game start.

This is a really trust-inspiring comment. (Tell your marketing manager that)
To me, personally, a seller openly admitting that their product might not be the right thing for the customer inquiring is a major trustbringer. I am a lot more likely to believe that what you are saying is the truth, when i am convinced you are not just throwing marketing-beneficial stuff out there.

This is exactly why i love Stellaris' community communication as well as @Eladrin 's admittance of mistakes or shortcomings of the game.
It inspires confidence that it's not just a product, but something its creators care about and are willing to examine critically. Especially for long-term supported games as these, this level of trust is incredibly valuable.

When i saw the first glimpse of Star Trek: Infinite, it mostly felt like a slimmed, reskin of Stellaris and i was skeptical of whether i would even bother looking into it more. But the more dev diaries you post and show what makes your game unique and interesting, the more i am inclined to buy it.
Your above comment inspiring a lot of trust regarding all previous communications is a big selling point to me personally.

Thank you for your honesty.

 

[currylambchop]

The amount of games I play that are lucky to get communication every quarter is already limited and what I'd consider a privileged few.

To be honest I'd have preferred no update this week to getting an ad.

Also, most of the games around don't have dev communication updates every week, but they have actual game updates every 2 weeks or every month instead. The dev diaries are only really compensating for the slow rate of updates relative to mainstream games.

 

[Pete0714]

Okay now do Star Wars.

Disney probably won't work with Paradox.

 

[Kranakhan]

Three reasons:
1) I am the Producer for Stellaris, I throw my weight around, I do what I want.
2) I am the Producer for Stellaris, I throw my weight around, I do what I want.
3) I am the Producer for Stellaris, I throw my weight around, I do what I want.

My wife was banned from this forum for promoting her Mod Stellaris here. I wanted to thank you for rejoiceing the day, we almost fell from the chair for laughing out loud, all fatigue went after our workday.

However, I am also a Trekkie, thanks for creating this.

 

[goldennick94]

Throwing my two cents in because I've been watching the dev diary forum threads for a while now.

I do think there is a legitimate problem in these threads where subset of the fanbase tends to get irrationally angry and offensive at any new thing that comes out. It's okay to not like things, it's okay to think there are issues that need to be addressed but there's a certain form of conduct going about it that's appropriate. And I think several of these people simply don't act in an appropriate way. And the issue is they don't understand that their behavior is considered offensive and disrespectful.

When you throw lines like this:

It's pretty clear this was probably a decision made by bean counters who wanted to advertise the new game as widely as possible and figured Stellaris nerds would show up to dev diary.

That to me undermines any point that you've had. This doesn't seem like a concerned fan. This seems like someone who is paranoid and has personal issues that need to be worked out and automatically defaults to thinking that a game release that people have put actual time and effort into making is some part of a conspiracy.

And there is always some group of 5-15 people that are like this on every single new thing. It may not be the same people, but it's a repeated behavior that's happened somewhat consistently. There were the people who didn't like that they were trying to improve vassals for Overlord. There were people who thought the entire first contact dlc was shallow and devoid of content. There were people who thought the new leader system in galactic paragons "ruined everything".

And sometimes in their conspiratorial paranoid and echo chamber way of thinking they occasionally have an excellent point. Overlord had some real buggy issues when it released. Same with First Contact. Galactic Paragons was really tight on those leader penalties.

But it's less what is being said, and how it's being said and the manner of acting that is the primary issue I believe. Some of these people do respond in a very childish and immature way or they'll mob downvote comments that they don't agree with with the laugh emoji or put clown awards on steam reviews for being positive. And that I think is what several members of the community truly have an issue with.

There's a procedure for civil discourse that I feel has been lost on some of these people. You can disagree but being inflammatory just makes you look bad and makes people want to argue back with you. I don't want to assume these people are all trolls but it's an issue regardless.

 

[currylambchop]

That to me undermines any point that you've had. This doesn't seem like a concerned fan. This seems like someone who is paranoid and has personal issues that need to be worked out and automatically defaults to thinking that a game release that people have put actual time and effort into making is some part of a conspiracy.

Seems more like someone who is suspicious of paradox always trying to make profit at the price of the consumer experience tbh.

 

[goldennick94]

Seems more like someone who is suspicious of paradox always trying to make profit at the price of the consumer experience tbh.

I understand that line of thinking is popular these days given what's going on in the world, but it's faulty reasoning to automatically assume that *every* single company in the world is doing that.

If you're going to say something like that, you have to actually look and compare and think to yourself: "What makes these things specifically bad? And is this company different from the other companies that do these bad things?"

No company is perfect, there will always be issues.

However, based on how Paradox has acted in the past, I would say they do a reasonable job and well above the standard of many other video game companies to try and remediate issues.

When there was systemic issues in their workplace, they tried to resolve it with a third-party and address the issues. They didn't just sweep it under the rug, pretend it didn't happen even when it got to the point that somebody commits suicide and your entire worker population is going on strike and the entire c-suite gave tone-deaf response to their workers.

