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Tinto Talks #13 - 22nd of May 2024

Welcome to another Tinto Talks, where we give out top-secret information about our upcoming unannounced game with the code name Project Caesar. This time we will touch a little bit on the aspect of religion in this game.

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Every country, pop, or character has a religion they adhere to. This impacts their relationship with the place they currently are, and their relationship with others in the world.


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This is the religious setup of Aragon in 1337.

Every religion in Project Caesar belongs to a Religion Group, such as Christianity or Paganism. Fellow religions in the same group consider each other to be merely Heretic, whereas religions in different groups condemn each other as Heathen.

Every religion has a specific view of other religions as well, that ranges from Kindred to Enemy, which impacts relations between countries of different faiths, and how populations of another faith view your country.

Each country also has their own tolerance of their true faith, of heretics, and of heathens, which impacts how happy or angry the population will be depending on which country they belong to.


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The Same Religion here, is from the law relating to valid heirs.

The religious unity of your country has a really large impact on the satisfaction of your Clergy Estate.

Important to know is that in Project Caesar, you just do not send missionaries to your locations and eventually they have changed religion. Here conversion is a slower process, which relies on government activities and infrastructure.


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A unique building for Muslim countries that has a tiny impact on conversion.

Each religion belongs to a group, which impacts which tolerance is applied and how religions interact with each other. Religions in the same group are viewed as heretics, but those of another group as heathens.

The groups we currently have are, but that may change as we continue to develop the game.
  • Christian
  • Muslim
  • Eastern
  • Dharmic
  • Zoroastrian
  • Manichean
  • Judean
  • Andean
  • Pagan

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The current Christian religions. Take into account that they are very much WIP!

In some games we have made there have not been any major differences between religions, merely being different modifiers, and while some religions in Project Caesar are still only a few modifiers, many will have mechanics. Right now, we have made unique mechanics for Catholicism, Orthodoxy, Miaphysitism, the various Protestants, Muslims, Buddhists, Shinto, Nahuatl, Hinduism & the Inti religion. Each of these will get their own unique later development diary.

Now every religion will still have some modifiers that describe them, in many cases it is things that enable or disable certain mechanics. Some examples include the fact that countries with Jain as their state religion can not start wars without a casus belli, and that Calvinist countries will never reroll the dice in a battle, as everything is preordained.

Stay tuned for next week, where we talk about another completely new feature that adds flavor to the game.

Sadly, I can’t reply today, as I am at some management thingie in Stockholm, but @Pavía will help you out!
 
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I am liking what I am seeing. Naturally I don't like the whole animist thing but reading comments it seems to be a placeholder. But I do have some other questions.

1.) How do you handle non-exclusive religions. Specifically I am looking at the eastern religions. In this era Buddhism and Shintoism were heavily intertwined and still are in Japan. Or how in many places Buddhism and Hinduism were intertwined. And of course China where you had the mixing of Buddhism, Taoism and Confucianism? O

2.) For christianity will there be other faiths added like Baptism, Anabaptism, Quakerism, Catharism, and Waldensians, just to name a few?

3.) Will Hinduism be one religion or have its own various denominations? Ie how will the traditions of Shivism, Vaishnivism, Smarta, Shaktism be repersented?

4.) will every religion or faith have their own unique building?
 
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That should probably be reversed. Historically, "Shinto" never really existed in its modern context before the era of Kokugaku scholarship in the Edo Period. Before that, Shinto as a concept was not a thing anyone would have recognized. Kami Worship was varied from place to place. Village to village even, it was highly decentralized outside of the Imperial Cult. Buddhism was dominant in Japan until after World War 2. Shinto Shrines were inside of Buddhist temples most of the time, and as well Buddhist sects and Monasteries were landholding elites with levy armies of their own and contributed heavily to the power politics of Japan. For as many powerful Shugo, Clans, and other various forms of Warlords as there were there were just as many Temples and Sects that held wide swathes of land themselves.

Please reconsider this. I believe the best way to handle it would to have Mahayana be the dominant religion in Japan with "Kami Worship" as a minority faith. That would be the most historically authentic. Shinto is just a fantasy faith in this time period, even as an umbrella term for Kami Worship, Kami Worship was still less influential than Buddhism. Buddhism was hugely connected to politics in Japan, Kami Worship was not after Buddhism took over.

