• We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.

Tinto Talks #13 - 22nd of May 2024

Welcome to another Tinto Talks, where we give out top-secret information about our upcoming unannounced game with the code name Project Caesar. This time we will touch a little bit on the aspect of religion in this game.

Vx1JCi0SoIWC_RmTIABR5snAPEW7QH88Ou7sQF4_68eXfurIipvfOB1Qrem_EmgkojIrk4PtQRImFu8qP6SKvEfv7HWXWPiezhibwcnYZOP58S42b3cfEGqm6O7DRp_D8CMBgY3Mka_qR5rChmo7R9w


Every country, pop, or character has a religion they adhere to. This impacts their relationship with the place they currently are, and their relationship with others in the world.


Cb9pnYM2UZhOJuDXSumhcymKxx2JoY_R62xRWwYAFWTr7CxP-zi4GRFUxyqOJu-L8BRZPrucPIpVemt_xPAZeOFo6OrkXuTq1TE8ZJtDAVTFZh38tk_KbqcbmCZaZVRuircaN3rG_dlGRp7ytUkXkPA

This is the religious setup of Aragon in 1337.

Every religion in Project Caesar belongs to a Religion Group, such as Christianity or Paganism. Fellow religions in the same group consider each other to be merely Heretic, whereas religions in different groups condemn each other as Heathen.

Every religion has a specific view of other religions as well, that ranges from Kindred to Enemy, which impacts relations between countries of different faiths, and how populations of another faith view your country.

Each country also has their own tolerance of their true faith, of heretics, and of heathens, which impacts how happy or angry the population will be depending on which country they belong to.


P3fulF18GNuLbeWWGxQEoTswmW53zqebOn67gFrZgYiFZzPc50UCdUMGekW2CpW9CcwFK4UPKqghkR5zuap96Byb91DDDmPZ3z7zyfdNxlk2Y8iANF0Uebf8bDGbKO4TA-bpg_GgdELXl_MpQR9hX0Q

The Same Religion here, is from the law relating to valid heirs.

The religious unity of your country has a really large impact on the satisfaction of your Clergy Estate.

Important to know is that in Project Caesar, you just do not send missionaries to your locations and eventually they have changed religion. Here conversion is a slower process, which relies on government activities and infrastructure.


YY6_rIi-5JIE7LribzG4wD9uCXOZkyRMh_lFe75rrkAU1pQW8kjiGTY3esOhQgKjtHd_rT0ynXABgm0LVXdBsKVTeVKay_3E2-r2m10aHdLvBE-E8GDT8ffYlf_XVccq_5CtV-umvgnmHtXlIM1RUbA

A unique building for Muslim countries that has a tiny impact on conversion.

Each religion belongs to a group, which impacts which tolerance is applied and how religions interact with each other. Religions in the same group are viewed as heretics, but those of another group as heathens.

The groups we currently have are, but that may change as we continue to develop the game.
  • Christian
  • Muslim
  • Eastern
  • Dharmic
  • Zoroastrian
  • Manichean
  • Judean
  • Andean
  • Pagan

cpBNm-1BHHQ4tLRTSf4UHDmm0eLzrewF9YnmUhGrFFUsVDRKJjdF0UeFLrpXVyReQJNeP_9t7sq8mpjHQJYWiM6PmtJQjtuVWyvCQWnINZRC1GofCobMRaG7f4XVcyXh041J-FN1mqibkEcF6Iwzeos

The current Christian religions. Take into account that they are very much WIP!

In some games we have made there have not been any major differences between religions, merely being different modifiers, and while some religions in Project Caesar are still only a few modifiers, many will have mechanics. Right now, we have made unique mechanics for Catholicism, Orthodoxy, Miaphysitism, the various Protestants, Muslims, Buddhists, Shinto, Nahuatl, Hinduism & the Inti religion. Each of these will get their own unique later development diary.

Now every religion will still have some modifiers that describe them, in many cases it is things that enable or disable certain mechanics. Some examples include the fact that countries with Jain as their state religion can not start wars without a casus belli, and that Calvinist countries will never reroll the dice in a battle, as everything is preordained.

Stay tuned for next week, where we talk about another completely new feature that adds flavor to the game.

Sadly, I can’t reply today, as I am at some management thingie in Stockholm, but @Pavía will help you out!
 
  • 250Like
  • 93Love
  • 16Haha
  • 10
  • 4
  • 2
Reactions:
Some religions will be more dynamic, and some will be more static.
Does that hint at a possible “customize your religion” feature, as in CK3, or is it rather a replay of the aspects of faith of EUIV?

I think religions should be customizable in the long run, but it shouldn’t be a walk in the park as it is in CK3. You should have to garner support for your reforms and if you don’t have enough, it should create dramatic splits difficult to mend.
 
