Tinto Maps #3 - 24th of May 2024 - France

[Demetrios]

Take into consideration that the Duchy of Burgundy existing in 1337 is different from that rising in the 15th century, as it's not even the same dynasty governing (the House of Burgundy, under Odo IV; Philip the Bold is not even born), neither the same lands. This poses us the challenge of creating an extreme railroad to recreate the conditions of the 'rise of Burgundy' that you mention. In any case, we want to read your opinions on the matter, to make the best decision regarding the possible Burgundian content.

I mean... technically both the older and newer rulers of Burgundy were of the same dynasty, the Capetians. It's just that the original Capetian dynasty of Burgundy began in 1032, so it was only distantly related in the male line to the new Capetian(-Valois) dynasty which began its rule in Burgundy in 1363.

 

[Demetrios]

The Black prince is 6 years old at game start, I don't think he's ruling Wales t that age, and he would only be given his first command in 1347 during the Crécy campaign when he was 16, but even then it was actually William de Bohun who was in charge of the army. So I think he's a bit young for an appanage all things considered.

At game's start Edward was Duke of Cornwall (a title he gained only a few months before the start date) and Earl of Chester. He wouldn't be created Prince of Wales until 1343.

 

[Demetrios]

Where did Limoges go?

Its current ruler is the heiress to Brittany, Joanna of Penthièvre, who this year marries Charles of Blois, the second son of the current count of Blois, Guy I.

Charles of Blois was one of the two pretenders to the Breton throne (through his wife's right) in the Breton War of Succession (1341-1365), being supported by his maternal uncle, the King of France, and antagonized by the English-supported claimant, John of Montfort.


View attachment 1138162


And the Lordship of Albret should be in the map too, they became very important in politics over time.
View attachment 1138168


By the way, I don't really think the southern lords should be portrayed as vassals, they are at HRE levels of independence, they have their own wars between each other and they changed sides at times between England and France, In fact, I would say all the non Capetian vassals are at HRE levels of independence, they are only kept alligned to France through marriages, but can and have opposed the king usually.
At least the HRE has the Imperial Diets to convene and create a general imperial policy, something France doesn't have without marriages and its big crownland.

The southern vassals still admitted they were vassals, other than Béarn, which the Count of Foix successfully made independent in 1347 (but still, somewhat oddly, maintained that Foix itself was still a French vassal)

 

[Mef]

Olives are generally cured though and even if they aren't, they transport pretty well...

That may be the case, but in all the sources about trade that I've seen, the trade good that was mentioned was oil, not olives. That doesn't have to say much, but it's my impression that oil was more commonly traded than the olives it was made from.

 

[Draky]

i think it'd be cool if wastelands were stripped in all mapmodes (culture, climate, etc) so that you dont have to switch to a specific mapmode to easily see where those wastelands are

I also still think it strange that you'd only be able to see colour-coded population mapmode when inspecting a speicifc country.

what if i wanna easily see the most populous province in europe? or the world?

 

[Tahami Tsunami]

My apologies in advance if this isn't the right spot to ask this, but I'm curious about how unique France's political control is?

In Tinto Talks #12, it was mentioned how there would be IOs somewhat similar to the Holy Roman Empire like the Shogunate of Japan, the High Kingship of Ireland, etc. Conversely, I'm sure there will be more 'centralized monarchies' similar to the Iberian Kingdoms and England.

To sum it up, what I'm asking is if there are other states like France, in the middle between the centralized monarchies and IOs, that have both central crown lands and powerful vassals or is France unique in this regard in +1337?

 

[Mindel]

Take into consideration that the Duchy of Burgundy existing in 1337 is different from that rising in the 15th century, as it's not even the same dynasty governing (the House of Burgundy, under Odo IV; Philip the Bold is not even born), neither the same lands. This poses us the challenge of creating an extreme railroad to recreate the conditions of the 'rise of Burgundy' that you mention. In any case, we want to read your opinions on the matter, to make the best decision regarding the possible Burgundian content.

There should be no exceptional events trying to railroad the path of Burgundy. At all.

The rise of Valois-Burgundy came through a series of extraordinary circumstances which should be viewed, in the context of game design, as a sequence of interesting twists and turns in one particular campaign where one cunning Burgundy player took advantage of the weaknesses of its neighboring players.

Even the installation of a Valois prince as duke requires both the old Burgundian dynasty to die out at an opportune time as well as the most prominent claimant (Charles II of Navarre) to be pushed aside.

Assuming this happens, the next lucky break is for Burgundy to get a personal union over Flanders. This requires Louis of Male, the then-Count of Flanders (7 years old in 1337), to not produce any surviving male heirs. Without this Burgundy has no initial foothold in the Low Countries.

After that, perhaps the most important event for Valois-Burgundy is France falling into chaos during the reign of Charles VI the Mad, with nobody in charge. Amongst several dukes competing to fill this power vacuum and loot the royal treasury, Burgundy managed to snatch enough cash and revenues to finance its greater political ambitious in the Low Countries.

Then, after this competition escalates into open civil war, Burgundy has to avoid being overrun by the Armagnacs. For this, Burgundy can thank the very fortunate timing of Henry V, who came ashore at just the right moment to destroy the French army at Agincourt (itself a lucky outcome for him, thanks to bad French planning/strategy) that was being prepared to wreck Burgundy.

