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Tinto Maps #5 - 7th of June 2024 - Italy

Hello everyone, and welcome to the fifth Tinto Maps! This week we will be sharing the map of Italy.

One comment before we start: we know that you might be eager to discuss other regions that may appear partially on the DD, such as the Balkans. Let’s try to keep the conversations separated in different threads, please; every region will get its own Tinto Maps, and we will show them and gather feedback in due time, in their own DD.

With that said, let’s start!:

Countries
Countries.jpg

The situation of Italy in 1337 is quite interesting. The main power in the peninsula is the Kingdom of Naples, ruled by King Robert I, who is also ruler of Provence, and a few minor countries in Northern Italy; his efforts towards the domination of Italy also made him the leader of the Guelph faction in Italy, which backs the Pope. Speaking of him, the seat of the Curia is at Avignon, and regaining control over the Papal States and moving it back to Rome might take some time and effort. Opposite to all of them, there is the Ghibelline faction, led by the Signoria of Milan, ruled by the Visconti dynasty. They are backed by other important powers in the Italian region, such as the Superb Republic of Genoa, or the Duchy of Verona, ruled by the dynasty of della Scala. There are also neutral powers, like the Republics of Venice or Siena, although they could be attracted to join one of the factions. And we also have foreign powers that have already set a foothold in Italy, such as the Crown of Aragon, which has established a branch of its dynasty as Kings of Sicilia, while also recently conquering some lands in Sardinia.

g&gs.png

Guelphs.jpg

Ghibellines.jpg

Guelphs and Ghibellines factions! They are International Organizations part of a Situation.

Dynasties
dynasties.png


Locations
Locations.jpg

There is an interesting density in Italy, especially in the North, where there are plenty of communes - the Italian city-states. You might also notice something a bit different from previous Paradox GSGs: Venice is not an island, but the location has lands around the lagoon. We aren’t 100% sure that this will be the final design, as we have a few ideas to try to keep its special position on an island inside the lagoon while addressing the issue of it being too small to appear in the map; in this regard, we’re open about feedback and ideas on the topic.

Provinces
Provinces.jpg

Any naming suggestions about the provinces are well-received, as usual.

Terrain
Climate.jpg

Topography.jpg

Vegetation.jpg

Three usual terrain layers. Something that I want to comment on is that we’ve been following this thread about ‘Revising Flatlands and hills’, and we are trying to get a bit more granularity in the Topographical map with the help of @SulphurAeron .

Cultures
Cultures.jpg

Italy is also a region with a sharp cultural division, and also plenty of minorities; although they don’t appear on the map, there are Italki Jews, or Greek and Albanian people in the South, among others.

Religions
Religion.jpg

Another boring region, with more than 90% of the population being Catholic, with most of the religious minorities being Italkim Jews and Orthodox Greeks. We're considering implementing Waldensians, although adding more diverging Catholic heresies/confessions is a bit of a low priority for us right now. As a side note, it might catch your eye the Krstjani of Bosnia; we’ll discuss them later on, in the Tinto Maps devoted to the Balkans.

Raw Goods
Raw Goods.jpg

Italy is a rich region with plenty of interesting raw materials.

Markets
Markets.jpg

There are three market centers in Italy: Genoa, Venice, and Naples (which was a very, very rich country in 1337, the wealthiest of the region). As usual, take into account that. 1. We don't script in the setup which locations belong to each market, they're automatically assigned to each market. 2. This starting distribution is not final, and it might change, as we do tweaks to the market access calculations over time.

Population
Pops Countries.jpg

Pops Locations.png

There is around 10.5M population in the Italian region as of now. Taking into account how divided the political landscape is, Naples looks scary…

And that’s all for this week! For the next one, we will be talking about the British Isles, with @SaintDaveUK . See you!
 
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Regarding the cultures I think you guys did a good job! Having the all 3 the rhaeto-romance languages is something I wasn't expecting, even making Massa and Mantua Emilian is something the majority of Italians don't know, my only complaints are:

1- The lack of a Romagnol culture, wich is arguably the most different from all the other Gallo-romance languages(As an Emilian my self i know very well!);

2- The name of the Umbrian culture(wich should be called "Median/Mediano" since Umbrian is only one of the many dialects, the term means "in the middle" due to the location in the middle of the peninsula).

