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Tinto Maps #5 - 7th of June 2024 - Italy

Hello everyone, and welcome to the fifth Tinto Maps! This week we will be sharing the map of Italy.

One comment before we start: we know that you might be eager to discuss other regions that may appear partially on the DD, such as the Balkans. Let’s try to keep the conversations separated in different threads, please; every region will get its own Tinto Maps, and we will show them and gather feedback in due time, in their own DD.

With that said, let’s start!:

Countries
Countries.jpg

The situation of Italy in 1337 is quite interesting. The main power in the peninsula is the Kingdom of Naples, ruled by King Robert I, who is also ruler of Provence, and a few minor countries in Northern Italy; his efforts towards the domination of Italy also made him the leader of the Guelph faction in Italy, which backs the Pope. Speaking of him, the seat of the Curia is at Avignon, and regaining control over the Papal States and moving it back to Rome might take some time and effort. Opposite to all of them, there is the Ghibelline faction, led by the Signoria of Milan, ruled by the Visconti dynasty. They are backed by other important powers in the Italian region, such as the Superb Republic of Genoa, or the Duchy of Verona, ruled by the dynasty of della Scala. There are also neutral powers, like the Republics of Venice or Siena, although they could be attracted to join one of the factions. And we also have foreign powers that have already set a foothold in Italy, such as the Crown of Aragon, which has established a branch of its dynasty as Kings of Sicilia, while also recently conquering some lands in Sardinia.

g&gs.png

Guelphs.jpg

Ghibellines.jpg

Guelphs and Ghibellines factions! They are International Organizations part of a Situation.

Dynasties
dynasties.png


Locations
Locations.jpg

There is an interesting density in Italy, especially in the North, where there are plenty of communes - the Italian city-states. You might also notice something a bit different from previous Paradox GSGs: Venice is not an island, but the location has lands around the lagoon. We aren’t 100% sure that this will be the final design, as we have a few ideas to try to keep its special position on an island inside the lagoon while addressing the issue of it being too small to appear in the map; in this regard, we’re open about feedback and ideas on the topic.

Provinces
Provinces.jpg

Any naming suggestions about the provinces are well-received, as usual.

Terrain
Climate.jpg

Topography.jpg

Vegetation.jpg

Three usual terrain layers. Something that I want to comment on is that we’ve been following this thread about ‘Revising Flatlands and hills’, and we are trying to get a bit more granularity in the Topographical map with the help of @SulphurAeron .

Cultures
Cultures.jpg

Italy is also a region with a sharp cultural division, and also plenty of minorities; although they don’t appear on the map, there are Italki Jews, or Greek and Albanian people in the South, among others.

Religions
Religion.jpg

Another boring region, with more than 90% of the population being Catholic, with most of the religious minorities being Italkim Jews and Orthodox Greeks. We're considering implementing Waldensians, although adding more diverging Catholic heresies/confessions is a bit of a low priority for us right now. As a side note, it might catch your eye the Krstjani of Bosnia; we’ll discuss them later on, in the Tinto Maps devoted to the Balkans.

Raw Goods
Raw Goods.jpg

Italy is a rich region with plenty of interesting raw materials.

Markets
Markets.jpg

There are three market centers in Italy: Genoa, Venice, and Naples (which was a very, very rich country in 1337, the wealthiest of the region). As usual, take into account that. 1. We don't script in the setup which locations belong to each market, they're automatically assigned to each market. 2. This starting distribution is not final, and it might change, as we do tweaks to the market access calculations over time.

Population
Pops Countries.jpg

Pops Locations.png

There is around 10.5M population in the Italian region as of now. Taking into account how divided the political landscape is, Naples looks scary…

And that’s all for this week! For the next one, we will be talking about the British Isles, with @SaintDaveUK . See you!
 