After that lucky escape, Burgundy has to navigate between the two sides of the Hundred Years War well enough to secure its own borders from attack, while at the same time avoiding any serious military commitment to either side, so that it can instead use that military to advance its interests in the Low Countries. Only with a rough stalemate between English and Armagnac forces can Burgundy establish itself as a third player in a political triangle, with enough independence and leverage to set its own agenda.

And this is not even getting into the different kinds of chicanery employed by Philip the Good to expand into the Low Countries. An expansion that would be unlikely to occur if the HRE had a strong, assertive emperor, for one thing.

Are we going to railroad all of this? There's no reason to design the game to always go in this direction in every campaign:

1) Burgundy's old line doesn't need to die out.
2) Louis of Male does not need to fail to produce a son.
3) France certainly does not need to fall into a mad reign followed by a civil war.
4) England doesn't need to resume the Hundred Years War at a moment which benefits Burgundy.
5) The HRE doesn't need to be asleep at the wheel while Burgundy is eating up the Low Countries.

Burgundy doing particularly well in one playthrough is not a reason to hardcode these results into the game. A rise of Orleans or Brittany would be just as interesting.

The real lesson that Tinto should take away from the example of Valois-Burgundy is to ask whether the game being designed is complex enough to replicate the events described above. The point is not to railroad things so it spits out these events every time, but rather to create a simulator deep enough that this kind of outcome (and similar ones) would be possible as a result of emergent gameplay.

 

[Chrysalis2112]

There should be no exceptional events trying to railroad the path of Burgundy. At all.

The rise of Valois-Burgundy came through a series of extraordinary circumstances which should be viewed, in the context of game design, as a sequence of interesting twists and turns in one particular campaign where one cunning Burgundy player took advantage of the weaknesses of its neighboring players.

Even the installation of a Valois prince as duke requires both the old Burgundian dynasty to die out at an opportune time as well as the most prominent claimant (Charles II of Navarre) to be pushed aside.

Assuming this happens, the next lucky break is for Burgundy to get a personal union over Flanders. This requires Louis of Male, the then-Count of Flanders (7 years old in 1337), to not produce any surviving male heirs. Without this Burgundy has no initial foothold in the Low Countries.

After that, perhaps the most important event for Valois-Burgundy is France falling into chaos during the reign of Charles VI the Mad, with nobody in charge. Amongst several dukes competing to fill this power vacuum and loot the royal treasury, Burgundy managed to snatch enough cash and revenues to finance its greater political ambitious in the Low Countries.

Then, after this competition escalates into open civil war, Burgundy has to avoid being overrun by the Armagnacs. For this, Burgundy can thank the very fortunate timing of Henry V who came ashore just in time to destroy the French army at Agincourt (itself a lucky outcome for him, thanks to bad French planning/strategy) that was being prepared to wreck Burgundy.

After that lucky escape, Burgundy has to navigate between the two sides of the Hundred Years War well enough to secure its own borders from attack, while at the same time avoiding any serious military commitment to either side, so that it can instead use that military to advance its interests in the Low Countries. Only with a rough stalemate between English and Armagnac forces can Burgundy establish itself as a third player in a political triangle, with enough independence and leverage to set its own agenda.

And this is not even getting into to different kinds of chicanery employed by Philip the Good to expand into the Low Countries. An expansion that would be unlikely to occur if the HRE had a strong, assertive emperor, for one thing.

Are we going to railroad all of this? There's no reason to design the game to always go in this direction in every campaign. Burgundy's old line doesn't need to die out. Louis of Male does not need to fail to produce a son. France certainly does not need to fall into a mad reign followed by a civil war. And England doesn't need to resume the Hundred Years War at a moment which benefits Burgundy. Burgundy doing particularly well in one playthrough is not a reason to hardcode these results into the game. A rise of Orleans or Brittany would be just as interesting.

The real lesson that Tinto should take away from the example of Valois-Burgundy is to ask whether the game being designed is complex enough to replicate the events described above. The point is not to railroad things so it spits out these events every time, but rather to create a simulator deep enough that this kind of outcome (and similar ones) would be possible as a result of emergent gameplay.

I second this. In our timeline, the one that won out was Burgundy. In PC, it should be completely up to fate which one(s), if any, happen to win out. It could be Foix, or Narbonnais, or any of the others plus whatever releasable ones are possible. Plus it makes that prospect of a PC Burgundy -> Lotharingia run all the much sweeter and rare.

 

[Lolnul]

About the vegetation map mode; i hope that north africa will be a bit more represented realisticly, especially Tunisia since there are a lot of vegetation and agriculture in the north and even in the "" mountainous "" regions like Jandouba which is quite known for their agriculture and cool climate. It would be really sad for the early breadbasket of the roman empire to be in that state

 

[MTGian]

The book "Classes, Estates, and Order in Early Modern Brittany" by James Collins has a section on the economy. This is from the 16th century, but could be traced back.

