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Tinto Maps #5 - 7th of June 2024 - Italy

Hello everyone, and welcome to the fifth Tinto Maps! This week we will be sharing the map of Italy.

One comment before we start: we know that you might be eager to discuss other regions that may appear partially on the DD, such as the Balkans. Let’s try to keep the conversations separated in different threads, please; every region will get its own Tinto Maps, and we will show them and gather feedback in due time, in their own DD.

With that said, let’s start!:

Countries
Countries.jpg

The situation of Italy in 1337 is quite interesting. The main power in the peninsula is the Kingdom of Naples, ruled by King Robert I, who is also ruler of Provence, and a few minor countries in Northern Italy; his efforts towards the domination of Italy also made him the leader of the Guelph faction in Italy, which backs the Pope. Speaking of him, the seat of the Curia is at Avignon, and regaining control over the Papal States and moving it back to Rome might take some time and effort. Opposite to all of them, there is the Ghibelline faction, led by the Signoria of Milan, ruled by the Visconti dynasty. They are backed by other important powers in the Italian region, such as the Superb Republic of Genoa, or the Duchy of Verona, ruled by the dynasty of della Scala. There are also neutral powers, like the Republics of Venice or Siena, although they could be attracted to join one of the factions. And we also have foreign powers that have already set a foothold in Italy, such as the Crown of Aragon, which has established a branch of its dynasty as Kings of Sicilia, while also recently conquering some lands in Sardinia.

g&gs.png

Guelphs.jpg

Ghibellines.jpg

Guelphs and Ghibellines factions! They are International Organizations part of a Situation.

Dynasties
dynasties.png


Locations
Locations.jpg

There is an interesting density in Italy, especially in the North, where there are plenty of communes - the Italian city-states. You might also notice something a bit different from previous Paradox GSGs: Venice is not an island, but the location has lands around the lagoon. We aren’t 100% sure that this will be the final design, as we have a few ideas to try to keep its special position on an island inside the lagoon while addressing the issue of it being too small to appear in the map; in this regard, we’re open about feedback and ideas on the topic.

Provinces
Provinces.jpg

Any naming suggestions about the provinces are well-received, as usual.

Terrain
Climate.jpg

Topography.jpg

Vegetation.jpg

Three usual terrain layers. Something that I want to comment on is that we’ve been following this thread about ‘Revising Flatlands and hills’, and we are trying to get a bit more granularity in the Topographical map with the help of @SulphurAeron .

Cultures
Cultures.jpg

Italy is also a region with a sharp cultural division, and also plenty of minorities; although they don’t appear on the map, there are Italki Jews, or Greek and Albanian people in the South, among others.

Religions
Religion.jpg

Another boring region, with more than 90% of the population being Catholic, with most of the religious minorities being Italkim Jews and Orthodox Greeks. We're considering implementing Waldensians, although adding more diverging Catholic heresies/confessions is a bit of a low priority for us right now. As a side note, it might catch your eye the Krstjani of Bosnia; we’ll discuss them later on, in the Tinto Maps devoted to the Balkans.

Raw Goods
Raw Goods.jpg

Italy is a rich region with plenty of interesting raw materials.

Markets
Markets.jpg

There are three market centers in Italy: Genoa, Venice, and Naples (which was a very, very rich country in 1337, the wealthiest of the region). As usual, take into account that. 1. We don't script in the setup which locations belong to each market, they're automatically assigned to each market. 2. This starting distribution is not final, and it might change, as we do tweaks to the market access calculations over time.

Population
Pops Countries.jpg

Pops Locations.png

There is around 10.5M population in the Italian region as of now. Taking into account how divided the political landscape is, Naples looks scary…

And that’s all for this week! For the next one, we will be talking about the British Isles, with @SaintDaveUK . See you!
 
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Although this may seem like a trivial issue, I’ve noticed that the impassable regions of the Alps are not colored to match the surrounding countries, even though some parts are completely surrounded by a single country. This might be due to these impassable regions being designated under the same location. I’m wondering if this could be resolved in the future? For instance, could the discontinuous impassable regions be designated to multiple separate locations?
This is a custom setting, and I keep it off, to better show where wastelands are present.
 
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Considering Climate data:
I assume you are using the 1 km Köppen-Geiger climate map. However as you indicated a 'subtropical' climate in soutwestern France 2 weeks ago, I presume you are using the 1990-2020 climate map. For comparison: link
Based on climatic research I would suggest using the 1901-1930 map; as global temperatures from 14th-15th century Europe more closely match the 1901-1930 situation.

I'm also compiling GIS info on medieval climate; and will share that eventually in the forums for discussion.
I'm very curious on which aspects of the game this will influence!
That would be very helpful!
 
