Stellaris Dev Diary #318 - Announcing Astral Planes

[juanigas]

If i buy this, will we get a military rework in 3.11?

i hope they introduce logistics by system. this way they avoid that everyone sends all their fleets in a pile. and the wars will be more dynamic with maneuvers and so on. and also that there will be fewer but more powerful ships because my computer is too old to show a thousand ships.

 

[Rafss]

psionic shields are kinda bad anyways, they eat insane amounts of energy and even the fallen empire's darkmatter reactor can't properly fuel them
while the psionic combat computer is "only" on par with the sentient one
and cloaking? most of us don't actively use that anyways XD

I mean, everyone can get jump drives and shroud avatars are just big void clouds

I see you are having lots of fun shutting down others asking for a Shroud Tech Path because you think those techs are weak. Well I think these posts are rather obnoxious; people ask for options and you say no because it is "not worth it"?
If people asked for cybernetic ascension path for hives in the past would you have shut it down too because genetic was king for hives anyway? "Oh but the devs made it worth it" EXACTLY! The devs have the power to make things balanced.

With all the respect for you and for the community, it is not your right to shut down others ideas because of balance, as I said this is a job for the devs to figure out.
We here are trying to tell different stories with our empires, some want their machines to embrace the Architect of Clay, some want their hives to become an even stronger conciousness aware of its psionic nature, let people voice it!

I got tons of dislikes in my first post and some more in the others, and I am glad it gathered so much attention; the provocative seeds of thought will soon sprout as we get more and more info on the marvelous nature of rifts and how they talk with existing events and lore.
"But the dev said the rifts are not spiritualist" -no, it is shallow to think this is my point, my point is that the contact with the "astral" has a nature of mystery and marvel to it which while not being a contact with the Shroud itself, carries a lot of metaphysical curiousness which would in turn call for an ascension which lets your species reach "beyond", even if in their own pragmatic technological ways with 0 Spiritualism.
Another point of contention is that a lot of people are yelling the Shroud is a dimension of will and dreams. And what are the rift dimensions made of? Do you people know? What I see is a moving goalpost of what dimensions can be objectively studied and which cannot. Well, I am placing all alternate dimensions in the same basket of Astral Planes and will cease doing that if the devs speak up and say the Shroud is something entirely different, an Extra-Astral Plane unlike anything the rifts have.

To conclude, I'll point out we always had voices asking for more ascension options, I wasn't the first and will not be the last. Astral Planes will just make it worse, so good luck dealing with it.

 

[Shaded Moon]

Another point of contention is that a lot of people are yelling the Shroud is a dimension of will and dreams.

To add to that, the materialist approach would also be filled with both of those as well. It takes massive amounts of creativity and dedication to develop new technologies.

And besides that, machine empires can not just interact with the shroud, they can use it as their bitch if they go crisis. Obviously you don't need a soul under the limited definition of spiritualists to interact with the shrouds

BTW if we ever get a psyonic materialist option, a synthetic friendly spiritualist one would be awesome, too. Spiritualists can tell droids that they have souls after all

 

[Varren]

To add to that, the materialist approach would also be filled with both of those as well. It takes massive amounts of creativity and dedication to develop new technologies.

So, the thing with materialists is they valorize the scientific method, empiricism, independently repeated tests, et cetera. The Shroud doesn't work like that. It's more of a living thing. Imagine trying to set up scientific experiments to study the behavior of your neighbor, who also happens to be far smarter than you and know you're studying him.

Now, it's certainly possible to take such drastic measures that your neighbor has no choice but to react predictably, and study those reactions scientifically. For instance, you can determine that stabbing your neighbor will make him bleed and cry out in pain. That's essentially what the crisis empires are doing.

For anyone who doesn't want to go that far, you're very limited in what you can understand. The Shroud does not behave predictably. The closest you can get is making a covenant with one of the entities within it, and they're not about to tell you their secrets.

All that said, the Shroud's existence can be verified, so it makes sense for materialists to eventually be able to access it, albeit with difficulty. Which is exactly how it works right now: Materialists are perfectly free to take the AP, but take longer to get the techs via agenda.

 

[Ajacoba]

I see you are having lots of fun shutting down others asking for a Shroud Tech Path because you think those techs are weak. Well I think these posts are rather obnoxious; people ask for options and you say no because it is "not worth it"?
If people asked for cybernetic ascension path for hives in the past would you have shut it down too because genetic was king for hives anyway? "Oh but the devs made it worth it" EXACTLY! The devs have the power to make things balanced.

