Tinto Maps #5 - 7th of June 2024 - Italy

[StanWojenny]

Carbonia in Sardinia needs a major name change: the city of Carbonia has been founded in 1937, that name surely can't be used.
I support the proposal by @Karalis123: it should be changed into Tratalias, name of the last major village and last seat of the Diocese of Sulcis at the start of the game, or just changed into Sulcis, reflecting the fact that during most of the timeframe of the game it was almost an uninhabited region.

 

[A Landy]

Airships are in the game! Sweet, there's no other way that purple tile can get stuff to Naples otherwise

 

[A Landy]

For spices, should definitely be broken up into regional spices (as someone in the YouTube comments of Lord Lambert's video on this suggested) or just have the individual ones

 

[Sirbab]

I am beginning to steadily dislike the climate map more and more. "Subtropical" po valley, oceanic counties in the Mediterranean and even in locations that don't border the coast.

Ahem. Anyway, neat map! Makes you wonder where it all went wrong for the south lol, I'm half worried it'll end up a bit too stacked in their favor.

But... The po valley is subtropical, like just look at a koppen climate map

 

[Mef]

For spices, should definitely be broken up into regional spices (as someone in the YouTube comments of Lord Lambert's video on this suggested) or just have the individual ones

They had that, but since goods substitution exists, having different spices that all substitute for each other anyway, doesn't really add anything to the game.

 

[SirMax06]

Is the island of Elba a location?

 

[mattd_]

Benevento seems like an odd exclusion - was a pretty major town at the time having been the seat of a duchy till the early 1000's before becoming an important religious centre and exclave from the papal states.

Would also help potentially in fixing quite how snakey Piedimonte and Caserta are....

Spoiler: Maps

 

[Pilbur]

Thanks for the map! I will add a few comment on the topography and naming of Western Piedmont.

1) The most important map revision I would like to suggest is the elimination of the connection between Canavese and Montreaux: as it was already stated, the road through the Colle del Nivolet was only built in 1931, and the area was never important for the passage of goods or armies: this would also justify the importance of Aosta, Turin, and Cuneo (the "three cities that guard the passes") like it happened historically.

2) I agree that Monferrato can be renamed to Chivasso, for continuity in choosing names of city over names of areas. However, the location of the city of Chivasso would be at the very border of the province as it is now, making its extension a bit weird. Split the province into Chivasso (west) and Casale (east) could be a solution. Another one is to keep only the western part as Chivasso, and inglobate the eastern portion into Vercelli: in that case, probably I would second the suggestion of adding Biella as its own province in what now is northern Vercelli

4) For the same rationale of continuity in naming, I also second the suggestion of transforming Canavese province into Ivrea (I think that Canavese should be more of an area name: see point 8)

5) I find the naming in southwestern Piedmont a bit weird: Incisa, as it was suggested before, should probably be renamed in Acqui Terme (Nizza Monferrato would also be a good contender for a name, but I guess that it would be a bit conflicting with the much more famous Nizza).

6) The one that confuses me the most is the province of Carretto. I guess it wishes to represent the valley of the Bormida, but the only toponym in that valley that corresponds to the naming of the province is a fraction of the comune of Cairo Montenotte, fraction which nowadays has 60 inhabitants. Its role mainly comes from its naming of the Del Carretto family (https://www.treccani.it/enciclopedia/del-carretto_(Enciclopedia-Italiana)/). As I understand (https://www.histouring.com/en/historical-figure/del-carretto/), however, the emphasis of the provenience was mostly stressed by the republic of genova, at the time the Del Carretto were trying to make themselves recognized as Marquis of Savona: the Genovese were underlying their actual provenance from am irrelevant place to undermine their prestige and claims (was basically like calling them "The von F*ckingNowheres).
Topographically, the importance of the area as a pass connecting piedmont and liguria is, nowadays, completely superseded by the Ceva and Scrivia passes: alas, I don't have particular info on past centuries usage I can pass on. My suggestion would be to eliminate the province, incorporating it between Finale, Ceva and Genova (especially if there is the adding of another province, such as Biella or Casale, to keep the balance of the area more or less the same). Even if I have to admit that starting as Carretto, conquer Genova, and depopulating it transforming Carretto into a metropolis would be an atrociously insulting ahistorically fun game.

7) Area names: as already stated, a couple of typos: Mondovì instead of Mondovi, and Ponente instead of Punente

8) Area names: I would suggest for a reorganization. In particular the Monferrato area is, I take, adapted from the political borders of the Marquisate of Monferrato: however, the geographical area of Monferrato is not that one: as it is now, it would correspond to Alessandria, Asti, Incisa, and Monferrato provinces (https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monferrato#/media/File:Monferrato_map.svg). Therefore, the positioning of the area called "monferrato" now is too much north: the inclusion of valli di lanzo and canavese is, strictly speaking, wrong. To revise the situation I propose two alternatives: both take the valli di lanzo and canavese away from monferrato area (that, for balance reasons and keeping areas with at least 3 provinces, can see the inclusion of Incisa province, making it Incisa/Acqui+Asti+Monferrato/Casale). Alternative 1: place the Valli di Lanzo in the Principato Torinese area, and the Canavese/Ivrea into Aosta. Cons: probaly Principato Torinese gets too big, Ivrea into Aosta is even wronger than Canavese in Monferrato. Pro: there is no need for a province redraw. Alternative 2: assuming the suggested split of what is now Monferrato province into West Chivasso and East Casale, keep Casale in Monferrato (after all, the name of the city is Casale Monferrato) and group Valli di Lanzo, Canavese/Ivrea province and Chivasso into a Canavese area. Pro: areas actually match with real areas, borders of Canavese actually closer to reality. Cons: requires adding another province, or create an area with only 2 provinces.