It uses something closer to the following regional breakdown: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viscounty_of_Léon#/media/File:France_Pays_bretons_map.svg

Cattle and horses are described as mainstays of the Breton economy.
Leon and Treguier were particularly known for their horses.
Livestock are mentioned in relation to Rennes, Dol, Saint-Malo, and Vitre. Plus a bunch of other places that I don't see on the map: Fougere, La Guerche, Chateaugiron, Bazouges, Saint-Aubin, and Liffre (I think these are all in Rennes).
In another section, livestock is stated as important to the Cornouaille economy. The fabrique of the Pleyben parish (near Quimper) in 1633-34 showed that calves ranked second, after grain, while butter came in third and pigs fourth.
Nantes had an important tanning industry. Most of the raw material came from the landes of the northern bishopric of Nantes and perhaps from Ploermel.
There is a paragraph on the obsession that Bretons have for butter. In 1568-69, 335,000 pounds of butter passed through the gate of Saint-Nicholas. This butter came from the heathlands north of the city and Central Brittany.
Brittany shipped extensive amounts of grain to Bordeaux, La Rochelle, and Iberia. There are multiple paragraphs on where wheat was grown versus rye. I couldn't really follow it. Maybe wheat was grown in the north, rye in the south?
Leon also had a thriving linen industry that was exported to England. This didn't last long though. The king banned exports to England shortly after 1680, which sent Leon into a depression.
Apple trees spread through Upper Brittany in the 16th and 17th centuries. They did not make their way into Lower Brittany until much later.
Vineyards were restricted to Nantes in the harsher climate of the late 16th century (they were more spread out previously).

"The agricultural economy of Brittany rested on grain, wine, and livestock. The regions producing these commodities had something of a symbiotic relationship. The interior landes provided meat and livestock in return for grain, wine, and salt. Nantais sold wine in return for grain from these regions - rye from the south, wheat from the north. Two regions did not fit into this agricultural framework - the westernmost bishopric of Leon and the region between Saint-Malo and Rennes. These two industrial regions exported cloth."

Hemp was an important Breton product - both woven (Locronan, Saint-Brieuc, Nantes region) and raw (north coast). In the 17th century, production shifted to flax. There is a list of textile industry towns: Rennes, Saint-Malo, Dinan, Fougeres, Vitre, Hede, Quintin, Morlaix, Lannion, and Treguier. These produced linen cloth, while Nantes produced hemp.

The small towns ringing the coasts had three major related industries: maritime commerce, fishing, and shipbuilding.

Most shipbuilding centers built ships from 20 to 40 tons displacement, but Penerf and Montoir-de-Bretange specialized in larger ships - from 50 to 70 tons.

The northern coast (Saint-Malo, Saint-Brieuc, Penerf, Brehat) sent ships to the Grand Banks in the early 16th century. Nantes eventually did as well. The southern coast (Audierne and Douarnenez) specialized in sardines.

Audierne, Penmarc'h, Penerf, and Saint-Malo were the home ports of the ships involved in the Bordeaux trade. (nothing about the ports of the ships involved in other trade - Iberia, England, etc)

And finally, in conclusion:

"Brittany had a remarkably varied economy in early modern times. It produced a wide variety of agricultural goods - different grains, livestock products, fruits (apples, pears, plums, even melons), wine, industrial crops (hemp and flax), pulses (beans were particularly widespread). It had a broad industrial base focused on textiles woven from hemp and flax. It had a thriving merchant marine and fishing industry. It had extensive international trade in textiles, wine, paper, salt, and fish."

It then goes on to say that landlords and the Crown taxed Brittany to death and destroyed all of the prosperity.

Not all of that is focused on agricultural goods, but I figured I would just do it all at once.

 

[Aart]

This poses us the challenge of creating an extreme railroad to recreate the conditions of the 'rise of Burgundy' that you mention. In any case, we want to read your opinions on the matter, to make the best decision regarding the possible Burgundian content.

Maybe it can be an optional DHE, that automatically either sets or doesn't at the start of the game? Something, like HoI4 ahistorical focuses

 

[I_have_no_ideas_for_name]

The population map becoming a heat map when you click on a country is neat, but I feel like it should always be a heat map. Would be much more readable than just a gray map full of numbers.
Also I really liked EU4's trade goods map mode which used the trade good icons instead of just writing what the trade good in a province is. Maybe you could bring it back?

 

[Caracus]

Which ones?

Regarding the region of Lotharingia heres my feedback as I wanted to comment on that too.
(Im from the next door Saarland for reference, we still carry Lotharingia on the Saarland coat of arms)

Culture Lorrain: to my understanding, the westward extend of the German Lorraine was much more extensive as the time. In german its called Lothringisch (literally lotharingian) but in English I see it referred to as "Lorraine Franconian" as a sub classification of the "Rhenish Franconian" we can already see on the map, so grouping it in there is okay (the blue stripes going over).
But you could also think about adding it in its own right if you wanted to display the struggle between French Lotharingian "Lorrain" and German Lotharingian "Lothringisch" for the more dominant position in the state as a future in the HRE would probably mean the German side winning over the historical French side when it comes to language/culture. The German "Lorraine Franconian" still had around 400k speakers after world war 2 so its still surprisingly relevant after 7 centuries https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lorraine_Franconian
To my dismay I found no further sources to substantiate my claim that the extend of the German speaking area was probably more westwards and more prominent than it is on all the maps after centuries of french control. All the ones I found from the 19th century at least match the stripey blue area of yours that comes over from "Rhenish Franconian"