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Hi Pavia! I have some input regarding the Tirol region. We have been able to catch some glimpses of it in several maps and I have some suggestions regarding impassable terrain on the norther border. However I'll hold off on that until we can actually see it properly since todays map cuts right through the middle of Tirol. My suggestion for today would be to not have the locations names be Italian. So switch Bolzano to Bozen and Merano to Meran. (As well as any other that I might have overlooked. In regards to the naming convention of the provinces. South West Tirol and South east Tirol seems somewhat akward. Normally it's split North, South, East but again I'll hold off on a suggestion here until we actually see all of Tirol together in one map. Have a great day!
 
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Sorry Pavia, as stated in previous Tinto Talks please consider that Faenza is not a vassal of the Pope in 1337, it was indipendent and ruled by the Manfredi Signoria (As it was showed in the dinasty map).
Faenza was conquered by the Pope only in 1501.
 
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Will there be a formable Arelat? Or maybe it should already exist as an international suborganization of the HRE encompassing Provence, Viennois, etc.
 
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I have for a long time had a particular fascination of the Dalmatian language and culture, and I would love for it to be properly represented.
So I thought I'd provide this spreadsheet with the place names of most of the major towns in the area.
AreaModern nameItalian (In general)DalmatianIstriotVenetianHungarianFrenchArabicCatalanSloveneGerman (In general)TuscanGreek (Medieval, romanized)Serbo-Croatian (in general)
Dalmatia (South)UlcinjDulcigno
Dalmatia (South)BarAntivari
Dalmatia (South)BudvaBudua
Dalmatia (South)KotorCattaro
Dalmatia (South)Herceg NoviCastelnuovo
Dalmatia (South)DubrovnikRagusaRagusa (Sometimes Raugia)
Dalmatia (South)StonStagno
Dalmatia (South)OpuzenFort Opus
Dalmatia (South)PločePorto Tolero
South Dalmatian IslandsKorčula (Korčula)Curzola (Curzola)
South Dalmatian IslandsVela Luka (Korčula)Vallegrande (Curzola)
South Dalmatian IslandsHvar (Hvar)Lesina (Lesina)
South Dalmatian IslandsSućuraj (Hvar)San Giorgio (Lesina)
South Dalmatian IslandsStari Grad (Hvar)Cittavecchia (Lesina)
South Dalmatian IslandsSveti Petar (Brač)San Pietro (Brazza)
South Dalmatian IslandsMilna (Brač)Milnà (Brazza)
Dalmatia (North)MakarskaMacarscaMacharscha
Dalmatia (North)ImotskiImoschi
Dalmatia (North)OmišAlmissa
Dalmatia (North)SplitSplatoSpalato
Dalmatia (North)SolinSalona
Dalmatia (North)KlisClissa
Dalmatia (North)TriljTreglia
Dalmatia (North)SinjSigno
Dalmatia (North)TrogirTraù
Dalmatia (North)ŠibenikSebenico
Dalmatia (North)KninTeninTinin
Dalmatia (North)Biograd na MoruZaravecchia
Dalmatia (North)BenkovacBencovazzo
Dalmatia (North)NovigradCittanova
Dalmatia (North)ZadarJaderaZara (Jatara pre ~14th century)ZáraJadresJādharaSarra (Jazara or Jara pre ~14th century)Giara
Dalmatia (North)PagPago
Croatian littoralKarlobagCarlopago
North Dalmatian IslandsRab (Rab)Arba (Arba)Arbe (Arbe)
North Dalmatian IslandsCres (Cres)Crepsa (Crepsa)Cherso (Cherso)
North Dalmatian IslandsKrk (Krk)Vikla (Vikla)Veglia (Veglia)
Croatian littoralSenjSegna
Croatian littoralCrikvenicaCirquenizza
Croatian littoralRijekaFluaimFiumeFiumeRekaSankt Veit am Flaum
IstriaOpatijaAbbazia
IstriaLabinAlbona
IstriaPazinPisinoMitterburg
IstriaMedulinMedolino
IstriaPulaPuolaPolaPólaPulj
IstriaRovinjRovignoRuveîgnoRygínion
IstriaKoperCapodistriaKoper

Other than that I would like to see Istriot to be split off from Dalmatian, if they're to small of a group to be represented that's understandable however.
I also think there should be some salt in Istria, as the it provided much of the salt for the Venetians.


As far as locations go, I would like for Brazza to be called Brazza-Lesina instead.

The peninsula north of Ragusa called Pelješac / Sabbioncello was owned by Ragusa and not Venice at this time, though they were paying tribute to them.
I suggest splitting the islands of Curzola and Lissa from Slano, having Venice owning the former and Ragusa the latter. Either adding the islands to Brazza or creating a new location.
 
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Interesting stuff with the international organization situation. Speaking of international organizations, I also wonder about Ferrara though. Because the territory of the d'Este family was legally split in two. The main Ferrara half was formally a part of the Papal States and as such a subject of the Pope. But the western half of Modena was subject to the Holy Roman Emperor. Since both were already used as examples of international organizations, I'm curious as to how that'll affect their gameplay.

