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Tinto Talks #15 - June 5th 2024

Welcome to the 15th Tinto Talks, where we ask for feedback on our extremely crazily top secret game which has the codename Project Caesar.

One thing that many have asked for has been a more in-depth dynastical gameplay, so here it is.

Characters
Before we delve into the dynamics of dynastic gameplay, we must first talk about their building blocks, the characters.

european (1).jpg


Here is a European King with an early 18th century background.

While not copying the Crusader Kings mechanics, a Character in Project Caesar is a bit more alive than in let's say EU4. A character is born, lives, and eventually dies.

Every character has Administrative, Diplomatic and Military Attributes ranging from 0-100. Of course, these attributes will not add any sort of mana, but they will impact how well the character will perform certain roles. One example is that the diplomatic ability of an admiral impacts the morale of the navy he leads.

Newborn characters start with 0, but that grows until they are adults depending on what childhood trait they have. You can also assign your rulers’ children and grandchildren a specific education during their childhood

gifted.png

This is a trait that when on the heir of the player it increases the chance of hunting accidents by 200%.

Characters ruling a country will gain up to 3 traits, depending on how long they have ruled.
They are gained while ruling a country. Characters that are generals or admirals will also get traits after combat. There are also unique traits for characters that are REDACTED or OTHER_SECRET_THING.

Characters also have a culture they come from, a religion they follow, they keep track of where they were born, and where they currently are living. They belong to an estate, which for most characters tends to be the nobles estate.

Many characters will have a father and/or a mother as well. For some historical characters at the start of the game that will not necessarily be true.

The number of spouse(s) a character can have depends on religions and laws, but the number of children they get depends more on the fertility of the parents.

So what can you do with characters? Well, this is not Crusader Kings, so the characters themselves are not as important, and there are no character specific events like in Imperator either. In this game, characters are tools to be used for the greater good. If that means marrying off your daughter to secure an alliance with France, then that's what you have to do. You can arrange marriages in your country, send less useful characters into convents, ennoble great people, and much more.
ashanti (1).jpg


This is an African ruler, in his throne room, which while beautiful, is just a background image…


Speaking of marriages, royal marriages in Project Caesar are not just sending a diplomat, here it is far more limited, as you have to actually marry real characters, and often this is a vital action. If you can’t arrange a royal marriage with a country of enough prestige, that has a young consort, you may be forced to marry a local noble from your country, or worse, even a lowborn.

A Royal Marriage between two rulers will immediately form a union between those two countries. Every country has its own inheritance laws, which if they differ, may cause a Union to break, as the rulers would be different. This is probably not the audience where I need to explain the difference between Salic Law and Semi-Salic Law right?


bjälbo.png

And who was the founder of this dynasty?

Dynasties are important, as they impact diplomacy in direct and indirect ways. As some inheritance laws prefer their own dynasty, and having the same dynasty can improve opinions between countries.


As in almost all previous GSG, the game will keep track of who has ruled that country before, just so you can go back and admire them. We have tried to get in as much history as possible here, even if my heathen content designers refuse to have Odin as the original King of Sweden!

ruler_history.png

Of course regnal numbering and actual names depend on many different things..


Stay tuned, next week we’ll be back and we will then talk about how the cabinet will work.
 

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Some of the dinastic choices seem a bit inconsistent, in Castille you have positioned the d'Ivrée dinasty even though no king of Castille went with such surname, they instead went with "de Borgoña". Now, the "de Borgoña" line was a caddet branch of the de Ivrea house, that's true but the same is true for the "de Valois" dinasty in France (which was a cadet branch of the Capet dinasty) and they are represented by the dinastic name they went by.
Similarly I take issue with the aragonese dinastic name being "d'Aragó" instead of "de Barcelona" the kings of Aragón were of the same dinasty that the counts of Barcelona had been, so I see no good reason to change the name.
 
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Now that characters are a thing, does this mean we won't find ourselves facing a personal union when our heir dies in a hunting accident, despite having a dozen royal marriages and fifty years to create a new one?
 
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I hate 3d character portraits. I dont want this game to be anything like ck3, vicky 3 or Imperator. but I keep seeing more similarities to them then an actual successor to Europa Universalis
The game will be very close to Imperator, which itself was the spiritual successor to EU:Rome, deriving from EU mechanics.
Well, honestly, my own interest for Project Caesar went down by a notch with today's talk, and, alas, can't say I'm that surprised. I agree with the fellow forumites who hope(d?) "Caesar" will be an actual successor for Europa Universalis (and I play the game since 2001) and not just a product with the same approach that Paradox is following with Vic 3 and CK 3. I just hope that the "characters" might be turned off in the options and the rest of the game lives up to the expectations. If not, well, everything comes to an end :)
That seems dramatic, especially since there isn't any more character stuff than EU4 going on. Just mod the portraits out
 
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The game will be very close to Imperator, which itself was the spiritual successor to EU:Rome, deriving from EU mechanics.