Therefore for the location names that are like confirmed German or German adjacent:

Bitch -> Bitsch
Saint-Avold -> Sankt Avold
Sarrebourg-> Saarburg
Strasbourg -> Straßburg
Haguenau -> Hagenau
Longwy -> Langich
Saint-Mihiel -> Sankt Michael
Nancy -> Nanzig
Épinal -> Spinal
Mirecourt -> Muricusgut (Urso dedit praedium in Murici curte) https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirecourt
Verdun -> Verden (with river: Verden an der Maas) (middle ages Wirten/Virten) https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Verdun
Belfort -> Beffert, Beffort or Befort https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belfort (to me Beffert sounds most German)
Ferrette -> Pfirt
Montbeliard -> Mömpelgard
Baume or Baume-les-Dames -> Balma
Saint-Dié(-des-Vosges) -> Sankt Diedolt/Didel (Diedolt sounds better) https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint-Dié-des-Vosges

You can also think about Kolmar (Colmar), Mülhausen: (Mulhouse) and potentially Diedenhofen: (Thionville) for the Alsace

Thats about as far as the more popular German names for the French states go or as far as I can read it on the map at least.
This also gives probably a good indication about how far the German sphere and the German "Lorraine Franconian" probably had its relations and influence with.

Theres a lot more about the Luxemburgian as well as the Swiss area which should potentially be German but I think thats for another map DD and I gotta go xD

 

[Vispian]

I know this is a France focussed map but as since my local area Exeter is shown. I am happy to see Tin, Silver and Fish being represented here for Devon, I almost thought we would get the short end of the stick with later more modern pastoral agriculture.

However can I please ask for a change in the terrain. I love the fact you represent Dartmoor and Exmoor correctly. But Exeter and the wider East Devon area it encompasses is in no way sparse or hills. As someone who lives here but also has many relevant sources on the region, Exeter should be represented as Grasslands and Flatland. The rolling Tors and Valleys of Dartmoor do not extend this far and most of the land in this areas was relatively flat and suitable for farming (albeit sturdy grains). If you want a source from the time to back up my personal experience living here, I heavily recommend these academic works that go into the trade and geographic breakdown of Devon/Exeter at the time.

Cooke, Richard William Ingram. 2021. "Devon's Economy during the Long Fifteenth Century: Wealth, Population and Trade." Order No. 29424075, University of Exeter (United Kingdom)

and

Maryanne Kowaleski, Local Markets and Regional Trade in Medieval Exeter (Cambridge University Press, Cambridge, UK; New York;, 1995)

@SaintDaveUK

p.s. get rid of Wales as a vassal its silly (yn ddiffuant fel Cymro)

 

[NetFoley]

On the terrain map, why is "Oceanic" represented as one continuous terrain but flatland isn't for exemple ? It makes it messy to read

 

[Mef]

Next week we will move to the North-Eastern part of Europe, as we will take at look at Poland and the Baltic region. Cheers!

Question: Will this include Silesia or does that belong to a different map thread (i.e. with Bohemia)?

 

[Teutonic_Knight_2000]

I will say right away that in the case of the area of the modern borders of Poland, I count on at least the following cultural groups:

1. Polish (potential division of the Polish culture into Greater Polish and Lesser Polish could be interesting) (MUST BE)
2. Silesian (There may be two Silesian cultures: Germanic Silesian "Schlesisch" and Slavic Silesian "Ślōnskŏ") (MUST BE)
3. Pomeranian (Germanic) (MUST BE)
4. Kashubian / or Slavic Pomeranian (MUST BE)
5. Prussian (Germanic) (MUST BE)
6. Prūsai (Baltic) (MUST BE)
7. Red Ruthenians (MUST BE)
8. Sorbs (MUST BE)
9. Masovian (IT MAY BE, BUT IT DOESN'T HAVE TO BE)
10. Kuyavian (IT MAY BE, BUT IT DOESN'T HAVE TO BE)
11. Polesian (IT MAY BE, BUT IT DOESN'T HAVE TO BE)
12. Polabian (Slavic) (IT MAY BE, BUT IT DOESN'T HAVE TO BE

It would be nice if the names of provinces and locations were written in these languages.

If you want, I will be happy to help you with this

 

[Teutonic_Knight_2000]

Question: Will this include Silesia or does that belong to a different map thread (i.e. with Bohemia)?

+1

 

[poulainnoirextra]

I just spent some hours localising all the Occitan locations (including main cities), provinces, and areas. It ought to be pretty detailed, I hope.