I really want to see a Japan that has the landholding Buddhist sects represented. I'd love to see a map tag that can spawn for Ishiyama Honganji for example or other such regional powerholding Temples. Even an Osaka tag if possible as a spawnable republic vassal.
Yeah, Shintoism is another complex issue to tackle, as the Japanese population was pretty much syncretic, mixing various beliefs and rites. We think that our current solution, which we'll present in detail in a future DD, is a good one to represent it, and we'll try to make it as flexible as possible. In any case, Shinto will undoubtedly be inside the Buddhist umbrella in one way or another.
 
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So if the catholic church is an international organisation what will its relationship be with the Papapl state? Will the pope always be in control of it?
The Pope is always the leader of the Catholic Church.
 
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Loving the tiny teaser details about the New World! How come Andean religion is separate from Paganism though, which I presume the North American religion (along with Shamanism and Tengriism) will fall under?

Also, will there be Norse paganism present in the code? After all, the common consensus seems to be that the Norse Greenlander colony wasn't abandoned until after 1350, after the game start!
 
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Looking at the map further with the sea corridors. I have so many questions which is not the correct dev diary place to ask for. When will there be Tinto Talks for that topic?
 
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Representing the Chinese 'systems of beliefs' is difficult and complex, indeed, and I think that it wouldn't be possible to have an entirely accurate depiction of them, because of this complexity. However, we're trying to depict them in the best possible way to make it work with the different game systems.

I can raise this later when Buddhism or a Tinto Maps is hosted around China but I'd disagree with having Mahayana Buddhism represent religion in China on the following basis:
  • Although Buddhism had been heavily sinicized by the 14th century and was made up in China by Chinese sects with very distinctively Chinese beliefs, it was still known to be a foreign religion with origins outside of China and was criticised by mainstream Chinese scholars and officials during the timeframe of the game. It was often deliberately contrasted to Confucianism and Taoism, and other times harmonised and syncretized with them according to the idea of the ‘Three Teachings’.
  • The popular religious practice upheld by the broad Chinese population outside of lay sects was not Buddhist in practice or underlying worldview, although it had some influences.
  • The state religious practice as upheld by the emperor was not Buddhist and involved a worldview and practices that did not constitute Buddhism.
  • It is contradictory to represent Japanese religion as ‘Shinto’ but not do the same for China. From the knowledge I have on Japan, prior to the Meiji reforms, Shinto was disorganised outside of the imperial rites, very varied and syncretized with Buddhism (even more than Chinese popular religion was) much like Chinese popular religion.
A better representation would be to have China's form of "shinto" as "Shendao" or "Shenism". Alternatively, named Taoism as some historians do not distinguish between organised Taoism and the popular religious practices of China at the time, believing both were interlinked.
 
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It will be possible to change state religion as in the CKs or like the previous EUs changes allowed are mostly from Catholic to Protestant/Reformed and from "native religions" to "organized ones"?
 
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the fact that countries with Jain as their state religion can not start wars

As a Jain I love to see the representation in one of my loved game series . A unique mechanic regarding Jainism can be with our Tirthankars which are there 24 of . so you can use many modifiers with different tirthankars . And the fact they the game shows us as pacifist is amazing as it is the only way to show the religion and with that I would like to recommend you about the Religion modifiers for Jainism something related to economic benefits would be fitting to Jain people but If you wanna follow the faith something related to peace would be more accurate but I don't think you can add something like that .
 
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Knowing that it is a work in progress can we have a list of the religions currently in the Andean group?
Currently only Inti.
 
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I still think that the reformation should model some form of Anti-trinitarian Christianity, it played an important role in the development of the US and Transylvania as well as early Christian religious tolerance.
 
will it affect something like aggressive expansions (or similar restrictive mechanics)? Would it not create a problem of nations not caring about each other because they don't share culture and religion like in eu4?
There will be different mechanics affected by the cultural and religious affinities and differences among countries.
 
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Yeah, Shintoism is another complex issue to tackle, as the Japanese population was pretty much syncretic, mixing various beliefs and rites. We think that our current solution, which we'll present in detail in a future DD, is a good one to represent it, and we'll try to make it as flexible as possible. In any case, Shinto will undoubtedly be inside the Buddhist umbrella in one way or another.

This is good news, thank you for tackling the issue, it is a complex one and would've been easy to just smooth over. I would say that perhaps the name could be changed to Kami Worship because Shinto is a very specific thing within Japanese culture and the world of Japanese scholarship. It isn't fitting as a catch-all term for pre-Edo Indigenous faith.

This is just being pedantic admittedly, but as a counterpoint to that: Look at the HRE lmao.
 
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