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Developer Diary | Nations

Hello, everyone! Ian Fischer of C Prompt Games here again, this time with our third Developer Diary for Millennia. Today we’re going to talk about Nations.

Nation is something of a catch-all for everything controlled by any distinct “player” in the game. Millennia makes you the guiding spirit of a people, in charge of leading them through 10,000 years of human history -- the thing you lead and build with your decisions during the game is your Nation.

Regions and Vassals

Rob went over some basics of Regions and Vassals in our last Developer Diary,

Regions define a big chunk of your Nation. They have territory and population, provide places for Improvements and Capital Buildings to be built, and they are the primary source of the Goods and resources that power everything you do.

Vassals are similar to Regions, but they are not directly controlled. Vassals grow on their own, expand borders, build buildings, and so on. They also pay a portion of their income to their Nation, which can make them quite valuable.

When you conquer an enemy Capital or use a Settler, you gain a new Vassal. Your Vassals have an Integration level, which describes how much the people there feel like part of your Nation. Vassals you gain by using a Settler need less Integration than Vassals you acquire after your army takes control of the place by force, but Integration in either will slowly increase over time (and a power in the Diplomacy Domain can be used to speed this up).
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If you want the Vassal to be a full Region, one that you control directly, you only need to worry about Integration – once you have 100 Integration, you can make the Vassal a Region. However, Vassals also have a Prosperity rating. If you plan to keep a Vassal as a Vassal, you might want to work to increase its Prosperity, as this will make it more productive and increase the value of what it contributes each turn.

As Nations grow larger, they require more to maintain cohesion. Each Region in your Nation increases the amount of Culture “spent” to keep it together and also increases the amount of Unrest across the Nation. Hence, depending on your strategy and how you have guided your Nation, you probably want a mix between a number of Regions and a number of Vassals.

Minor Nations

Another way you might add a Vassal to your Nation is through a Minor Nation.
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Minor Nations are larger protected settlements that occupy spaces in the world from the start of a game. They do claim territory, but unlike many borders, anyone can move into and through a Minor Nation’s space.

If you have a strong enough military, you can attack and conquer a Minor, which will make it a Vassal in your Nation. Alternatively, you might go the diplomatic route and send an Envoy to convince the Minor to join willingly.

Governments

One factor that can have a substantial impact on the number of Regions and Vassals best for a Nation is Government. All Nations have a Government, starting with Tribal. In Ages 3, 5, and 8, other options become available.

Structurally, Governments are similar to National Spirits – they provide access to a set of Ideals that can be unlocked using Government Domain Points. Unlike National Spirits, they do not stack. You only have one Government at a time and taking a new one replaces the old one.

Governments provide a specific Government Building and also define the baseline value of a Capital City. The Capital of a Nation with the Tribal Government, for example, generates 2 Culture per turn (among other things). As a Democratic Republic, the same Capital City would provide 4 Culture per turn.
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Governments are designed to guide and support different strategies. As mentioned above, some Nations will benefit more from having a lot of Vassals and a small number of Regions, whereas for others the opposite is true. Governments have a heavy hand in that decision, either by taking a Government that suits your direction so far, or taking a Government and playing to its strengths.

If you research a Government into its highest tier, you can “Reform” it, which provides additional Innovation and Culture. Once your current Government is reformed, the ability to select a new form of government via a Peaceful Revolution (a Culture Power) is also unlocked.

You can still adopt a new Government if you have not Reformed your current one, but it must be through Violent Revolution in this case. Violent Revolutions come with a non-trivial amount of Chaos, so it is generally better to avoid this route unless you feel you must transition to a new Government right away.

During later Ages, Governments take on additional importance through Faction. With Faction, your choice of Government encourages your Nation to favor other Nations with the same Government (and to dislike those with different Governments). At this point, Nations also start competing to advance their Faction (which provides bonuses for all members of the Faction) and to lead their Factions (which provides bonuses for the leader).

(The Space Race, which generally dominates Age 8, provides considerable Faction bonuses, especially for the Nation that manages a moon landing.)
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Diplomatic Relationships

Once they have made contact, Nations have diplomatic standing with one another. There are five diplomatic states: War, Hostilities, Peace, Open Borders, and Alliance. Nations begin “At Peace” with one another and the simplest form of diplomacy is available immediately – you can propose improving your diplomatic state (for example, suggesting going from Peace to Open Borders) or you can declare a move in the other direction (for example, declaring that you’re changing from At Peace to Hostilities).

More sophisticated diplomatic options are available if you deploy an Envoy at another Nation. With an Envoy in place, you gain a new set of actions that allow you to adjust your relationship in more specific ways (…like extorting money from weaker neighbors).
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A final stage here is achieved if you can afford and get agreement for opening an Embassy. Like the Envoy, an Embassy opens up a new set of diplomatic options. In this case, it allows you to establish Treaties, which reward both sides with ongoing resources.

Barbarians

Barbarians and their ilk can be thought of as a special kind of “Nation” but they aren’t a true Nation in most respects.

