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Tinto Maps #5 - 7th of June 2024 - Italy

Hello everyone, and welcome to the fifth Tinto Maps! This week we will be sharing the map of Italy.

One comment before we start: we know that you might be eager to discuss other regions that may appear partially on the DD, such as the Balkans. Let’s try to keep the conversations separated in different threads, please; every region will get its own Tinto Maps, and we will show them and gather feedback in due time, in their own DD.

With that said, let’s start!:

Countries
Countries.jpg

The situation of Italy in 1337 is quite interesting. The main power in the peninsula is the Kingdom of Naples, ruled by King Robert I, who is also ruler of Provence, and a few minor countries in Northern Italy; his efforts towards the domination of Italy also made him the leader of the Guelph faction in Italy, which backs the Pope. Speaking of him, the seat of the Curia is at Avignon, and regaining control over the Papal States and moving it back to Rome might take some time and effort. Opposite to all of them, there is the Ghibelline faction, led by the Signoria of Milan, ruled by the Visconti dynasty. They are backed by other important powers in the Italian region, such as the Superb Republic of Genoa, or the Duchy of Verona, ruled by the dynasty of della Scala. There are also neutral powers, like the Republics of Venice or Siena, although they could be attracted to join one of the factions. And we also have foreign powers that have already set a foothold in Italy, such as the Crown of Aragon, which has established a branch of its dynasty as Kings of Sicilia, while also recently conquering some lands in Sardinia.

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Guelphs.jpg

Ghibellines.jpg

Guelphs and Ghibellines factions! They are International Organizations part of a Situation.

Dynasties
dynasties.png


Locations
Locations.jpg

There is an interesting density in Italy, especially in the North, where there are plenty of communes - the Italian city-states. You might also notice something a bit different from previous Paradox GSGs: Venice is not an island, but the location has lands around the lagoon. We aren’t 100% sure that this will be the final design, as we have a few ideas to try to keep its special position on an island inside the lagoon while addressing the issue of it being too small to appear in the map; in this regard, we’re open about feedback and ideas on the topic.

Provinces
Provinces.jpg

Any naming suggestions about the provinces are well-received, as usual.

Terrain
Climate.jpg

Topography.jpg

Vegetation.jpg

Three usual terrain layers. Something that I want to comment on is that we’ve been following this thread about ‘Revising Flatlands and hills’, and we are trying to get a bit more granularity in the Topographical map with the help of @SulphurAeron .

Cultures
Cultures.jpg

Italy is also a region with a sharp cultural division, and also plenty of minorities; although they don’t appear on the map, there are Italki Jews, or Greek and Albanian people in the South, among others.

Religions
Religion.jpg

Another boring region, with more than 90% of the population being Catholic, with most of the religious minorities being Italkim Jews and Orthodox Greeks. We're considering implementing Waldensians, although adding more diverging Catholic heresies/confessions is a bit of a low priority for us right now. As a side note, it might catch your eye the Krstjani of Bosnia; we’ll discuss them later on, in the Tinto Maps devoted to the Balkans.

Raw Goods
Raw Goods.jpg

Italy is a rich region with plenty of interesting raw materials.

Markets
Markets.jpg

There are three market centers in Italy: Genoa, Venice, and Naples (which was a very, very rich country in 1337, the wealthiest of the region). As usual, take into account that. 1. We don't script in the setup which locations belong to each market, they're automatically assigned to each market. 2. This starting distribution is not final, and it might change, as we do tweaks to the market access calculations over time.

Population
Pops Countries.jpg

Pops Locations.png

There is around 10.5M population in the Italian region as of now. Taking into account how divided the political landscape is, Naples looks scary…

And that’s all for this week! For the next one, we will be talking about the British Isles, with @SaintDaveUK . See you!
 
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I think I have a solution to the problem. All locations will be divided into 200 to 500 villages and towns and the map will be enlarged accordingly. Then you could depict Monnacco, San Marino and Venice as islands in the lagoon without any problems, right?