I don't think those techs are weak, I just think people overrate their usefulness
all 4 ascensions are equal in power, so all those narratives of "materialists/machine hives are observing 'superior tech' and ignoring it for no reason" are just silly
especially since there's nothing stopping materialists from going down psionic ascension in the first place

sure, hive minds may be banned from that ascension, but there's no harm there either because their game play is fairly unique in the first place
not everyone needs access to everything

also me "denying" your ideas isn't that much different from you telling the devs to rewrite the current stellaris lore just so your mechanical hivemind can dream of electric sheep void avatars or just so your hivemind can off itself by exposing the soul of its core entity as well as all the drones to the threats lurking on the other side of the veil

 

[DanielPrates]

I just want a self-reality check here, for my own growth: did anybody else also read the name "astral planes" and, for a second, actually believed that the next DLC would bring something interesting like Master of Magic's different planes, i.e. paralel maps with different rules etc.?

 

[kwheeler]

View attachment 1032719

A question, has anyone seen this shiptype before? My first thought was necroid or human science ships, but it seems to be something else. Just a creative part of the picture or an actual hint on special new ships?

Isn't that just the humanoid science ship at an odd angle? See image attachment for front view.

 

[Maethendias]

"Astral Planes is a narrative-focused expansion"

i SINCERLY hope that with narrative focus you dont mean bs like the minmatar origins OR anomalies/digsites

because as i have said before... doing that RUINS the sandbox more than it adds... perfect example are broken shackles and payback... the fact that they are PREWRITTEN storyorigins instead of mechanical sandbox origins prevents them from being used by ethics that make much more sense, simply by virtue of "storyrelevant issues"... talking about gestalts here btw... (for why they would fit, i suggest reading chrysalis for an amazing dexterminator fiction)

stellaris, despite its heavy focus on it, does not do prewritten stories well at all... in fact its QUITE bad at it simply by virtue of it being a sandbox grandstrategy...

you cant have a game focused on emergent storytelling, with repeated playthroughs.... combined with prewritten stories and expected them to be interessting after the second playthrough...

its significantly better for stellaris to focus on introducing mechanics and new tech, than storyblurps that are gonna get ingored after the 10th playthrough...

stellaris was always an emergent storygenerator at first, i really hope that astral planes is gonna go the route of eve online wormholes rather than being another anomaly system which is gonna become utterly irrelevant aside from things like ressource gains


heres hoping

call me orcacle cause i called it
30% negative btw

 

[Panzerslothen]

30% negative btw

That doesn't really mean much, and it isn't really fair. The real motive for the string of bad steam reviews is obviously motivated by salt at the launch problems / checksum bug, despite the Devs busting a gut to try and fix that in rapid time.

 

[mrt1212]

So, the thing with materialists is they valorize the scientific method, empiricism, independently repeated tests, et cetera. The Shroud doesn't work like that. It's more of a living thing. Imagine trying to set up scientific experiments to study the behavior of your neighbor, who also happens to be far smarter than you and know you're studying him.

Now, it's certainly possible to take such drastic measures that your neighbor has no choice but to react predictably, and study those reactions scientifically. For instance, you can determine that stabbing your neighbor will make him bleed and cry out in pain. That's essentially what the crisis empires are doing.

For anyone who doesn't want to go that far, you're very limited in what you can understand. The Shroud does not behave predictably. The closest you can get is making a covenant with one of the entities within it, and they're not about to tell you their secrets.

All that said, the Shroud's existence can be verified, so it makes sense for materialists to eventually be able to access it, albeit with difficulty. Which is exactly how it works right now: Materialists are perfectly free to take the AP, but take longer to get the techs via agenda.

What if the ticket to enter is a leap of faith materialists are categorically unable to make though?

 

[Metallichydra]

What if the ticket to enter is a leap of faith materialists are categorically unable to make though?

Exactly what I've always thought was the reason why materialists are incompatible with the shroud - Yes, they can see that the shroud exists, and they can feel its effect, but they try to measure it with science when the only way to actually access the shroud is by faith - no matter how much science they apply, they ain't gonna make it because they need faith.

 

[Soranya]

Exactly what I've always thought was the reason why materialists are incompatible with the shroud - Yes, they can see that the shroud exists, and they can feel its effect, but they try to measure it with science when the only way to actually access the shroud is by faith - no matter how much science they apply, they ain't gonna make it because they need faith.

The Machine Crisis does disagree.

Also- price tag for DLC is to high - its a story DLC so please lower pricetag to i dont know - half...

And besides fixing existing story content (or updating it to interact with new mechanics) - maybe stop with story telling for i dont know a year or two and focus on mechanics and interacting systems instead.

Especially proerply interacting systems are a little bit missing. Everything basically giving a modifier for a few core mechanics is kind of boring.