Area: Provence - Provença

Province: Nice - This should be renamed to Draguinhanés, since it coincides better with the Seneschalty of Draguinhan (which is appropriate for the game's time period) than with the county of Niça; though, this province should not containe Niça
Nice - la Costiera de Niça; this should probably receive its own location, and since it'd be lonely with a province consisting only of Niça, Monaco should be included in this province as Mónegue.
Grasse - lo País de Grassa (the city itself is called Grassa)
Fréjus - lei Mauras (plural) (the city itself is called Frejús)
Digne - lo País de Dinha (the city itself is called Dinha)

Province: Aix-en-Provence - Bassa Provença (eng. "Lower Provença"), or simply Provença
Aix-en-Provence - lo País d'Ais; (the city itself is called Ais; the suffix, "en-Provence", would in Occitan be "de Provença", but is only used in French such that it is not confused with other places called Aix, such as Aachen)
Marseille - Marselhés (the city itself is called Marselha)
Arles - Arletés (the city itself is called Arle)
Toulon - Tolonenc (the city itself is called Tolon)

Province: Avignon - Auta Provença (eng. "Upper Provença")
Avignon - (lo Comtat) Venaicin (the name of the parçan/location); Avinhon is only the name of the city
Orange - Aurenja
Forcalquier - Forcauqueriés (the city itself is called Forcauquier)
Sisteron - Sisteronenc (the city is called Sisteron)
Barcelonette (?) - Ubaia (the main city in this pass is Barcilona, with an I; supposedly where Hannibal crossed the Alps or something)

Area: Languedoc - Lengadoc

Province: Toulouse - Legadoc Naut (eng. "Upper Lengadoc")
Toulouse - Tolosan (the city itself is called Tolosa)
L'Isle-Jourdain - l'Isla de Baish
Albi - Albigés (the city itself is called Albi)
Castres - Castrés (the city itself is called Castras)
Lavaur - la Vaur
Castelnaudary - Castèlnòu d'Arri

Province: Nîmes - Lengadoc Bas (eng. "Lower Lengadoc")
Nîmes - la Costiera de Nimes (the city is called Nimes)
Montpellier - Montpelhierenc (the city itself is called Montpelhier)
Melgueil - Melguelh
Alès - las Cevenas (plural); (the city itself is called Alès)
Uzès - Usètge (the city itself is called Usès)

Province: Viviers - Vivarés
Viviers - lo Bas Vivarés (eng. "Lower Vivarés") (the city itself is called Vivèrs)
Tournon - lo Naut Vivarés (eng. "Lower Vivarés") (the city itself is called Tornon)
Saint-Étienne - Pilat (the city itslef is called Sant Estève)
Le Puy-en-Velay - Velai (the city itself is called lo Puèi)
Mende - Gavaudan (the city itself is called Mende)

Province: Narbonne - Narbonés
Narbonne - Narbonés (the city itself is called Narbona)
Béziers - Besierés (the city itself is called Besièrs)
Saint-Pons - Menerbés (the city itself should probably be replaced with Menèrba, but it would be Sant Ponç if the city is important)
Agde - Agadés (the city itself is called Agde)
Lodève - Lodevés (the city itself is called Lodeva)

Province: Carcasonne - Carcassés
Carcasonne - Carcassés (the city itself is called Carcasona)
Pamiers - Pàmias
Mirepoix - Mirapeis
Foix - Fois
Limoux - Limós

Area: Gascony - Gasconha

Province: Auch - Armanhac
Auch - lo País d'Aush (the city is called Aush)
Lectoure - Lomanha (the city is called Leitora)
Mirande - Astarac (the city is called Mirande)
Condom - Condomés (the city is called Condòm)

Province: Muret - Bigòrra
Muret - Comenge (the city is called Murèth in Gascon and Murèl in other Òc languages)
Saint-Lizier - Savés (the city is called Sent Lisièr deu Plantèr in Gascon, Sant Lisier dau Plantier in Provençal, and Sant Lisièr dau Plantièr in Lengadocian)
Saint-Gaudens - Nebosan (the city is called Sent Gaudenç in Gascon, and Sant Gaudenç in other Òc languages)

Province: Pau - Bearn
Pau - Sovèstre (the city itself is called Pau)
Tarbes - lo País de Tarba (the city itseld is called Tarba)
Oloron - Sola (the city itself is called Auloron)

Province: Mont-de-Marsan - Albret
Mont-de-Marsan - Marsan
Bazas - Vasadés (the city itself is called Vasats)
Labrit - lo Brassens (city is called Arjusan; the parçan/location of Labrit is actually in where Nérac is on the map, which means there is a duplicated location)
Nérac - Albret (city is called Nerac)

Province: Dax - las Lanas
Dax - las Lanas de d'Acs (yes, with the contracted "de" in front of it; the city itself is called d'Acs)
Tosse - lo Maremme (the city itself is called Tòssa)
Tartas - Marensin (the city is called Tartàs)
Mimizan - Bòrn (the city itself is called Mamisan)
La Teste-de-Buch - Bug (the city itself is called la Tèsta)

Area: Guyenne - Guiana (or even Aquitània!)