When people had an issue with the price changes of DLC, the company remediated that by giving advance notice of future price changes. They didn't just change it out of the blue and let people get angry and do nothing about it because they know people are going to pay for it regardless.

When Stellaris had issues from the backlog of technical debt and other stuff that naturally builds up in a large long-term software project like this, they didn't just leave them there to rot. Unlike nearly every single other video game company I can think of, they formed a team to address those issues. The custodians. The custodians announcement was considered almost borderline revolutionary as a concept for the video game industry.

So I don't think it's fair to automatically assume that paradox is trying to profit at the expense of the consumer experience because if they were, they would just do what every other company does. There are actual steps being made to try and avoid issues. It's not perfect but nothing is. It's way better than the average.

 

[currylambchop]

I understand that line of thinking is popular these days given what's going on in the world, but it's faulty reasoning to automatically assume that *every* single company in the world is doing that.

What do you think the purpose of a corporation is to do? It is to make money.

So I don't think it's fair to automatically assume that paradox is trying to profit at the expense of the consumer experience because if they were, they would just do what every other company does. There are actual steps being made to try and avoid issues. It's not perfect but nothing is. It's way better than the average.

I mean, their QA hasn't really gotten better and its been a significant problem especially in Stellaris.

 

[Foxosaur]

I understand that line of thinking is popular these days given what's going on in the world, but it's faulty reasoning to automatically assume that *every* single company in the world is doing that.

If you're going to say something like that, you have to actually look and compare and think to yourself: "What makes these things specifically bad? And is this company different from the other companies that do these bad things?"

No company is perfect, there will always be issues.

However, based on how Paradox has acted in the past, I would say they do a reasonable job and well above the standard of many other video game companies to try and remediate issues.

When there was systemic issues in their workplace, they tried to resolve it with a third-party and address the issues. They didn't just sweep it under the rug, pretend it didn't happen even when it got to the point that somebody commits suicide and your entire worker population is going on strike and the entire c-suite gave tone-deaf response to their workers.

When people had an issue with the price changes of DLC, the company remediated that by giving advance notice of future price changes. They didn't just change it out of the blue and let people get angry and do nothing about it because they know people are going to pay for it regardless.

When Stellaris had issues from the backlog of technical debt and other stuff that naturally builds up in a large long-term software project like this, they didn't just leave them there to rot. Unlike nearly every single other video game company I can think of, they formed a team to address those issues. The custodians. The custodians announcement was considered almost borderline revolutionary as a concept for the video game industry.

So I don't think it's fair to automatically assume that paradox is trying to profit at the expense of the consumer experience because if they were, they would just do what every other company does. There are actual steps being made to try and avoid issues. It's not perfect but nothing is. It's way better than the average, we all have different standards and boundaries that we expect.

I don't think that line you quoted is in anyway something that then justifies you to then throwing in something so personal as "they have personal issues". It's true, people, businesses make decisions based on numbers and how to make those numbers better. The lengths of which they go to, to then improve them, can cross boundaries and "ethics".

And that's all it is, boundaries and ethics. In this community the age range and maturity is very wide too, we all have different expectations and standards.

 

[goldennick94]

What do you think the purpose of a corporation is to do? It is to make money.

See, when you say things like that without considering the rest of what I said, you're really just re-affirming what I mean by some people having conspiratorial and paranoid views.

You seem to automatically assume, indirectly, that every company is trying to make money via the worst means possible. Yes, they are a company and that means they have to make money. But, it doesn't necessarily mean they have to do it in the worst way possible. And the current history of what they have done seems to indicate that they want to be better about it. As I've stated, it's not perfect and there are issues. And you have to let people/companies some latitude in making mistakes, otherwise the only opinion left is to assume everyone is terrible and every company is bad. And that seems like a really hard stance to live with because you have to assume everyone is out to get you. Which is textbook definition of paranoid.

I mean, their QA hasn't really gotten better and its been a significant problem especially in Stellaris.

The game is really old and it's incredibly massive. Any software project of a certain scale and time length will have lots of bugs.
Linux is ancient but it has really bad bugs that can cause crippling problems.
Windows is old and has really bad bugs that sometimes make basic things like printers working or bluetooth or the right-click context menu nonfunctional.
Most games have bugs. The older they are, the worse it gets because there is just so much text/code to sift through and so many edge cases like how this civic responds to this event, or how x works in y with z going on. There are at least a billion potential scenarios that could happen in a game of Stellaris, and it's difficult to make sure everything works properly.

I do my part to try to help by submitting bug reports.
People working on Linux do their part by sending bug reports.
Issues on windows and other games are resolved by people sending bug report.

Software complexity can easily go past the realm of what a QA team of any size or efficiency can reasonably handle. And a good community will come together to assist so that other people don't have to deal with it.

 

[GnoSIS]

I'm sorry to be the one to tell you, but the OP is off topic. These are the stellaris main news forums.

Please take your total conversion commercial mod and post about it either in it's own page or at least under "User Mods".

Still waiting on the 13th of October DD post...

(it's up to the reader to determine is this post is sarcastic or not! I think it works both ways, but If the powers that be would ban me for their own selfish reasons, then I say that it's sarcastic)