 

[Tannhäuser Cake]

Materialist does not have a monopoly on the scientific method, any more than Spiritualist rejects it.
The fundamental divide is that Materialists believe reality begets consciousness, while Spiritualists believe consciousness begets reality.
Hence the previous difficulty for Materialists to grok psionics and the Shroud, which are much closer to the second concept of reality.
At least, it used to be the idea back in time immemorial, IIRC.

(Though nowadays it is kind of awkward to design religious empires that have a fundamentally non-Spiritualist worldview, or non-religious Spiritualists who strongly believe in "human rights" and other abstract ideas without embracing fuzzy laws of nature. Stellaris' content design has not at all been consistent in regards to the difference between Spiritualist ethics and religion. And the semi-forced marriage between Spiritualist and psionics makes things even weirder. I believe this narrowed vision of Spiritualist also hurts the concept of Materialist; the more narrow and specific Spiritualist gets, the more Materialist suffers the same fate as "Spiritualist's opposite reflection". Spiritualist could really use a second ascension path that is about staying true to yourself and your ideals, purity of purpose / existence, or something like that.)

 

[117Killer]

That doesn't really mean much, and it isn't really fair. The real motive for the string of bad steam reviews is obviously motivated by salt at the launch problems / checksum bug, despite the Devs busting a gut to try and fix that in rapid time.

I think it's the other way around. The steam reviews are far more likely to give an objective view of the DLC quality, especially compared to the forums. Here on the forums you'll find ONLY the people interested or dedicated enough to stellaris to come here and interact, whereas there you have a larger mix of those who just play the game without following paradox or being overly interested in the community, only interested in the DLC based purely on its own merits.

 

[Maethendias]

That doesn't really mean much, and it isn't really fair. The real motive for the string of bad steam reviews is obviously motivated by salt at the launch problems / checksum bug, despite the Devs busting a gut to try and fix that in rapid time.

uhm, the real "string of bad steam reviews" is actually motivated by the lack of ACTUAL content for the 20 buck price tag, something youd know were you actually reading those reviews

its literally like i said, the entire system is JUST another anomaly system with extra fluff... and people are starting to realize how that acutally translates into barely any content worth caring about

its literally one off content, you do it once to see, and then you probably dont do it ever again, unless theres like a modifier you want.... In which case you just powergame through the whole thing to get the modifier and thats it

as i have said time and time again, you cant introduce fixxed story mechanics into a SANDBOX EMPIRE BUILDER, it is inherently incompatible... and the fact that stellaris is so RIDDLED with them is one of hte biggest reasons why mid game is such a horrible slog to go through... because all you do is spam click through anomalies, digsites, events, operations....

the ACTUAL game has taken such a backseat its not even funny anymore.... warfare is literally just a numbers game, economics is literally just "make more x ressource", politics dont exist, inner or outer, technology is a joke that you also just spam click through, planet manamgent is a complete slog

BUT HEY have more like fanfiction in your sandbox game, screw emergent storytelling, screw acutal gameplay, screw empire management, or the empire ROLEPLAY for that matter

 

[Panzerslothen]

uhm, the real "string of bad steam reviews" is actually motivated by the lack of ACTUAL content for the 20 buck price tag, something youd know were you actually reading those reviews

"were you actually reading those reviews"... what, like I have done several times, and I even directly quote from in this comment?

There's bad reviews blaming bugs and problems. There's bad reviews blaming the UI changes. And, yes, there's bad reviews focusing on a perceived lack of value. I never said there wasn't. I said that I thought the bad reviews were being motivated by the launch problems... because it's evident those launch problems have made a lot of people very mad and they're taking it out on the DLC . People who might otherwise think the DLC isn't enough bang for buck but might let that slide (enough to not leave a bad review because of it) are instead fired up to do so. This is something we've seen many times before.

And, of course, there are different kinds of reviews from yesterday morning, than to the ones this morning. Scroll back into the reviews from the 16th and 17th and you see fewer 'value proposition' based complaints then to now.

But of course, don't let any of these little 'the facts' get in the way of throwing big red 'FU's at me and lying about what I meant.

 

[Soranya]

Materialist does not have a monopoly on the scientific method, any more than Spiritualist rejects it.
The fundamental divide is that Materialists believe reality begets consciousness, while Spiritualists believe consciousness begets reality.
Hence the previous difficulty for Materialists to grok psionics and the Shroud, which are much closer to the second concept of reality.
At least, it used to be the idea back in time immemorial, IIRC.

(Though nowadays it is kind of awkward to design religious empires that have a fundamentally non-Spiritualist worldview, or non-religious Spiritualists who strongly believe in "human rights" and other abstract ideas without embracing fuzzy laws of nature. Stellaris' content design has not at all been consistent in regards to the difference between Spiritualist ethics and religion. And the semi-forced marriage between Spiritualist and psionics makes things even weirder. I believe this narrowed vision of Spiritualist also hurts the concept of Materialist; the more narrow and specific Spiritualist gets, the more Materialist suffers the same fate as "Spiritualist's opposite reflection". Spiritualist could really use a second ascension path that is about staying true to yourself and your ideals, purity of purpose / existence, or something like that.)