Province: Bordeaux - Bordalés
Bordeaux - Bordalés (the city itself is called Bordèu)
Lesparre-Médoc - Medoc (the city is called l'Esparra)
Libourne - Libornés (the city itself is called Liborna)
[no name] - la Benauja; Cadilhac is the principal city, (yes, Cadillac as in the car, fun!) but back then, I'm fairly sure Sent Macari (Sant Macari in non-Gascon Occitan) was more important

Province: Périgord - Peiregòrd
Périgueux - Peiregòrd (the city itself would be called Peireguers)
Agen - Agenés (city is called Agen)
Bergerac - Brajairagués (city is called Brajairac)
Nontron - Nontronés (city is called Nontronh)

Province: Quercy - Carcin
Cahors - Carcin (city is called Caors)
Figeac - Limarga (the city is called Fijac)
Montauban - Montalbanés (the city is called Montalban)

Province: Roergue - Roèrgue
Rodez - Rodanés (though the city itself is called Rodés)
Villefranche - Calvinh, (the city is called Vilafranca)
Millau - Aubrac (the city is called Milhau)

Area: Auvergne - Auvèrnhe

Province: Aurillac - la Montanha
Aurillac - la Castanhau (city is called Orlhac)
Vodable - Vodabla
Mauriac - Mauriagués (city itself is called Mauriac)
Saint-Flour - Sant Flor
[no name] - Artensa (of which the principal city is Bòrt)

Province: Clermont - Limanha
Clermont - Clarmont
Riom - Riòm
Thiers - Liuradés (city is called Tièrn)
Brioude - Brivadés (principal city is Briude)
Montluçon - las Combralhas (principal city is Montluçon)

Province: Lyon - this province should be renamed to Forés, and the location of Lyon should become its own province, Lionés, as part of Dauphiné area. This ought to be fine, as Lyon was (and still is) a very powerful and important city in France.
Lyon - Lionés (principal city is named Lion)
Roanne - Roana
Beaujeu - Beljòc
Montbrison - Montbrison

Province: Bourbon - This province should not be a part of the Auvèrnhat area at all

Area: Poitou - the provinces of Limoges and Aubusson should not be part of Poitou, but rather be their own separate unit, together.

Province: Limoges - Lemòtges/Limoges is the name of a city, the province should be called Lemosin.
Limoges - Lemòtges (principal city is Lemòtges)
Rochechouart - lo País de Vinhana (the name of the city is Rechoard)
Ségur - Segur (principal city is called Segur lo Chasteu)
Tulle - lo País de Tula (principal city is called Tula)
Turenne - lo País de Briva (city is called Torèna)
Ventadour - las Monedieras (capital should be Mostier de Ventadorn)

Province: Aubusson - Should be renamed to la Marcha
Guéret - Garait
Aubusson - lo Buçon. Should be maybe be moved to the province of Clermont.
Bourganeuf - lo País de Borgonuòu (capital is Borgonuòu)
Bellac - Belac
Montmorillon - Montmaurilhonés, principal city is Montmaurilhon

Area: Dauphiné - Should be called Vianés or Daufinat in Occitan.

Province: Grenoble - Aut Vianés or Aut Daufinat
Grenoble - The modern Occitan name is Grenòble, but the contemporary name was Graçanòbol; the city should be named the same.
Gap - Gapencés
Briançon - Briançonés, though the city itself is called Briançon
Pragelato - la Val Cluson (city is called Prajalats in Valadés/Italian Occitan)

Province: Vienne - Bas Vianés or Bas Daufinat
Vienne - las Tèrras Fredas (main city is Viana)
Valence - Valentinés (main city is Valença)
Die - Diés (main city is Diá)
Saint-Marcellin - Bòsc de Chambaran (city is Sant Marcelin)

Province: Bresse - I cannot help, since I am not familiar with the local Arpitan or the literature concerning it

Province: Savoy - Again, I cannot help, for the same reason as above

I also spot Vielha, Which should probably be renamed to era Val d'Aran. The capital there is called Vielha, though.

As for the Valadas Occitanas, or "Italian Occitania":
Pinerolo - lo Pè de Montanha dal Pinairolés (capital is Pinairòl)
Susa - la Val d'Ors (capital is Suèisa)
Saluzzo - Salucés (capital is Saluças)
Cuneo - Cuneés (capital is Coni)

And that should be all! I hope this is helpful for Occitan localisation and flavorisation, and might improve some immersion while playing in the area, since it was all in French in EU4

I'm also including the txt I used to organise all the toponyms, in case the forums ruin my formattingVery

I just spent some hours localising all the Occitan locations (including main cities), provinces, and areas. It ought to be pretty detailed, I hope.

Area: Provence - Provença

Province: Nice - This should be renamed to Draguinhanés, since it coincides better with the Seneschalty of Draguinhan (which is appropriate for the game's time period) than with the county of Niça; though, this province should not containe Niça
Nice - la Costiera de Niça; this should probably receive its own location, and since it'd be lonely with a province consisting only of Niça, Monaco should be included in this province as Mónegue.
Grasse - lo País de Grassa (the city itself is called Grassa)
Fréjus - lei Mauras (plural) (the city itself is called Frejús)
Digne - lo País de Dinha (the city itself is called Dinha)

Province: Aix-en-Provence - Bassa Provença (eng. "Lower Provença"), or simply Provença
Aix-en-Provence - lo País d'Ais; (the city itself is called Ais; the suffix, "en-Provence", would in Occitan be "de Provença", but is only used in French such that it is not confused with other places called Aix, such as Aachen)
Marseille - Marselhés (the city itself is called Marselha)
Arles - Arletés (the city itself is called Arle)
Toulon - Tolonenc (the city itself is called Tolon)

