CO Word of the Week #15

[Lyken2010]

At this point and situation in CS2, they might not be a huge number of players playing the game and buying DLCs in the future, and Paradox and CO should be worried about it, because CS2 it's a long time product with many DLC incoming to make more profit.

Exactly, there is no conspiracy theory here, simple logic applies. If CO would have any accurate, solid and achieavable timeline for updates, modes, new fixtures PDX would be first to announce them to stop the bleeding. Reason they dont is pretty obvious, none of the updates, modes, fictures are at the state that they can comfortably set the timeline.

 

[NirrMartinez]

There are already some exciting mods and beautiful maps out there (yes, we see you!)

As there is the Thunderstore, why even bothering implementing your own service. Thunderstore would have been enough, Steam Workshop would have been enough. With the amount of employees you guys have. Put the R&D and the work in the actual game instead of a Mod service that already exists.

 

[NirrMartinez]

Thnx for the update, cheers to you guys on the hard work!! Is there any news on the console edition?

What update lmao

 

[Zenya]

I'm still pausing to play Cities: Skylines II, because of lack of challenge.
Is it difficult to add some simple economical options?
For example,

• Cost: normal, high, very high
• Subsidies: normal, half, off
• Milestone money: normal, half, off

 

[BoraBora]

We know that the reason for this is Paradox, not Colossal Order.
Pdx are the ones who decide when they announce dates, yet they tell CO to write weekly non-communication.

"The publisher will handle all announcements and therefore there will be no timelines in the communication from us devs." simply means "PDX told us to stop enraging our customers by making empty promises". Because that's what they've been doing for months.

PDX announce dates when there's something marketable to announce (DLC, new version, mod platform). They don't give timelines or roadmaps, they market a product. So when something's ready, they announce it a couple weeks before. But only CO can tell them: "OK, we're ready, market it".

PDX wants CO to keep communicating, which makes sense because the game isn't finished and weeks of silence would be interpreted as abandon. CO keeps non-communicating because 5 months of supposed "hard work" from 30 people produced next to nothing. If the game hadn't been an incomplete beta at release, there wouldn't be any need for these WotW and we wouldn't have this conversation. If CO had fixed and completed most of the game these past 5 months instead of "easy fixes" (in Mariina's words), these WotW would satisfy most everybody.

 

[:sevenw0rds]

Let’s discuss the status of the modding support today. The Editor has been in the works and we have shared versions of it with a closed group of a few selected modders for feedback. We are very fortunate to have this dedicated group of people eager to try experimental solutions and voice their opinions on them. Their feedback helps us understand how tools are used and how we can improve them. We have been surprised by the modders so many times in Cities in Motion and Cities: Skylines that we have stopped trying to guess what you might want to do or achieve. It’s much more helpful for us to just ask directly how to support those efforts instead.

Collaboration with the closed group has been going on behind the scenes for months now. Together, we have put a lot of effort towards the beta version of the modding tools, and we really can’t wait to share them with you! We believe modding is a pivotal part of the experience with a Cities: Skylines game and we want to encourage everyone to be as creative as possible.

As we’re preparing for the public release with support for Code Modding and the Map Editor, Paradox is running a broader Early Access for modders and creators chosen from the sign-up earlier this year. This gives creators the early opportunity to give the team direct feedback on using Paradox Mods, the new Modding Toolchain, and the Map Editor. We’re looking forward to seeing their feedback, and having the first Code Mods, Maps, and Savegames uploaded to the platform and ready for you on its release! This is all to support the quest of making sure we have a robust start when the tools are released, and this is a good opportunity to test Paradox Mods as well. We’ll be sharing more information on each part: Paradox Mods, Code Modding, and Map Editing later on so you’ll know what to expect.

I would like to emphasize again that there is still a lot of work still to be done: Asset editing is not in a shape or form to be used as-is. We’ll still need more time to make importing the assets work. The Region Packs teased at the end of last year are bundles of assets of varying sizes and content made by some of your favorite creators from the community. These assets rely on us finalizing the asset editor to a point where we are happy that the import pipeline and saving will be in a future-proof state. This is an ongoing effort, alongside improving the Code Modding and Map Editing based on the feedback we’ll receive from the Early Access and eventually from all of you. We have dedicated devs working on the modding support, eager to tackle bugs and implement improvements, so we’ll keep patching the tools throughout the public Beta phase until we have Modding 1.0 available. Naturally, the work will continue even past that as we receive more feedback and suggestions from you.

The creators and modders of Cities: Skylines brought so much cool and innovative content to the game, and we can’t wait to see what you come up with for Cities: Skylines II. There are already some exciting mods and beautiful maps out there (yes, we see you!) and it will be very exciting to see what you create with the added support!

Sincerely,
Mariina

That's a lot of words to say absolutely nothing.

 

[Stevo Wallis]

Thanks for the update on how things are progressing Mariina. I liked the info. I don’t blame you if you discontinue these WOTW’s with the way the community is carrying on.

Looks like PDX really thru you guys under the bus with their greed.

Maybe the community should turn some heat on the ones we all know forced this situation.