P.s. The province of Urbino should be in central Italy and not in the region of Emilia-Romagna even if the majority of people there are Romagnol, that is if you are basing yourself from the modern regions of Italy and not the cultures since before 1861 both regions have always been unrelated to each other, I could be wrong since the southern provinces are based on the ones of the kingdom of 2 Sicilies but whatever the case, keep up the good work!
 
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A slightly upscaled island of Venice wouldn't be too much of an issue, in my opinion. Yes, historical and geographical accuracy is always welcomed, but cutting corners for the sake of gameplay - especially for something so small (haha geddit) feels completely justifiable. It doesn't have to be huge like in EU4, but it can definitely be represented in the size of the Rijeka location (which is also quite small). In return, we get to simulate the strategic and defensive benefits of this island city, which would otherwise be quite weak, especially in a war against Verona which can just march in via the land border.
 
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@Pavía
The provinces of Calabria Citra and Calabria Ultra are swapped.
Calabria Citra is supposed to be the one bordering Basilicata not Ultra.
(The image shows the regions of the Kingdom of Naples with Calabria Citra highlighted)
 

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@Pavía it would be nice if the game can simulate the very fluid situation of the Italian polities, some are still comuni, some are now signorie. In Northern Italy, there is no clear dominant power yet: the Visconti from Milan are on the rise, the Scaligeri in Verona have a tenuous hold on the North East. 1337 is the year the Da Carrara family makes Padua independent again from Verona, a guess a few months after our start date, and Padua is going to turn the tables on the Scaligeri and later challenge Venice under the cunning and ambitious Francesco I, defined by the Venetian historian Alvise Zorzi the "Carrarese fox" (ruling from 1345 to 1388). It is interesting that Padua allied itself, with Genoa in the Chioggia war, getting closed to give the final blow to the Serenissima. The rise of Venice is still not a certainty, maybe Padua could have beaten the Lion and consolidated its control over the North East. Still, Venice survived thanks to its lagoon, so I vote in favour of re-establishing Venice as an island. Ideally you have a location for "Venice-island" (Rialto) and "Venice-mainland" (Chioggia or Mestre). At the same time it should be possible for Verona to have some ways to consolidate its power as Venice did in the next century, if they are able to keep the other cities in check.
 
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I am beginning to steadily dislike the climate map more and more. "Subtropical" po valley, oceanic counties in the Mediterranean and even in locations that don't border the coast.

Ahem. Anyway, neat map! Makes you wonder where it all went wrong for the south lol, I'm half worried it'll end up a bit too stacked in their favor.
Are you basing your criticism of climates in anything or just comenting based on vibes?
 
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loving it so far, so, first of all a couple of locations suggestions

carving out on the eastern side of Apulia's coast Otranto from parts of Lecce and Gallipoli

changing the name "Terre d'Otranto" to "Salento"

carving out Amalfi (hills) from Naples and Salerno(flatlands) (even though the Dutchy of Amalfi didn't exist anymore, Amalfi was still a very important city and trade centre given its recent history in the game's timeframe)

adding the Lago Maggiore and Lago di Como as impassable terrain just as the Lago di Garda was added

adding a Stresa location

changing "Lomello" into "Vigevano"

making both Terracina and Velletri marshes, as a lot of swamps in that area were only reclaimed under the fascist regime

totally remaking the "Terra di Lavoro" locations into the following :

Sora (hill), Gaeta (mountain), Mignano (or Minturno or Suio) (hill), Caserta(flatland), Naples(flatland), Cassino(marsh, it's another swamp area that was reclaimed under the fascist regime ), Ceprano(flatland)