Province: Avignon - Auta Provença (eng. "Upper Provença")
Avignon - (lo Comtat) Venaicin (the name of the parçan/location); Avinhon is only the name of the city
Orange - Aurenja
Forcalquier - Forcauqueriés (the city itself is called Forcauquier)
Sisteron - Sisteronenc (the city is called Sisteron)
Barcelonette (?) - Ubaia (the main city in this pass is Barcilona, with an I; supposedly where Hannibal crossed the Alps or something)

Area: Languedoc - Lengadoc

Province: Toulouse - Legadoc Naut (eng. "Upper Lengadoc")
Toulouse - Tolosan (the city itself is called Tolosa)
L'Isle-Jourdain - l'Isla de Baish
Albi - Albigés (the city itself is called Albi)
Castres - Castrés (the city itself is called Castras)
Lavaur - la Vaur
Castelnaudary - Castèlnòu d'Arri

Province: Nîmes - Lengadoc Bas (eng. "Lower Lengadoc")
Nîmes - la Costiera de Nimes (the city is called Nimes)
Montpellier - Montpelhierenc (the city itself is called Montpelhier)
Melgueil - Melguelh
Alès - las Cevenas (plural); (the city itself is called Alès)
Uzès - Usètge (the city itself is called Usès)

Province: Viviers - Vivarés
Viviers - lo Bas Vivarés (eng. "Lower Vivarés") (the city itself is called Vivèrs)
Tournon - lo Naut Vivarés (eng. "Lower Vivarés") (the city itself is called Tornon)
Saint-Étienne - Pilat (the city itslef is called Sant Estève)
Le Puy-en-Velay - Velai (the city itself is called lo Puèi)
Mende - Gavaudan (the city itself is called Mende)

Province: Narbonne - Narbonés
Narbonne - Narbonés (the city itself is called Narbona)
Béziers - Besierés (the city itself is called Besièrs)
Saint-Pons - Menerbés (the city itself should probably be replaced with Menèrba, but it would be Sant Ponç if the city is important)
Agde - Agadés (the city itself is called Agde)
Lodève - Lodevés (the city itself is called Lodeva)

Province: Carcasonne - Carcassés
Carcasonne - Carcassés (the city itself is called Carcasona)
Pamiers - Pàmias
Mirepoix - Mirapeis
Foix - Fois
Limoux - Limós

Area: Gascony - Gasconha

Province: Auch - Armanhac
Auch - lo País d'Aush (the city is called Aush)
Lectoure - Lomanha (the city is called Leitora)
Mirande - Astarac (the city is called Mirande)
Condom - Condomés (the city is called Condòm)

Province: Muret - Bigòrra
Muret - Comenge (the city is called Murèth in Gascon and Murèl in other Òc languages)
Saint-Lizier - Savés (the city is called Sent Lisièr deu Plantèr in Gascon, Sant Lisier dau Plantier in Provençal, and Sant Lisièr dau Plantièr in Lengadocian)
Saint-Gaudens - Nebosan (the city is called Sent Gaudenç in Gascon, and Sant Gaudenç in other Òc languages)

Province: Pau - Bearn
Pau - Sovèstre (the city itself is called Pau)
Tarbes - lo País de Tarba (the city itseld is called Tarba)
Oloron - Sola (the city itself is called Auloron)

Province: Mont-de-Marsan - Albret
Mont-de-Marsan - Marsan
Bazas - Vasadés (the city itself is called Vasats)
Labrit - lo Brassens (city is called Arjusan; the parçan/location of Labrit is actually in where Nérac is on the map, which means there is a duplicated location)
Nérac - Albret (city is called Nerac)

Province: Dax - las Lanas
Dax - las Lanas de d'Acs (yes, with the contracted "de" in front of it; the city itself is called d'Acs)
Tosse - lo Maremme (the city itself is called Tòssa)
Tartas - Marensin (the city is called Tartàs)
Mimizan - Bòrn (the city itself is called Mamisan)
La Teste-de-Buch - Bug (the city itself is called la Tèsta)

Area: Guyenne - Guiana (or even Aquitània!)

Province: Bordeaux - Bordalés
Bordeaux - Bordalés (the city itself is called Bordèu)
Lesparre-Médoc - Medoc (the city is called l'Esparra)
Libourne - Libornés (the city itself is called Liborna)
[no name] - la Benauja; Cadilhac is the principal city, (yes, Cadillac as in the car, fun!) but back then, I'm fairly sure Sent Macari (Sant Macari in non-Gascon Occitan) was more important

Province: Périgord - Peiregòrd
Périgueux - Peiregòrd (the city itself would be called Peireguers)
Agen - Agenés (city is called Agen)
Bergerac - Brajairagués (city is called Brajairac)
Nontron - Nontronés (city is called Nontronh)

Province: Quercy - Carcin
Cahors - Carcin (city is called Caors)
Figeac - Limarga (the city is called Fijac)
Montauban - Montalbanés (the city is called Montalban)

Province: Roergue - Roèrgue
Rodez - Rodanés (though the city itself is called Rodés)
Villefranche - Calvinh, (the city is called Vilafranca)
Millau - Aubrac (the city is called Milhau)