Anyway, just keep working away knowing that one day all will be forgiven and you’ll will have created the greatest city builder ever.

 

[yalex]

Have you followed CK3? PDX absolutely does hold back announcements simply in order to release them at some more marketable dates, no matter what the impact on development is.

I'm not sure CK3 is a fair comparison to CS2 in terms of launch state.
A fairer comparison might be Vic3, where PDX was upfront on agreeing there were issues and walke through their improvements on a roughly week by week basis.

Ethics of a poor launch state aside, PDX seems more sincere in its communications than CO. Granted this based on the general vibe of their written words, but CO built up expectations over this week WoTW and as far as I can there's no new information or anything tangible to announce.

 

[MostBlunted]

Much words for "no update".

 

[Hero_dazhu]

Wasn't this WoW supposed to be about art from the art team?

It was just the plan, did not mean to happen!

 

[snaek]

Sad to see Paradox all but cannibalize the stalwart player base of the first game in an attempt to secure a good chunk of the console market as well, by forcing their own subpar solution to a mod database that is turning out to be extremely difficult to implement, seemingly. Why couldn't it just co-exist with the Steam Workshop, which worked very well for the first game?

And then for them to take no responsibility and stay radio silent while shuffling all communication with the community onto the developer? Pretty shitty.

Don't get me wrong, there's some clear indications of a lack of proper project management on the hand of CO here, but I'm confident Paradox is mainly to blame for the issues we're up against here. They're not doing their job as publisher at all.

 

[seanbaran77]

Let’s discuss the status of the modding support today. The Editor has been in the works and we have shared versions of it with a closed group of a few selected modders for feedback. We are very fortunate to have this dedicated group of people eager to try experimental solutions and voice their opinions on them. Their feedback helps us understand how tools are used and how we can improve them. We have been surprised by the modders so many times in Cities in Motion and Cities: Skylines that we have stopped trying to guess what you might want to do or achieve. It’s much more helpful for us to just ask directly how to support those efforts instead.

Collaboration with the closed group has been going on behind the scenes for months now. Together, we have put a lot of effort towards the beta version of the modding tools, and we really can’t wait to share them with you! We believe modding is a pivotal part of the experience with a Cities: Skylines game and we want to encourage everyone to be as creative as possible.

As we’re preparing for the public release with support for Code Modding and the Map Editor, Paradox is running a broader Early Access for modders and creators chosen from the sign-up earlier this year. This gives creators the early opportunity to give the team direct feedback on using Paradox Mods, the new Modding Toolchain, and the Map Editor. We’re looking forward to seeing their feedback, and having the first Code Mods, Maps, and Savegames uploaded to the platform and ready for you on its release! This is all to support the quest of making sure we have a robust start when the tools are released, and this is a good opportunity to test Paradox Mods as well. We’ll be sharing more information on each part: Paradox Mods, Code Modding, and Map Editing later on so you’ll know what to expect.

I would like to emphasize again that there is still a lot of work still to be done: Asset editing is not in a shape or form to be used as-is. We’ll still need more time to make importing the assets work. The Region Packs teased at the end of last year are bundles of assets of varying sizes and content made by some of your favorite creators from the community. These assets rely on us finalizing the asset editor to a point where we are happy that the import pipeline and saving will be in a future-proof state. This is an ongoing effort, alongside improving the Code Modding and Map Editing based on the feedback we’ll receive from the Early Access and eventually from all of you. We have dedicated devs working on the modding support, eager to tackle bugs and implement improvements, so we’ll keep patching the tools throughout the public Beta phase until we have Modding 1.0 available. Naturally, the work will continue even past that as we receive more feedback and suggestions from you.

The creators and modders of Cities: Skylines brought so much cool and innovative content to the game, and we can’t wait to see what you come up with for Cities: Skylines II. There are already some exciting mods and beautiful maps out there (yes, we see you!) and it will be very exciting to see what you create with the added support!

Sincerely,
Mariina

Can we please have any kind of update on console? We know you value your PC players more and us on console do not mean much to you but we do exist and you treat us like we don’t. Tell us something about the status of your progress on console since the delay was announced over 4 months ago.

 

[seanbaran77]

Sad to see Paradox all but cannibalize the stalwart player base of the first game in an attempt to secure a good chunk of the console market as well, by forcing their own subpar solution to a mod database that is turning out to be extremely difficult to implement, seemingly. Why couldn't it just co-exist with the Steam Workshop, which worked very well for the first game?

And then for them to take no responsibility and stay radio silent while shuffling all communication with the community onto the developer? Pretty shitty.

Don't get me wrong, there's some clear indications of a lack of proper project management on the hand of CO here, but I'm confident Paradox is mainly to blame for the issues we're up against here. They're not doing their job as publisher at all.

They are not doing this for console. They act like we do not exist. Not update since the delay announcement. They do not respond to any of our questions. Many on console think it’s may even get cancelled. And CS1 is too buggy on console to play. So we are just.. they don’t care.