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Can you explain why there is rice being produced in northen italy? didn't know there was even rice back then in europe? a quick google sreach tells me they only started cultuvating in 1468. ( in Vercelli en Lomello )
 
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The main problem for San Marino is the size, as it also happens with Monaco. To put it in context, Andorra is almost 8 times the size of San Marino, and 230 times the size of Monaco.
I think I have a solution to the problem. All locations will be divided into 200 to 500 villages and towns and the map will be enlarged accordingly. Then you could depict Monnacco, San Marino and Venice as islands in the lagoon without any problems, right?

You don't have to thank me for the idea, a huge gold statue in front of the Paradox Tinto Studio is enough.
 
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IMG_7576.jpeg

To small to represented as island?
Just make that big island under it Venice location and it will have same size as another location indicated.
 
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What's your source on Italo Albanians? Everything I've read says that those migrations only started when the Ottomans started raiding heavily into Epirus
Which while a lot earlier than some people saying that in only started when the Ottomans conquered Albania proper, it is still decades after game start.
Also I repeat, Sicily and southern Naples need more Greeks.
 
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Don't expect the different regions of the world to have the same density, as they all are different. In Europe, the densest regions are Germany and Italy, which we think makes sense, mainly for historical reasons. Also, take into account that population is an important factor in making countries powerful.
What about Krain = Slovenia? They seem to have the Balkan density but actually were as splintered as the rest of the HRE:
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And also Freising held some small territories within the duchy
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For more info, you can check out my thread: https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...tria-bavaria-bohemia-swabia-and-more.1679998/
 
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Have you considered sub-dividing the climate types a little bit? For example, I imagine that Belarus or Russia would have for more severe winters than Hungary or Bohemia, and yet they are all simply classified as "continental".. I really hope that the climate will have a significant and 'felt' impact on the game, yet I worry that the current climate categories are too simplistic for that as of now.. but stuff like having frozen rivers and harbours in the winter(which was common in eastern Europe more so than western Europe) is something that I think should be part of the game.
Any thoughts?
 
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Although this may seem like a trivial issue, I’ve noticed that the impassable regions of the Alps are not colored to match the surrounding countries, even though some parts are completely surrounded by a single country. This might be due to these impassable regions being designated under the same location. I’m wondering if this could be resolved in the future? For instance, could the discontinuous impassable regions be designated to multiple separate locations?
This is a selectable option just like in EU4 to see wasteland become colored or not, the devs seem to prefer the option of Wastelands not getting colored
 
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Hi, I am still impressed by the great work done :)

Do you already have a map mode where culture groups can be visualised in the same colour like in EU4 ? Could be interesting for previous TM also.
I am wondering how that Map mode would show locations with significant cultural minorities : stripes only for minorities from a different culture group ?
 
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I totally agree on the problem of venice not being rapresented as island, the ability of controlling the lagun with its nave was what saved Venice in many occasion during history, and allowed the city to grow and become the power house it should be
 
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I also noticed that but given population density and how split Italy was at that time (and for centuries) I'd say that's fair.

Italy also noticeably more location dense than other areas such as France or Iberia, so i'd also say it's fair.

There is already a noticeable difference between the North and the South. And the north is one of the more population dense areas in all of Europe - esp relative to its time.
 
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1) Nivolet Pass

View attachment 1145044

Is this pass supposed to be the Nivolet? To my knowledge no army has ever taken this pass to cross the Alps, especially since the first road was built in the 20th century for tourism. The north slope is like this:

View attachment 1145045
View attachment 1145047
In my opinion this connection should not exist
Yep, I wrote about this in the France thread here and here.

I'm working on another post about all the Alpine passes shown in this map. Some locations there are also weird, like Locarno which is way north of the actual town of Locarno.
 
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Why is Milan with the Ghibellines, Milan it's the model anti-empire city. They even founded the city of Alessandria in honour of Pope Alexander
The Times They Are A-Changin'... Matteo Visconti was an important member of the Ghibelline party when Emperor Henry VII entered Italy, and his successors, Galeazzo and Azzone, also had to face their Guelph enemies, the Della Torre dynasty, and Pope John XXII.
 
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