Area: Auvergne - Auvèrnhe

Province: Aurillac - la Montanha
Aurillac - la Castanhau (city is called Orlhac)
Vodable - Vodabla
Mauriac - Mauriagués (city itself is called Mauriac)
Saint-Flour - Sant Flor
[no name] - Artensa (of which the principal city is Bòrt)

Province: Clermont - Limanha
Clermont - Clarmont
Riom - Riòm
Thiers - Liuradés (city is called Tièrn)
Brioude - Brivadés (principal city is Briude)
Montluçon - las Combralhas (principal city is Montluçon)

Province: Lyon - this province should be renamed to Forés, and the location of Lyon should become its own province, Lionés, as part of Dauphiné area. This ought to be fine, as Lyon was (and still is) a very powerful and important city in France.
Lyon - Lionés (principal city is named Lion)
Roanne - Roana
Beaujeu - Beljòc
Montbrison - Montbrison

Province: Bourbon - This province should not be a part of the Auvèrnhat area at all

Area: Poitou - the provinces of Limoges and Aubusson should not be part of Poitou, but rather be their own separate unit, together.

Province: Limoges - Lemòtges/Limoges is the name of a city, the province should be called Lemosin.
Limoges - Lemòtges (principal city is Lemòtges)
Rochechouart - lo País de Vinhana (the name of the city is Rechoard)
Ségur - Segur (principal city is called Segur lo Chasteu)
Tulle - lo País de Tula (principal city is called Tula)
Turenne - lo País de Briva (city is called Torèna)
Ventadour - las Monedieras (capital should be Mostier de Ventadorn)

Province: Aubusson - Should be renamed to la Marcha
Guéret - Garait
Aubusson - lo Buçon. Should be maybe be moved to the province of Clermont.
Bourganeuf - lo País de Borgonuòu (capital is Borgonuòu)
Bellac - Belac
Montmorillon - Montmaurilhonés, principal city is Montmaurilhon

Area: Dauphiné - Should be called Vianés or Daufinat in Occitan.

Province: Grenoble - Aut Vianés or Aut Daufinat
Grenoble - The modern Occitan name is Grenòble, but the contemporary name was Graçanòbol; the city should be named the same.
Gap - Gapencés
Briançon - Briançonés, though the city itself is called Briançon
Pragelato - la Val Cluson (city is called Prajalats in Valadés/Italian Occitan)

Province: Vienne - Bas Vianés or Bas Daufinat
Vienne - las Tèrras Fredas (main city is Viana)
Valence - Valentinés (main city is Valença)
Die - Diés (main city is Diá)
Saint-Marcellin - Bòsc de Chambaran (city is Sant Marcelin)

Province: Bresse - I cannot help, since I am not familiar with the local Arpitan or the literature concerning it

Province: Savoy - Again, I cannot help, for the same reason as above

I also spot Vielha, Which should probably be renamed to era Val d'Aran. The capital there is called Vielha, though.

As for the Valadas Occitanas, or "Italian Occitania":
Pinerolo - lo Pè de Montanha dal Pinairolés (capital is Pinairòl)
Susa - la Val d'Ors (capital is Suèisa)
Saluzzo - Salucés (capital is Saluças)
Cuneo - Cuneés (capital is Coni)

And that should be all! I hope this is helpful for Occitan localisation and flavorisation, and might improve some immersion while playing in the area, since it was all in French in EU4

I'm also including the txt I used to organise all the toponyms, in case the forums ruin my formatting

Hey, very good job ! Just a tiny mistake : you call the Millau region in Rouergue as "Aubrac". It’s incorrect, since the Aubrac mountains are actually north of it, at the meeting point of Aurillac, Gévaudan and Rouergue provinces.
You should call it simply "Milhavés", with "Milhau" as the capital.

 

[_Victrix]

Don't know if this was made on purpose, but the population within the french kingdom seems inacurate with historical knwoledge.

Actualy, i made the addition of evry french subject on the map and it made a total about 7.6 million people. The king's domaine representing 5.6 millions, we do have about 13.2 million people living in the kingdom.

What's really interesting is that, as Philippe VI took over the crown in France in 1328, they made a quite unique census for fiscal purpose that is called "état des paroisses et des feux" or "state of the parish and the fireplace (as a place where a group of people is leaving together, within the same fire)". It isn't a census about the amout of people, but we can easly estimate the number of people in one fireplace and extend to the number of fireplace.
The census come to 2.5 million fireplaces within the kingdom (the king's domaine + part of vassals domaine where king's envoyes where allowed to do so). And historian stated about 4.8 people per fireplace.
So :
2 500 000 x 4.8 = 12 000 000

But As i said, census was'nt made in the entire kingdom, some vassals of the french king did not allowed the census in their domain. As extend, historians said that about a third of the kingdom was'nt taken account for the census, and that we can easly estimate the amount of the population of the entire kingdom by adding a third to the previous amount.

Then it comes to 16 000 000 people living in the kingdom. That is the most accurate estimation of people living in the french kingdom in 1328. It should not have changed significantly in 1337.

So, should'nt the amount of the french population be about 16 000 000 instead of 13 200 000 as we can see it in the picture ? Or did about 3 000 000 french people will be totally forgotten to the delight of the English ?