 

[edumato]

Serious question: Why don't you just patch those asset packs in the basegame like you did with CS1 and probably the upcoming CS2 DLC? No need to wait for the asset editor.

Everybody will want these packs anyway so it makes sense to just enhance the game with those assets and make the basegame better.

I gives people finally something new play with, content creators something new to make content for.

Because then they have to pay them

 

[BoraBora]

Because then they have to pay them

This. And they'd become responsible for anything wrong with any asset. Right now, theyre potential mods. If they patch them into the base game, then they become vanilla and CO's problem.

There's another problem. CS II is already one of the worst games performance-wise so adding 2500+ assets would be a terrible idea. Especially since only a minority will want all of these assets. Most people will want to choose the ones they like and/or need.

 

[Nicthurne]

I'm not sure CK3 is a fair comparison to CS2 in terms of launch state.
A fairer comparison might be Vic3, where PDX was upfront on agreeing there were issues and walke through their improvements on a roughly week by week basis.

Ethics of a poor launch state aside, PDX seems more sincere in its communications than CO. Granted this based on the general vibe of their written words, but CO built up expectations over this week WoTW and as far as I can there's no new information or anything tangible to announce.

tbf I'd think that the people leading Vic3 development have more sway within Pdx as a whole and can get the suits to agree with them on a strategy more easily than CO can.

 

[homerCCCP]

It is really difficult to understand the slow pace. Especially balance-wise there should be some "low-hanging-fruits" that should be a matter of hours, not to say minutes, certainly not months.

 

[AGayRobot420]

I still don not get why nobody at CO or Paradox just honestly says: "Ok, we made a huge mistake, we overestimated ourselves and advertised misleading. Lets move this game to "Early Access" and make it 30 USD. Everybody who bought the standard edition will get a free upgrade to ultimate. And everyone who bought the ultimate edition will get an upgrade to Supporter Edition which includes other free stuff, like two additonal DLCs or something."

Players are angry not because your game is extremely bad, in my opinion it is playable and a really nice early access game but because you lay to them and it feels like a fraud.

This is the answer here. People paid for DLC you can't even put in your game because your own modding support is broken. Just give me a refund.

I suspect this will never happen though. I also suspect another delay in modding support, this WOTW seems to be attempting to soften the blow for this upcoming announcement. Gonna be coming up on 5 months here shortly, almost half a year with this buggy mess of a game and only a few easy bug fixes along the way, and you can't even get your art team to come up with a bit of fluff for the WOTW?

It's time to stop ignoring your customers and give out refunds to the people who want them.

 

[BE-Raph]

I read a lot of messages that don't understand why there is so much anger towards developers.

Nothing justifies gratuitous nastiness. On the other hand, I can understand the anger and frustration.

I'm frustrated... Why?

I am a very passionate person about this style of play. They are part of an escape to forget the daily worries of everyday life.

I won't be able to go back to SC4, SC2013 or even SC1. These are games from another era. Cities XL, XXL etc... were beautiful but just for painters.

CS2 is therefore an opportunity to be seized knowing that we will have to wait 10 years before another game. I have not heard of the creation of a similar game.

10 years is a long time... A lot can happen in a lifetime. Maybe this is the last game for some people.

The marketing campaign made huge promises. Many (passionate) players followed the episodes with stars in their eyes, ignoring the state of the game.

We're almost 6 months after the game's release and the OC is mired in a ton of worrying issues.

The performance issues are almost all fixed. Unfortunately for the rest, patience has become difficult to maintain.

The game is visually beautiful but the simulation is broken. We don't know the difference between what is bugged and what is "as designed in the game".

We've been playing with the same cards with the same buildings for 6 months. Primary school at the top of the list.

There is no challenge, the society is utopian, social problems seem taboo in the simulation apart from the homeless.

Even a city painter must begin to get bored.

Nothing justifies meanness. But we must understand the anger of those who had stars in their eyes. These people will remain faithful to her and will be able to forgive.

 

[Lys91]

As there is the Thunderstore, why even bothering implementing your own service. Thunderstore would have been enough, Steam Workshop would have been enough. With the amount of employees you guys have. Put the R&D and the work in the actual game instead of a Mod service that already exists.

I said this before, but the problem is not PDXMod, it would be the same if they were using the Steam Workshop. There is no asset mod on Thunderstore either. The problem is in the game, not the tool you are using to distribute the mod (I am 99% sure PDXMod can do that just fine). The reason the mods are not on Steam or PDXMod right now is because the way mods are added to the game right now is dangerous from a computer security perspective (you are running untrusted third-party code). My guess is that they don't have any way to run mods safely, which is why it cannot go on any official platform to distribute mods. There are some standard for the steam workshop, imagine the scandal if mods on their platform led to stolen private information or worse. The problem lies squarely in CO court. The problem is not PDXMod. This is just more posturing and deflection of responsibilities from CO.

EDIT to be clear:

Is PDXMod as good as Steam? Probably not
Is it buggy? Probably yes
Does it work? Probably yes

However, the core issue lies in C:S2; barely anything in the game works properly; why would the mods be the only thing that works, and they are held back by evil PDX?