Sora should border Ceprano and Cassino; Ceprano ahould border Sora, Gaeta and Cassino; Gaeta should border Ceprano, Cassino and Mignano. Cassino should border Ceprano, Gaeta, Sora and Mignano. Mignano should border Gaeta, Cassino, Caserta and Naples

carving a Mestre location out of Venice

general topography and RGOs :

all rice producing areas should be realistically be turned into marhses (or rice rgos provinces should have the same defensive bonus marhses get). Also Pavia should produce rice

Italy should have far far more mountains and hills. Most of the Appennines should be mountains. Besides Apulia, Campania, Rome and its outskirts and the Po valley italy should be mainly mountainous, with small valley corrdiors on each side of the appeninens where the big army descented and the fortresses were placed. The harshness of the terrrain is what caused Italy to be divided so much, and what caused fighting there such a pain up to WW2

wool should be mainly produced in the Inner Appenines in Basilicata (and maybe there can be some "Transumanza" events given that historically it caused Spain and France to clash over in Italy)
 
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So here's some feedback regarding the passes of the Alps shown in this map.
As mentioned before in the France thread, I did some research on the historical passes that were in use at the time period and came up with this map. (Two changes since I made that map: Passo San Giocomo wasn't usable for armies, better representation of passes in South Tyrol)
I also already went into the French-Italian passes in that thread here so I won't go over them in much detail.

Now for a map where I've drawn in impassible areas between passes and a few location suggestions:
italypasses.png

So going from West to East:
  • I already wrote enough about the location of Pragelato in that other thread, there's nothing else to say about it, but I do want to mention Canavese again.
  • Canavese is a region, not a city name, so the naming is probably not ideal. As mentioned previously, there should be no connection to Morgex as there is no pass road going there, even today. Since Canavese in this map is the location from where you go through Aosta into the Alps, I would suggest Ivrea as the name for the location as it lies right on the route to the Aosta Valley.
  • The connection between Brig and Val d'Ossola is correct, that's the Simplonpass.
  • As mentioned before, the Locarno location is very misplaced. As you can see in this map of Swiss territorial expansion, the area where its located is actually called Leventina and its main city is Faido. Leventina should also connect to Belmont through the Lukmanierpass which was the most important pass in Switzerland during the Middle Ages.
  • This is all technically in Switzerland and not Italy, but I also want to comment that the Urseren area (see Swiss map) looks weird without a proper location there, so maybe Andermatt could be added which connects to Brig in the west through the Furkapass, to Leventina in the south through the Gotthardpass, to Belmont(Anterior Rhine Valley) in the east through the Oberalppass and to Uri in the north through the Reuss valley. It is traditionally a crossroads location. Alternatively, this could be added to Uri which did control it politically.
  • As mentioned, Belmont should absolutely be connected to whatever ends up located west of it. The Oberalppass was already important in the Middle Ages and Disentis Abbey (an alternative location name here but Belmont castle is fine too) owned toll rights to this route.
  • To the south, at the northern end of the Como location, there is a small impassible area and it's correct that it allows connection between Messoco and Como since there is the Passo San Jorio that goes East to West and even has a section in its Wikipedia article that talks about its historical importance.
  • Mesocco and Chiavenna connecting north through the San Bernadino and Splügenpass respectively is correct, but they shouldn't connect to Belmont, but rather to Greifen- whatever (couldn't find the full name of the location so it's probably another old castle). Edit: It looks like the Splügenpass wasn't suitable for movement of armies, so Chiavenna should indeed not connect north.
  • Greifen-x also correctly connects to Guardaval (not sure if naming this location after a castle rather than St. Moritz is great but not really a problem) through a variety of passes that are located there.
  • Guardaval correctly connects to Sondrio through the Berninapass. South of Sondrio, there should be the Passo di San Marco, connecting it to Zogno.
  • I have drawn a suggestion for the impassible area around Bormio, which allows Bormio to include all of Livigno and have a decent size while also allowing for correct borders. Bormio should connect north through the Umbrailpass, this pass was used extensively by Venezian commerce and had a post route in the 15th century. Ludovico Sforza fled to Tyrol through this pass when France took Milan. The pass fell into disuse from the 16th century because other passes were easier to traverse and it was politically prudent for Graubünden to avoid maintaining the pass.
  • The Swiss location Tarasp should extend further south-east into Val Müstair (through the Ofenpass) and connect south to Bormio through the Umbrailpass and north-east to Val Venosta.
  • Riva should connect to whatever the location north of it is through Passo Campo Carlo Magno.
  • Moena: while this area has many famous passes today, most of them weren't suitable for armies in the time period. However, there was one: The Passo di San Pellegrino, directly east of Moena. It's named after monks who opened a hospice there in the 14th century, along the important road.
  • The rest looks fine, but Carnia did have a few more passes to the north. Not a big deal considering it has a connection anyway.