You don't have to thank me for the idea, a huge gold statue in front of the Paradox Tinto Studio is enough.
Mate, this game wouldn't be possible without you. :p
 
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Why did you call Italian Jews "Italkim Jews", "Italkim" means Italians so it's like saying "Italians Jews" which doesn't make a lot of sense (unless I am missing something)

Like sefaradi means Spanish, tsarfati means French, romaniote means Roman (byzantine) and ashkenazi means Rhinelander/German.
EDIT typo
 
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I can provide some feedback on the Northwest (Piedmont and Liguria) in the next few days.

Dear @Pavía: Can you please share whether minor tags there (especially Alba, Mondovì and Asti) are in some form vassals or under the protection of the Anjou?
I think the best way to represent Angevin influence on northern Italy is through the Guelph League, especially since the Angevins were driven out of the region very shortly after the game begins, in a series of battles between 1339 and 1345
 
About Ascoli Piceno, the area wasn't producing a lot of fish. Instead, its economy was more gravitating around wool and a little bit of silk, and later (17th century) agriculture.
Good call on making it of Neapolitan culture!
I also hope to see a little bit of flavor around it with all the mess its political system brought to the city and the rise and fall of Galeotto Malatesta between 1348 and 1353 but I might be asking too much for such a small city at a stage this early, I'd be glad to have some army and fort defense bonuses in exchange with a very high unrest during his rule if you consider to adding him to the game.

EDIT: regarding the political system: in the dynasty map you put a certain "Doria" as lord of Ascoli, but at the time the Podestà (title of the city governor) was a certain Angelo del Signor Bartolomeo di Rieti, who governed until 1339. Mind that Ascoli was really unstable and changed lots of governors, around one every 1-2 years and had even 5 different governors in 1346, before Galeotto Malatesta was called by the population to assume power. After Galeotto was expelled by local rebels the city went under Papal control.
Why is Galeotto so important? Well, he conquered almost all the region and he was in a very terrible relationship with the church. Both peasants and church played a big role in the rebellions. Also he turned Ascoli into a very strong fortress by building new fortifications.
 
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Do situations like the Investiture Controversy (which i guess is what those wars in italy you talked about are) influence in any way future situations? Like the winner between the conflicts between the papacy and the HRE over italy influence the italian wars situation in any way? And i would also like to know how situations that happen later in the game might change if the nations they would normaly involve die before it happens. How do you pick the players involved and stuff?
 
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"Belluno and Cadore" province should just be named "Belluno" like all the other provinces in Veneto which are named after the most important city there. Today Belluno, Feltre and Cadore are all part of the real-life province of Belluno.

Also the correct spelling of "Grosetto" is Grosseto
 
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Please take into account the fact that in 1337 Carniola was not fully under the control of the Habsburgs.
These two locations Kočevje and Spittal an der Drau (marked in red) were owned by the Counts of Ortenburg. In 1374, after the extinction of the Counts of Ortenburg, these locations were also inherited by the Counts of Celje/Cilli.
These two areas were still in the possession of the Counts of Celjski called Ortenburg County (Ortenburška Grofija). In 1456, when the Counts of Celje died out, it came into Habsburg possession.

The location marked in blue, County in the March and Möttlig, was owned by the Counts of Gorizia of the Istrian branch until 1374. After their extinction, it was inherited by the Habsburgs, but then sold to the Counts of Celje/Cilli. This could be its own area in the game. And so, in 1456, this area also became the property of the Habsburgs.

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Will the Venetian flag be red finally or converted to blue like in EU4 to match the country map color?
venice.jpg


(It doesn't look so pixelated in-game, it's because of the quick screenshot I've just taken)
 
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"Belluno and Cadore" province should just be named "Belluno" like all the other provinces in Veneto which are named after the most important city there. Today Belluno, Feltre and Cadore are all part of the real-life province of Belluno.

Also the correct spelling of "Grosetto" is Grosseto
nickname checks out
 
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We're considering implementing Waldensians, although adding more diverging Catholic heresies/confessions is a bit of a low priority for us right now.

A compromise could involve just combining them with Lollards. However, I would still advocate for their inclusion, considering they lasted until the Reformation, had crusades called against them, and even controlled the Hungarian capital of Buda for a short period.
 
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