That seems dramatic, especially since there isn't any more character stuff than EU4 going on. Just mod the portraits out
Truth be told, I like Imperator very much, by the way. Concerning "Caesar", I hope you'll be right. That's why I said that I'd gladly disregard the character nonsense if the rest of the game is good - there's always the possibility to put them out... provided that there aren't mechanics or other stuff attached to them, down the road, which honestly would not surprise me. But I'll be glad if I'm proven wrong :)
 
What about Matilda and Louis in that ruling history of England? There's an awful lot of coups and civil wars and not much in the way of legitimate heirs inheriting in that list. Does the player get to choose which side they take in situations like Robert vs William, Robert vs Henry, Stephen vs Matilda, the sons of Henry vs Henry and vs one another, Louis vs John, Edward vs. Edward?
 
Well, as a Hungarian, I look forward to be able to play the House of Anjou, they were extremely successful kings for us and they are descended from House Árpád matrilineally. (hope it's referenced in-game) Although after seeing the dynasty map in large, I was disappointed with you going to name the Angevin Capetian branch House Anjou-Naples, it is extremely ahistorical and inconsistent, you named this house "d'Anjou" in CK2, in EUIV, but now you choose this immersion-breaking name, pls change it back...

If you are worried about the Angevin cadets, the Durazzo and Taranto branches, you can just name those "de Durazzo" and "de Tarente". (or whatever the French spelling is for Taranto) The Valois line of the dukes of Anjou, if they ever appear, could be the House of "Valois-Anjou", at the start, the House of Anjou would be the only d'Anjou noble dynasty, pls revert to that naming that you've correctly used before. You could play around with CoAs, if your engine allows that, the Neapolitan line and the Hungarian line could have different historical CoAs, but that is definitely not a main issue, naming is, please do the House of Anjou justice!
 
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Wait did I read it right? If I (france) marry of one of the daughters of the king of France to, say, the duke of Austria (who is currently unmarried) I get a union over Austria??
Now I understand unions are a little less powerful in this game, but to me a union is when two coutries end up with the same ruler(s), take Charles V, Isabella of Castille and Ferdinand of Aragon, or literally the entire history of the Habsburgs.
I don't think that just because a member of the french royal family is the duchess of Austria, there should be a union between the two countries, it doesn't seem to me like the same situation.
Now it would be cool if royal marriages rappresented a powerful but risky diplomatic tool: you basically exchange a potential claim on your throne for an alliance. It could even be complemented by a little espionage: say the duke of Austria wants the french crown; he might be able to get it by manipulating the french succession: oh no the second oldest male son of the french king died! Oh no so did the oldest daughter! Let's hope nothing happens to the eldest son or the crown would technically go to the duchess of Austria! (Now I don't know the succession laws in France at the time but you get the picture)

TL;DR: Royal marriages shouldn't immediatly form a union (unless two rulers marry); they should be a tool to form a strong alliance (as long as the marriage holds) and to have the chance to get your dynasty (or potentially even your own ruler) on the other throne.

Edit: Ok I am stupid, it does say royal marriage between two rulers.
 
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Considering this change in the name of the dynasty, I have some questions about the house's relationship with the "main branch".
Will the houses of Borgonha and Burgundy be considered to be the same dynasty, but just have different naming?
Or could they be treated as some sort of branch, so they would be essentially different houses but have a close relationship or some sort of unique bond feature for this type of situations?
Having all of this said, I am aware that the game isn't meant to have a very deep or very complex dynastic system as in other titles like Crusader Kings, since it's not the point of the game, rather, just one of the features to make it more realistic or "falvorful".
 
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Multiple children? That's great. Always hated how in EU4 if our heir dies we're left in a predicament if our ruler is 60+ years old. I hope you guys add in heir disputes that leads to civil wars and also assassination attempts. There is a lot of potential for characters. Also, how will you guys handle the Ottoman Empire post Mehmed II. He legalised fratricide; the killing of brothers. From his reign until 1603, whenever someone ascended to the throne they would have their brothers executed. After 1603 under the reign of Ahmed I, he outlawed fratricide and replaced it with house arrest.
 
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Welcome to the 15th Tinto Talks, where we ask for feedback on our extremely crazily top secret game which has the codename Project Caesar.

One thing that many have asked for has been a more in-depth dynastical gameplay, so here it is.

Characters
Before we delve into the dynamics of dynastic gameplay, we must first talk about their building blocks, the characters.

View attachment 1144136

Here is a European King with an early 18th century background.

While not copying the Crusader Kings mechanics, a Character in Project Caesar is a bit more alive than in let's say EU4. A character is born, lives, and eventually dies.