This a more in-detail map of the area:

View attachment 1145135

Please ignore:
1. The change in the colors of the locations; it's because I'm currently in the branch with the Iberian map review, and colors have changed because of the new additions.
2. The geographical features of the region need to be reviewed, we're aware of it.
Thanks, here's my suggestion for the locations then:
suggestionlocarno.png

Locarno, Lugano and Bellinzona all in their correct places.
Andermatt and Faido are maybe too small, but they are fairly important as crossroads in the Alps, especially Andermatt.
I also don't really understand the locations of Lecco and Monza, since Monza is well south of Como and Lecco is to the east of it, so I've redrawn that as well.

Edit: Fixed Splügenpass in both maps.
Edit2: Redrew shape of Locarno a bit to represent the inhabited valleys in the location. My drawing looks horrible but they should be easy to trace with a topographic map overlaid.
 
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I can't figure out the name of the location west of Monferato. Also, wouldn't Chivasso be a better name for the Monferato location, since that was the actual town that was the center of power in the region?
If you mean up Montferrat its probably Canavese, if you really mean west then its Savoy
 
Will there be any situation regarding the aragonese conquest of Sardinia and Naples? The Sardinian–Aragonese war is around the corner at the game start and Naples was created as part of the division of the former kingdom of Sicily, so reunification is likely to be a valid cassus belli at the beginning.

Why would this need a situation and not just claims or CB to make Aragon try to take the rest of Sardinia or the Sardinians try to get their land back? Situations are really for well "situations that are diffucult to correctly model with just game mechanics" and this war really isn't.
 
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I have a few things to point out:
- The inner padan plain (at least the flatlands from Mantua to Saluzzo) should be continental climate, not subtropical
- The Po delta was 10-20 km shorter in the time frame of the game, it started extending into the Adriatic after the surrounding rivers were channeled
- Also look up "Piana del Fucino" (it was a lake drained in 1852, the romans drained partially but it was still pretty big), if you are doing a geographic mapmode
- Many of the modern farmlands and grasslands are the result of massive swamp reclmation efforts in the XIX and XX century, so some locations should me marked as swamp.
P.S. Managed to post the map (Red and striped areas were reclaimed very late or later than the end date)
View attachment 1145187
dude Povalley is NOT continental . the area was full marshes and is perfect for growing Rice today. its hot and Humid , dont be fooled by the wintery snow generated by mountains even spain and morocco and northern Iraq get that.
Po valley is certainly not continental.
continental mean it have the average climate of the continent like eastern france or central europe. Po valley does not have that.
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There should be some lumber in Istria as it was one of the Venetians' main sources of lumber, especially along the Mirna river that flows out near Novigrad. That would be the area in the Rovinj province that produces fish.
 
Ok, as it has been overlooked two times, I ask it again: what is the motive for the Bavarian Trentino?

According to Serena Luzzi, in the 15th century only 1/14 of the population of the capital city of Trent were Germans. Do we pretend that the Pestilence of the 14th century killed all the German speaking people in the Trentino or may we talk a bit about the cultural minority and majority in this area?
 
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Looking forward to play with Arborea! I am originally from Sardinia and I wanted to congratulate on the work you did on the island which looks really detailed compared to previous instances of your games and what I’m particularly impressed by is the Corsican presence on the northern part of the island which developed to today into the hybrid Gallurese culture and language which is definitely an impressive detail! Your historical team needs a weekly talk aswel just so we know how you manage to find these very small but precious details :)
From which part are you from?