In early Ages, Barbarians are a bit of danger in the unknown world. They’re out looking for things to fight or burn down, so you need to take some precautions. They do not expand in the same way that other Nations do, but they will multiply and establish new camps if they are not dealt with.

Barbarians advance and become more dangerous with time (and on occasion Barbarian Warlords make an appearance), but their objectives remain mostly the same. There are different hostile groups that operate in a manner similar to the Barbarians but which are unique to the different Variant, Crisis, and Victory Ages. Each of these have slightly different priorities, such as razing improvements, destroying towns, getting into fights with your units, or stealing your cattle. In the Age of Revolution for example, Rebels are a new Barbarian-like threat – if not managed, they can cause Regions to declare independence and break away from a Nation (forming new “splinter” Nations).


Thanks!

We hope you have enjoyed this look into some of the Nation-related systems of Millennia. We’ll be back on November 2nd to talk about War. If you like what you have seen, please wishlist us!
 
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All of that sounds very interesting and quite different from their Civ competitor. Regions VS cities is a big, major thing, for starters, and so is the need for integrating your settlements.

Also, it seems that governments will come with quite defined bonuses, going away from the "modular government" approach of Stellaris and the latter Civ installments (civics and all that jazz).

Hopefully, the map won't be a mostly blank, unpopulated area. Any land worth having was pretty quickly claimed and settlement should require military force to subdue or eject the native residents while generating resistance. Likewise, I'm hoping the "Hostilities" diplomatic status will permit and encourage cross-border raids, skirmishes, and piracy which don't just encourage defenses like castles, but make pre-industrialized warfare profitable. I think other PDS titles like EU4 and Vicky3 do much better job than Civ in representing the security dilemma that drove historical expansion, dominance and coalitions, and I hope Millennia can improve on Civ in that regard.
It would seem to me that "Minor nations" will simulate that "the map is empty but not really" reality quite well, whereas "hostilities" will make "minor wars" viable.

I just think that the more realistic approach would be for the default initial state of diplomacy to be "hostilities" rather than peace. I mean, our species have been stuck in endemic warfare only until very, very recently. And as you said, the early empire expansion was mainly driven by the fact that border regions were extremely porous and vulnerable.
 
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Regions VS cities is a big, major thing, for starters,
Huh, to me their concepts sound similar enough to say that they're the same in all but name.

What differs a Region in Millenia from a City in Civ (esp. when talking about Civ 5, 6 or BE)?

By saying this I don't want to imply that this is a bad thing, though.
 
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The default relationship is "peace", which doesn't permit movement through the other Nation's territory. An exception there -- certain units, like the Envoy, can cross borders (they can also be "attacked" while at peace, which send them back home).

The "hostile" relationship allows you to attack Units in neutral territory.

You can convert a Vassal you own into a Region. It needs to be fully integrated (which you can let happen naturally over time or speed up with a Diplomacy Domain Power) and you need to have the Government Domain to afford it.

So the difference between 'war' and 'hostilities' is that the former allows attacks within enemy territory, while the latter doesn't? Anything else?

Also (not sure if this has been answered already, but still) how does the nation creation at the start of the game work? Are you completely free to create your own flag (looking at the screenshots, they seem to consist of only a single background colour and a symbol) and name at the start of the game? And what other options for customisation are available (eg. building/unit/leader styles and certain gameplay bonuses)? And can you edit non-player factions?

I'm quite enthusiastic about this game; my dream is a civ game with Stellaris levels of faction customisation! Though this doesn't seem to reach that, it does appear to at least allow for more than Civilization has done since Civ V. I can't be the only one looking for a nation roleplaying game :p
 
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It would seem to me that "Minor nations" will simulate that "the map is empty but not really" reality quite well, whereas "hostilities" will make "minor wars" viable.

The most information this Dev Diary gives is that minor nations are "protected settlements" and anyone can trespass on the borders, which sounds a lot like Civ5. The only major difference would be it seems like Millennia will allow any player to diplomatically vasselize minors, while only one nation could do that in Civ5. If future Dev Diaries went more in depth on these systems it would be a lot more helpful in distinguishing what will make this title unique.
 
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I am sure you will do your best in regard to AI but even so, I have no doubt that i will want to redevelop part of my vassals territory when i make it fully my own. Are there improvements that i can never change and have to live with or can I always rebuild stuff inside my borders?
 
Huh, to me their concepts sound similar enough to say that they're the same in all but name.

What differs a Region in Millenia from a City in Civ (esp. when talking about Civ 5, 6 or BE)?

By saying this I don't want to imply that this is a bad thing, though.
I think that the main difference lies in the fact that you need to integrate regions, even the ones built by your own settlers. This simulates very well the de-centralized nature of early governments and makes for a far more "organic" nation-building, or at least this is what I hope.

The most information this Dev Diary gives is that minor nations are "protected settlements" and anyone can trespass on the borders, which sounds a lot like Civ5. The only major difference would be it seems like Millennia will allow any player to diplomatically vasselize minors, while only one nation could do that in Civ5. If future Dev Diaries went more in depth on these systems it would be a lot more helpful in distinguishing what will make this title unique.
They make it sound like Civ city-states with an integration twist. I do now wonder, however, if they will be powerful and numerous enough to avoid a "terra nula" type of map.
 