Every character has Administrative, Diplomatic and Military Attributes ranging from 0-100. Of course, these attributes will not add any sort of mana, but they will impact how well the character will perform certain roles. One example is that the diplomatic ability of an admiral impacts the morale of the navy he leads.

Newborn characters start with 0, but that grows until they are adults depending on what childhood trait they have. You can also assign your rulers’ children and grandchildren a specific education during their childhood

View attachment 1144137
This is a trait that when on the heir of the player it increases the chance of hunting accidents by 200%.

Characters ruling a country will gain up to 3 traits, depending on how long they have ruled.
They are gained while ruling a country. Characters that are generals or admirals will also get traits after combat. There are also unique traits for characters that are REDACTED or OTHER_SECRET_THING.

Characters also have a culture they come from, a religion they follow, they keep track of where they were born, and where they currently are living. They belong to an estate, which for most characters tends to be the nobles estate.

Many characters will have a father and/or a mother as well. For some historical characters at the start of the game that will not necessarily be true.

The number of spouse(s) a character can have depends on religions and laws, but the number of children they get depends more on the fertility of the parents.

So what can you do with characters? Well, this is not Crusader Kings, so the characters themselves are not as important, and there are no character specific events like in Imperator either. In this game, characters are tools to be used for the greater good. If that means marrying off your daughter to secure an alliance with France, then that's what you have to do. You can arrange marriages in your country, send less useful characters into convents, ennoble great people, and much more.
View attachment 1144138

This is an African ruler, in his throne room, which while beautiful, is just a background image…


Speaking of marriages, royal marriages in Project Caesar are not just sending a diplomat, here it is far more limited, as you have to actually marry real characters, and often this is a vital action. If you can’t arrange a royal marriage with a country of enough prestige, that has a young consort, you may be forced to marry a local noble from your country, or worse, even a lowborn.

A Royal Marriage between two rulers will immediately form a union between those two countries. Every country has its own inheritance laws, which if they differ, may cause a Union to break, as the rulers would be different. This is probably not the audience where I need to explain the difference between Salic Law and Semi-Salic Law right?


View attachment 1144139
And who was the founder of this dynasty?

Dynasties are important, as they impact diplomacy in direct and indirect ways. As some inheritance laws prefer their own dynasty, and having the same dynasty can improve opinions between countries.


As in almost all previous GSG, the game will keep track of who has ruled that country before, just so you can go back and admire them. We have tried to get in as much history as possible here, even if my heathen content designers refuse to have Odin as the original King of Sweden!

View attachment 1144142
Of course regnal numbering and actual names depend on many different things..


Stay tuned, next week we’ll be back and we will then talk about how the cabinet will work.
Why does Novgorod has a Rurikovich dynasty? They invite to rule, yet it is not dynastic. It has a veche over all, after all.
 
I really hope the mention of administrative, diplomatic, and military skills does not mean that technology in PC will just be the same boring linear tree as exists in EUIV. Please make technology a deep and interesting part of the game allowing the player to influence the path of their country by the technological path they chart.
 
I love the look of the characters! Question about the African picture, I noticed while hovering over it that is labeled as "ashanti (1)" rather than "african (1)". Does this mean something about it (the clothes or background) is unique to ashanti? Or is it meant to represent the broader Coastal West Africa region, or the whole of West Africa? It'd be awesome to get a good mix of different regional styles
The background certainly was (think that prior to the federation there were lots of stools/thrones)
 
There is a thread with general opinion that people here doesn't like 3d characters. And I am deeply sad that it wasn't taken into account.
I am not a fan of how 3d characters are looking here.
Their style kinda bug me out, as it seems historical characters use contemporary to the current ruler clothes, but that may be a feature, not a bug

And I surely love the 3D here
 
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TL;DR: Royal marriages shouldn't immediatly form a union (unless two rulers marry); they should be a tool to form a strong alliance (as long as the marriage holds) and to have the chance to get your dynasty (or potentially even your own ruler) on the other throne.
They don't always, only when two rulers marry. Which I think is gonna be pretty rare. In your example, marrying the French princess to the Duke of Austria doesn't result in a union.
 
Is it possible to opt out or mod out the 3d Characters? I'm not against them, I think they are more fit for CK since that game main thing have always been dynasties (and always had char portraits), while in my opinion europa universalis is a tad different, and in general full screen 3d chars give me a Civilization vibe which i do not personally enjoy in europa universalis.
I also do not want them to be removed if there are people who enjoy them, but if there was a chance to opt out of that feature i'd enjoy the game way more, it's a matter of pace of the game and i'm thinking a bit ahead, when i'll have 2000+ hours in the game maybe i'll not enjoy them anymore, so if devs are considering to make it possible to deactivate 3d chars or even just not making them full screen and have an option for them to be integrated in the UI so that they don't become an hinderance, it would make the whole game more sleek and practical/fluid (as it has always been vs civilization, at least for me).
 
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