Then maybe Psoinics and Spiritualism (which Religion is a subsection of) should be divided by the curators.

 

[PanzergrenadierBBC]

"were you actually reading those reviews"... what, like I have done several times, and I even directly quote from in this comment?

There's bad reviews blaming bugs and problems. There's bad reviews blaming the UI changes. And, yes, there's bad reviews focusing on a perceived lack of value. I never said there wasn't. I said that I thought the bad reviews were being motivated by the launch problems... because it's evident those launch problems have made a lot of people very mad and they're taking it out on the DLC . People who might otherwise think the DLC isn't enough bang for buck but might let that slide (enough to not leave a bad review because of it) are instead fired up to do so. This is something we've seen many times before.

And, of course, there are different kinds of reviews from yesterday morning, than to the ones this morning. Scroll back into the reviews from the 16th and 17th and you see fewer 'value proposition' based complaints then to now.

But of course, don't let any of these little 'the facts' get in the way of throwing big red 'FU's at me and lying about what I meant.

The thin is imho that if you taking 20 bucks for a DLC the people have the right to have no launch problems. Therefore it is part of the DLC. Yes in some months or weeks when the bugs are fixed and the launch problems are gone it will be difficult to separate those from the content reviews.
I also think that it is a valid critique and review if people give a negative review because of launch problem and if they cannot play the game, if the price is (very) high. A higher price must give anything more back. More or enough content or more quality. If you raise prices but have nothing more to give then people can complain rightfully. It seems as this applies to Astral Planes and therefore complains about launch problems and bugs should be part of the DLC reviews.

 

[Panzerslothen]

The thin is imho that if you taking 20 bucks for a DLC the people have the right to have no launch problems. Therefore it is part of the DLC. Yes in some months or weeks when the bugs are fixed and the launch problems are gone it will be difficult to separate those from the content reviews.
I also think that it is a valid critique and review if people give a negative review because of launch problem and if they cannot play the game, if the price is (very) high. A higher price must give anything more back. More or enough content or more quality. If you raise prices but have nothing more to give then people can complain rightfully.

I don't think I'd go so far as to say a "Right" to no launch problems - invoking 'Rights' seems slightly overkill - but certainly yes, there is a reasonable expectation that major issues should be avoided. But no, it's not a problem unique to the DLC package; we see this kind of thing occur enough even with 'just' Custodian updates.

A higher price must give anything more back. More or enough content or more quality. If you raise prices but have nothing more to give then people can complain rightfully.

It's incredibly frustrating for me, making such an effort to talk about the other points than value proposition (which I'm leaving aside for now), to continually have people putting words in my mouth and saying that I am talking about the value proposition point. I'm staying away from that entire topic for a reason, but that's not being acknowledged.

It seems as this applies to Astral Planes and therefore complains about launch problems and bugs should be part of the DLC reviews.

I share your frustration at the wait (because I'm an incredibly impatient person, owing to working a lot and having very little free time with which to unwind on some Stellaris).

I also think that it is a valid critique and review if people give a negative review because of launch problem

Well we'll have to disagree on this one. It's understandable, sure, and a valid critique in its own right - launch problems are frustrating. But as I've said before, much like how a dog isn't for Christmas, a DLC isn't just for release week. The DLCs endure and get patched into shape over time, but the negative reviews still remain. They're never removed or updated once the reviewers move on, so they sit there colouring review pages (and broader (mis)conceptions about the game).

The people who did not buy Astral Planes are equally as affected by the Outliner change as the people who did buy Astral Planes, for instance. Or the Defence Platform bug. While it's true that the initial ownership/checksum bug appeared to be limited to only those who had bought the DLC, the fact is that the DLC launches concurrently with the update, and so different problems occur at the same time. Some of those are DLC-unique, some are not - and so that distinction should be made.

 

[Soranya]

I don't think I'd go so far as to say a "Right" to no launch problems - invoking 'Rights' seems slightly overkill - but certainly yes, there is a reasonable expectation that major issues should be avoided. But no, it's not a problem unique to the DLC package; we see this kind of thing occur enough even with 'just' Custodian updates.

Actually, when you purchase a product or service you have the right that this purchase is error free. If it is not you have the right to demand a fix.
At least in germany that is.

And faulty software products are no different in that regard...

And Steam shows "recent" and "all" reviews in the overview - so when the quality of the product increases this will be clearly reflected.

Also when you sell a faulty product you have to accept that there will be complains and records of said complains.