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I think that the main difference lies in the fact that you need to integrate regions, even the ones built by your own settlers. This simulates very well the de-centralized nature of early governments and makes for a far more "organic" nation-building, or at least this is what I hope.
Ok, fair. In that case I was maybe just confused by your choice of words as you had written:
Regions VS cities is a big, major thing, for starters, and so is the need for integrating your settlements.
Whereas I saw the "and" as a separation of concepts you find intriguing (and I would agree to the latter part and your most recent explanation) it seems that you didn't see them that distinct. At least that's the reason why I initially only quoted the part *before* the "and".
:)
 
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Based on just this DD:

I like the implicit focus on having a nation being a group of people under a banner rather than a somehow homogenous organization.
That said.
I wonder how vassals are going to 'work'. Currently, all mentions of them are that they operate just like the player. War aside (since that's the next DD) does that mean they're able to make other vassals too?
...Actually, scratch that. Vassals should be able to expand and make vassal vassals. And vassal vassals should make vassal vassal vassals.

Within the context of regions versus vassals, I'm not clear on what the advantage is either way within the context of this game, and thus I'm falling back on the old belief that vassals = less overhead in exchange of AI incompetence. Which...given the game seems to focus on the existence of vassals as a majority of the map, is probably not intended.

Still, looking forward to the next DD to get a better sense of how vassal swarm works with two nations at war. I hope defections are on the table.
 
Ok, fair. In that case I was maybe just confused by your choice of words as you had written:

Whereas I saw the "and" as a separation of concepts you find intriguing (and I would agree to the latter part and your most recent explanation) it seems that you didn't see them that distinct. At least that's the reason why I initially only quoted the part *before* the "and".
:)

That one is on me ^^U

"I love writing in Paradox forums because I geek out while it helps me to improve my English!"

*writes a post with confusing, incoherent phrasal structure*

Welp.
 
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Because that is the spirit of the age, not the people. A zeitgeist is a global phenomenon, not a nationalistic identity.
You're right, but age is a relative concept, there are national ages and global ages. So you can expand the definition and say that there are national zeitgeits and the global zeitgeist.
 
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"guiding spirit of a people"

Why not just call it Zeitgeist?
I mean, telling your player they are a "zeitgeist" is a lot less obvious than their current wording. Also, the whole idea of a zeitgeist is that it is limited to some period of time. meanwhile the "guiding spirit" here is the player who usually will be the same player throughout the game.
 
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I mean, telling your player they are a "zeitgeist" is a lot less obvious than their current wording. Also, the whole idea of a zeitgeist is that it is limited to some period of time. meanwhile the "guiding spirit" here is the player who usually will be the same player throughout the game.
I agree, but I think it would be cooler to call it a zeitgeist and explain the meaning in the game's encyclopedia. About the player being the same, that's not a problem, people and nations (national spirits) change over time without ceasing to be the same.
 
I agree, but I think it would be cooler to call it a zeitgeist and explain the meaning in the game's encyclopedia.
If you need to explain it it's a bad choice. "Guiding spirit" is self-explanatory.
 
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I agree, but I think it would be cooler to call it a zeitgeist and explain the meaning in the game's encyclopedia. About the player being the same, that's not a problem, people and nations (national spirits) change over time without ceasing to be the same.
I mean this is just a quick description in a dev diary. Neither "guiding spirit" nor "zeitgeist" will likely be named in the game. Why would it be explained in the encyclopedia?
 
If you need to explain it it's a bad choice. "Guiding spirit" is self-explanatory.
Not always. Too many long, self-explanatory terms can make a game seem stupid (I'm not saying that's the case with this game). For example, you can call something an "engine powered by very small particles" or simply a "quantum engine".
 
The diary says that Regions can split from their Nations in certain circumstances. I do hope the daughter Nations will be thematically linked to the mother. E.g. Romans will spawn French or Spanish, not Aztecs.

The only reason I haven't bought Humankind after playing their Beta is that I couldn't stand the arbitrary cultures assigned by their ages, so Kyoto became an Aztec city then an Egyptian one or whatever.

I don't think this would be enormously difficult to code. You could add a hidden "cultural group" property to each Nation template and then spawned Nations would be from the same Cultural Group if possible. We won't all agree about which Nation goes in which Group (e.g. should the British be in the Germanic group or the Roman group?), but we can exclude the undesirable outcomes (e.g. the British are definitely not going to be in the Mesoamerican group).

If the Nation templates are C++ objects then you might be able to do more complicated things with multiple inheritance to get overlapping groups, but that's not necessary.
 
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The only reason I haven't bought Humankind after playing their Beta is that I couldn't stand the arbitrary cultures assigned by their ages, so Kyoto became an Aztec city then an Egyptian one or whatever.
This seems like a silly reason to not get Humankind since the cultures serve a very different purpose in that game and aren't just cosmetic names like they basically are in Millennia.
 
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