Naples is also interesting since it also shares dynasty with Hungary (and various other spots in Southern Europe), though personally I'm leaning closer towards uniting Anjou lands as Hungary.

And the situation in northern Italy is also a breath of fresh air compared to EUIV with a larger number of roughly equal actors, with Verona, Viennois and Aquileia all holding hefty territory.
 
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Subtropical climate is correct for the Po' Valley. The name is kinda misleading, but the place is incredibly humid. Around December, sometimes you get so much fog you can't even see your own hands.

Edit: suggested to add Swamps north and south of Venice, but... squinting my eyes, I see they're already there.
 
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Pretty sure it's a new feature having the catholic stripes in the religion map mode. Is that to signify the state/ruler's religion?
We have multiple mapmodes, this one shows the owner country's true faith in stripes instead of the minority religion.

Rest assured the minority mapmode we show in these dev diaries basically shows the same monolithic Catholic setup: it's Italy.
 
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Are there specific reasons that the southern Italian Greeks (Griko) aren't represented on the map? I know that some of the provinces in the Alps are smaller and would be less populated than those in southern Italy, but even today there are more Griko people in Italy than Ladins and the Romansh in Switzerland who are clearly represented. Even with a cursory glance at the internet it seems there was a much more substantial Greek presence at the time of Project Caesar. Also this could answer my question, are the whitish lines in Salento and Calabria supposed to represent the Griko or is that for another community?
 
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Hi Pavia, This is going to be a really minor request but I would suggest splitting Sovana into 2 and adding the location of Orbotello. Orbotello isnt historically important enough to be added as a location/province as its only major event was pretty much its siege during Franco-Spanish wars and the subsequent naval battle but it has an extremely unique and interesting geography and considering the overall density of Italy I believe it would make a good addition to the region
 

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The Times They Are A-Changin'... Matteo Visconti was an important member of the Ghibelline party when Emperor Henry VII entered Italy, and his successors, Galeazzo and Azzone, also had to face their Guelph enemies, the Della Torre dynasty, and Pope John XXII.
Yeah, i forgot about the Della Torre
 
How come there is one part of Arborea that is part of the neapolitan market, despite being part of a nation in the genoese market, and fully surrounded by it? Like, what happened there?
huh.PNG
 
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I can provide some feedback on the Northwest (Piedmont and Liguria) in the next few days.

Can you please share whether minor tags there (especially Alba, Mondovì and Asti) are in some form vassals or under the protection of the Anjou?
We need to rework them a bit (when we made the region [actually, I scripted the countries and characters of North Western Italy as my first task when I joined PDX, and it was... painful], we required some code functionalities that were lacking to have proper PUs and subjects in the region); so any feedback about the sphere of influence of Robert of Anjou in North Italy is pretty much welcome.
 
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This is a custom setting, and I keep it off, to better show where wastelands are present.
However, the wastelands (if they are) within Naples’ territory and Corsica are colored in. What is the reason for this?
 
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If Rijeka in Croatia is such a small location on the map, I don't see why San Marino shouldn't be. I know it's small, but look at Rijeka! Something equally small could be San Marino :D
And rightly, someone has already written that an island of Venice can be made of a similar size to Rijeka
 
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At least we got Italian Lead production here, something we didn't get in Imperator.

I don't really see any major inaccuracies, I just wonder if area around Fucine Lake shouldn't be marked as Marsh instead of Plateau.
 
Overall I love this map of Italy, but I do hope that certain important locations are added, which I've shown in the (crude) map below:
IMG_3653.jpeg

The first change I think should be made is making Elba its own location, it makes no sense for it not to exist and it's even in CK3. Also, the empire of Elba was a thing for 9 months, so it should be its own location.

The next is making Venice an Island, I know it it will be hard to click, but that's a sacrifice I'm willing to make. The rest of the current Venice location can be renamed to Marghera.

I'd also like to see Monaco be added, in 1337 the Grimaldis ruled roughly the same lands as they do today. But from 1340-50 they would gain the towns of Roquebrune and Menfort. So the perfect location map would see Monaco and Roquebrune-Menfort as separate locations, with an event for Monaco to gain Roquebrune-Menfort. But the more realistic solution would be to have it as one location on game start, as shown in my map. Also at game start Monaco should be a vassal of Genoa.

My final change is to make the Eolie islands their own location at game start, as they were owned by Naples and not Sicilly. However a French fleet would occupy the island in 1337, so an event should be added for that. Sadly, I couldn't find anymore information about the French invasion.
 
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Okay so first the location of Locarno:
locarno.png

I have drawn in Lago Maggiore and Locarno (overlaid with the same map projection so it's accurate), as you can see, the Locarno location is way off.
I have to admit I can't figure out the name of the location that's in the place of actual Locarno or why it's owned by Como when actual Como is way further East and owned by Milan.
 
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