  • 9
  • 1Like
Reactions:
I can raise this later when Buddhism or a Tinto Maps is hosted around China but I'd disagree with having Mahayana Buddhism represent religion in China on the following basis:
  • Although Buddhism had been heavily sinicized by the 14th century and was made up in China by Chinese sects with very distinctively Chinese beliefs, it was still known to be a foreign religion with origins outside of China and was criticised by mainstream Chinese scholars and officials during the timeframe of the game. It was often deliberately contrasted to Confucianism and Taoism, and other times harmonised and syncretized with them according to the idea of the ‘Three Teachings’.
  • The popular religious practice upheld by the broad Chinese population outside of lay sects was not Buddhist in practice or underlying worldview, although it had some influences.
  • The state religious practice as upheld by the emperor was not Buddhist and involved a worldview and practices that did not constitute Buddhism.
  • It is contradictory to represent Japanese religion as ‘Shinto’ but not do the same for China. From the knowledge I have on Japan, prior to the Meiji reforms, Shinto was disorganised outside of the imperial rites, very varied and syncretized with Buddhism (even more than Chinese popular religion was) much like Chinese popular religion.
A better representation would be to have China's form of "shinto" as "Shendao" or "Shenism". Alternatively, named Taoism as some historians do not distinguish between organised Taoism and the popular religious practices of China at the time, believing both were interlinked.

As someone who is in the camp of Shendao and Taoism being interlinked, I agree that the Chinese folk faith should be given the same treatment as "Shinto" just for the sake of consistency. Whatever is decided with "Shinto" should apply to Chinese folk faith, because the situation was similar enough to warrant parity in terms of gameplay mechanics.
 
  • 7
  • 2Like
  • 1
Reactions:
As an aside by the way. Will the Kaifeng Jews and the Zoroastrians of China be represented? There are a lot of fascinating diaspora and minority groups that the map could represent.
 
  • 1Like
Reactions:
Regarding the religious conversion and/or tolerance, will we have some sort of flavor decisions or decrees that can affect said conversion or tolerance? Like the Alhambra decree or the Statute of Kalisz?
There will be different actions available that will affect either conversion or tolerance, yes.
 
  • 34Like
  • 7
Reactions:
Is Slavic paganism also going to be in the game? I did read that during the 14th century not all Slavs were fully christian yet, especially in more remote areas in the north like Novgorod.
 
  • 1Like
  • 1
Reactions:
Devs please look into it.

1>North Eastern India (present Manipur state of India) the majority religion was Sanamahe. Only in the 20th century did the King officially convert to Hinduism so did most people. In present day 20% of the natives there still follow Sanamahe.

2> There are many temples in Eastern India which were a fusion of Hinduism and Buddhism. As Hindus consider Buddha an avatar of Lord Vishnu. Many temples still exist. Similarly in Champa, now Vietnam Hinduism and Buddhism were fluid and not rigid like Abhrahamic faiths. Might be hard to implement though

3> In eu4 Jainism was a heretic faith of Hinduism but heathen to buddhism. But infact Buddhism and Jainism are reform movements within Hinduism with more similarities to each other than Hinduism (Brahmanical Hinduism)

4> North Western India as shown as Mahayana majority is not true. There was a significant buddhist population but the Majority was Hindu

5> The golden horde is shown as majority Sunni but at the start of the game, conversion to Islam started only 20 years back with Tengri being the dominant majority
 
  • 4Like
  • 3
Reactions:
"one" of our content designers? You mean you have a single unlucky lad who has a summer to dig up obscure sources about the religous makeup of everything from Morocco to Samarkand? :p
The only person who has reacted with a 'Respectfully Disagree' to my reply, yes. :p
 
  • 124Haha
  • 10Like
  • 4Love
  • 1
  • 1
Reactions:
Will the impact of religion on relations between countries fade over time, at least for some countries? For example, the way that Peace of Westphalia introduced a new paradigm where certain countries no longer conducted diplomacy through the religious lenses.
 
  • 1
Reactions:
Why is Andean not shown in the map? will it spawn after the game start date? also please change the color for Hinduism, it is too similar to terrain color
1716390779137.png
 
  • 4Like
Reactions:
Have you considered taking a page from Vic3 and allowing religions to be part of multiple groups? That way you could have some Buddhist faiths be part of both the Eastern and Dharmic groups, which would help with the Hindu-Buddhist relationships you were talking of earlier.

Speaking of the Eastern group, would it make sense to rename it to the Buddhist group instead? In Eu4 the Eastern group consisted of 3 Buddhist denominations and 2 belief systems that were heavily intertwined with Buddhism, so I always thought it should just be called Buddhist instead of the awkward "Eastern". Of course, I don't know what religions the group includes in PC, so I can't say for sure whether renaming it would make sense in this game as well.
 
  • 10Like
  • 3
Reactions:
When I was watching the previous logs, I also realized that this game would be a breakthrough from the previous game. After reading this log, I hope the production team can consider the religions in East Asia more carefully.
 
to provide some feedback, shamanism is a pretty funny term. Shamanism doesn't exist while there's different religious understandings which have shamans ranging from manchurian tengrism to urals most people were tengrist but their practices differed since it had oral traditions. calling it shamanism is equal to calling christianity priestism or calling islam imamism/sheikhism. in turkic cultures shamans are called Kham
 
  • 3Like
Reactions:
I hope there's more nuance to how religions interact with each other other than simple tolerance/intolerance mechanics. Works (mostly) okay for monotheistic religions, but it IMO does every other non-monotheistic religion dirty unless they're also dogmatic and inherently intolerant of other religions. Which just wasn't the case at all for most of the world's population throughout the periods this game will cover.
 
  • 4
  • 1Like
Reactions:
Have you considered adding the Cult of Reason and Cult of the Supreme Being for the lategame? I na similar vein, there's also Din-i Ilahi in India. These projects all failed hard irl, but taking things that failed irl and making the mdominate the world is bread and butter for Paradox players.
 
  • 4Haha
  • 3Like
  • 2
Reactions: