Tinto Talks #13 - 22nd of May 2024

[FleetingRain]

Logically it's to your state religion. What sense would it make to convert heretic/heathen pops to another heretic/heathen religion? Has there been an example of this anyway? I can't imagine the Spanish conquering Mexico and then convert the locals to Islam.

Question is, if I conquer Morocco as Catholic Spain, what will happen to the Madrasas already built? Will they be closed? Destroyed? Swapped for Cathedrals? Will they still convert to Sunni if still around, or will they somehow convert people to Catholic?

 

[Ispil]

So does that mean combat for Calvinism consists of entering battle, rolling a 1, and either retreating to try again or watching your troops die for the crime of being Swiss? Because that sounds like the most frustrating thing imaginable, at least with other religions you have a chance to roll better on the next tick.

I suppose the contrary is that they could roll a 9 and just sweep, but yeah, it's... definitely a choice.

 

[tsr-aph]

Not at all related, but looking at this map, there seem to be vast swaths of ocean grouped together and "sea lanes" connecting continents. Do we have oceanic wasteland or is this WIP?

 

[xinche]

As an East Asian, the crude and neglected Eastern religions will make me not want to buy this game. No one who has studied Eastern religions will be satisfied with the Eastern religions you designed.

 

[Kiesenberg]

There are Nestorian pops in China, yes.

Will it be possible to deliberately promote the growth of a minority religion within your country?

 

[92024995]

is the fact that Sunni Islam has been basically static for the last 1400 years while Shia Islam just keeps on changing be represented?

 

[Komur]

Hellenic? Norse?

probably minority as you can see there is no jewish either.

 

[KarltheMarx]

I want to make the case for giving religion another design pass here as opposed to just additional content passes (i.e. adding more religions, separating out animist, etc.)

The EU4 religion system of distinct, static religious families with hard-coded limits/mechanics and set relations with other religions works well for a board-game-y type game, where you have 1 province = 1 religion and send out missionaries to convert provinces. This approach does not work well with the pop system. Here's why.

1) Religions historically were not static. Within a single religion, there is often immense change in norms, doctrine, rituals, relationship to politics, social conservatism, etc.

2) Abrahamic faiths just work a little bit differently than other religions. While the idea of a "religious group" is sensible enough for Christianity and Islam, it just doesn't capture the actual historical dynamics between, for example, Buddhism & Shinto, or Buddhism and Taoism and Confucian-familial-piety. The words "heretic" and "heathen" themselves are Abrahamic concepts which awkwardly translate to Eastern religions.

3) The identification of a state with a religion is a bit too hasty. States and their rules changed religion opportunistically, to signal certain continuities or discontinuities with the past. In EU4, to change religion you generally either had to use special hard coded pathways (ex. the reformation, where the need to be able to change religion is especially obvious) or cheese rebel spam.

I would propose that much more be imported from CK3 here about religion. I think CK3 gets a lot right and offers great potential for a pop system. (If you want an anti-example, it's Vic3. Vic3's culture and religion systems are among the weakest/most under-designed parts of the game. And there you see exactly a pop system merged with a static national religion, like I worry will happen here.)

- Tolerance of other religions should be an attribute of a religion, not a religious group. In CK3, families of religions set baselines tolerance toward other faiths - but the tolerance is also modified by doctrine, beliefs, and hard coded attributes. This means that Eastern religions, for example, don't view any religion as Evil in the same way that Abrahamic faiths do.

- Religions change over time. In CK3, that's represented by faith reformations, re-organizations, etc. which dynamically change the map. But I would love to see instead the possibility to change doctrines within the same religion. This could be implemented similarly to the EUIV political reform tree.

- Rulers should be able to change religion, at least within constraints. This should be costly and come with downsides, but it shouldn't be prevented by hard-coded limits.

 

[Engram]

I would like to propose the extend of catholic faith in Scandinavia be cut back just a little. The church had been established in Finland Proper, Tavastland and whatever places the Swedes inhabited on the coast, but everything north of modern day Tampere-Lahti axis should be mostly Finnic pagan. Mikkeli (back then the socken of Savolax or Savilahti) was the the sole congregation in the eastern interior at the time.

Figure 1: Sockens founded between 1220 and 1250.
Figure 2: Congregations in 1400 (light purpe) and 1600 (purple).

I also seems like Sweden's borders extend quite a bit further than they did at the time. I'm sure you know of the 1323 Treaty of Nöteborg, and while the border is more than ambiguous, the extent shown here is certainly generous. History tells us that Sweden did not levy taxes north of river Pyhäjoki during the time, which would be in accordance with most interpretations of the border at the time. At minimum, the control the Swedish crown holds over the interior should be 0 %. This, of course, is mostly due to the fact that the interior had little to no permanent residence. Finns did hunt and fish around most of the lakeland/interior, same as Sámi.

Figure 3: Interpretations of the 1323 border.
Figure 4: Swedish castles and governance of Finland in 1395.

Source: Haapala, P. p., & Toivo, R. M. t. (2007). Suomen historian kartasto. Karttakeskus.

 

[Kaspar Osraige]

I know it's very WIP, but the stripes are massive. I would like smaller stripes TBH

 

[fireandplague]

Calvinist countries will never reroll the dice in a battle, as everything is preordained.

This seems an extremely odd design choice. Don't the dice rolls just represent the fortunes of the battle, not actual dice in the context of the game world? A high roll might mean your forces were hitting every shot or rushed to the top of the knoll before the opponent, and low roll might mean all your drummers and standard bearers got hit on the first volley. That has nothing to do with what religion you are.

 

[StealCannon]

Is that a navigable great lakes :O, will it be how the Caspian is in ante bellum, where it's locked out from the ocean (with a option to build locks/canals???)

 

[Raven45]

This seems an extremely odd design choice. Don't the dice rolls just represent the fortunes of the battle, not actual dice in the context of the game world? A high roll might mean your forces were hitting every shot or rushed to the top of the knoll before the opponent, and low roll might mean all your drummers and standard bearers got hit on the first volley. That has nothing to do with what religion you are.

It’s also a somewhat meme-level understanding of what Calvinists believe about pre-destination. I assumed it was a joke in the dev diary post.

 

[Egessko]

1. Yes.
2. That's the plan.
3. No, it's set.

Regarding point 3 (answer to 'Is it possible for playesr in-game to change how we view different religions from Kindred to Enemy or is it set just like how Heretics and Heathens are set?'):

Wouldn't it make more sense to allow these 'opinions' between religions to change in a natural and dynamic way. In this way one could represent the changes in attitude between for example, the catholics and the various reformation branches of christianity from the year 1550 (more hostile) to 1750 (less hostile). Or perhaps the increased hostility towards christianity in Japan in the Edo period.

One could model this as follow: Let there be a 'hostility' value between each religion. The actions of the various member states of these religions impact this hostility in order to reduce or increase it. Examples of these actions may include: population expulsions, wars, extra tax, events etc. After some specified thresholds you could transition from ambivalent --> negative --> enemy.

 

[lukesilveira]

It’s also a somewhat meme-level understanding of what Calvinists believe about pre-destination. I assumed it was a joke in the dev diary post.

I still think it is a joke. Probably should have a disclaimer or something though

 

[meijiJPN]

The Golden Horde had just recently converted to Islam when the game starts it's impossible for them to already have converted their entire country. Also you said there would be Norse represented at the beginning of the game? Sad to see how simplistic the religion map-mode is compared to culture. Would be nice to see lines indicating there's a large minority of a faith in a province like how it is in the culture map-mode as well.

 

[Canafa]

I do hope the Alawites, Druze, and Yazidis are represented in-game, especially as all three were majority faiths in some areas in the Middle East as of 1337. The Zoroastrian group should also really be the Iranic group and include the Yazidis imo.

 

[Ispil]

I still think it is a joke. Probably should have a disclaimer or something though

Given the context and that they usually leave jokes in italics, I think it's completely sincere.

 

[Fluffy_Fishy]

Will these religions be default or will there be a bit more of a stance of religious tolerence or partial secularism making it that within some nations they don't really care about foreign religions?

As much as there was these things present during the timeframe of the game setting

 

[Averroes]

Are you considering adding special penalties for taking certain actions for religions, such as Islam and taking loans with interests which is considered to be forbidden.