9) Trade Goods. I only mention that silk production in southern piedmont was quite widespread starting from the 1600, centered around Caraglio, located in what would be the province of Cuneo, and also, @Pavía, a fun toponym for someone speaking spanish . The decision of change raw good, however, has more impacting gameplay consequences that I can imagine, especially considering a source of Silk already present in Genova, something also that I struggle to justify historically but I can totally see from a game play point of view. Therefore, my suggestion in that regard is much more timid, and is more a footnote than an actual suggestion.


Thanks for your attention, it's great from you guys to give us the possibility of politely suggest contributions to something all of us hopes is going to be great.

I agree especially with the proposal of removing the location of Carretto, splitting it between the neighboring locations. As an alternative I suggest to create a location of Savona, which was a quite relevant port city still independent from Genoa.

The location of Savona should take the western part of what is currently Genoa location and a portion of the current Carretto location. The Savona location should be connected with Ceva (basically the Bormida and Tanaro valleys, the main gateway between Western Liguria and Piedmont, leading into the Piedmontese plain at Mondovì, not by accident where the army of Sardinia-Piedmont made its last stand against Napoleon).

 

[Pilum2211]

Ok, as it has been overlooked two times, I ask it again: what is the motive for the Bavarian Trentino?

According to Serena Luzzi, in the 15th century only 1/14 of the population of the capital city of Trent were Germans. Do we pretend that the Pestilence of the 14th century killed all the German speaking people in the Trentino or may we talk a bit about the cultural minority and majority in this area?

I actually found claims that would state the opposite. Like the following map.

I tried very quickly coloring it in:

The German Wikipedia also claims:

"Until around 1800, the language border ran about 15 kilometers south of Salurn at the confluence of the Noce (German: Ulz) and the Avisio (German: Efeis) with the Adige. The entire area to the left of the Adige, including the city of Trento (except the valleys along the Avisio and the Ivano district in the Lower Valsugana), had a German majority or a strong German minority from the 11th to the 17th century, and partly beyond.[19] The Cembra Valley, the Fleim Valley (except the German towns of Altrei and Truden) as well as the Nonsberg (excluding Deutschnonsberg) and the Sulzberg were Ladin.

The Italian Trentino in its current compact form only came into being as a result of an intensive phase of Italianization through ethnic homogenization since the middle of the 18th century."

Sources being:
- Bernhard Wurzer: Die deutschen Sprachinseln in Oberitalien. 4. überarb. Ausgabe, Bozen 1977
- Bepe Richebuono: Breve storia dei Ladini dolomitici. Istitut Ladin Micurà de Rü, San Martin de Tor 1992

 

[nembo22]

Some observations about SARDINIA:

• Sardinia has a distinguishing geography; it is an extremely mountainous region reaching almost 2000m at the peak. Some area that are almost impassable still today., this is the case between Tortolì on one side and Nuoro and Dorgali on the other (according to the positions on your map). Apart from this possible wasteland, most of its hills should be substituted with mountaints. I'll give you a map for reference.

Note that this geography is crucial for its historical defensibility!​

• Arborea had double the population at that time.
• About names, Carbonia did not exist at those times (it was founded in the last century). Tortolì has the accent on the i.

Can't wait to see:

• the Aragonese struggle that lasted 70 years to estabilish its authority over Sardinia in the was with Mariano IV (aka the Sardinian Skanderbeg), who attempted to unite Sardinia and was winning the war until he was killed by the pleague
• the Papal struggle to hold control over Roma while being in Avignon. Specifically the fight between Cola Di Rienzo, a popular hero that attempted to turn Rome into a city-state like northern Italian cities, and Roman barons. He succeded until he became mad and became a tyrant, but who knows if this didn't happen...

PS: maybe central italian or median would be a better name instead of Umbrian, that is one of the median italian dialect/cultures

I would like to provide with some links for bibliography but it is flagged as spam

 

[Adolfhipsteryolocaust]

The cultures are a bit too semplicistic: emilian and romagnan should be 2 different cultures, also umbrian latin and marchigian were different cultures and the south is really a mess: puglia should be apulian and calabria calabrese, and there should be abruzzese, they all speak different vulgars whinch evolved into non intelligble languages in the south and have different costumes and expetially different very different cusines which is the main metric with which we differenciate reagional cultures in italy
Also the albanians came to italy as refugees of the ottoman wars and because of the lands given to skanderbeg, the fist albanians came in 1399 and most of them came after 1446 so no albanians in 1337
And the orelaffi were the lords of Forlì, not Cesena, they conquered it, as much as it pains me as cesena is my city it shouldn't be a tag at game start, but it should be after the crusade against the ghibelline ordellaffi when it became a papal subject lead by the Malatesta (that also governed rimini)
About venice that is really hard as even representing it as an island would be an abstraction as you could "land on it" because is mostly didn't have roads nor bridges untill the austrian occupation, it was navigated and you couldn't go anywhere by foot, this poses a big challenge as it should both be a seazone and a location, idk if that's possible but that would be the most realistic way, incase that's not possible it's should be an island location, make it bigger if you must but it being a normal location with a modifies just feels wrong for a game that wants to abstract as little as possible when it was an island in the abstraction based game eu4
And last but most important: I see no distinction between white and black guelfs, that was really important as the white guelfs were for the indipendence of the signorie (and were firmly italian nationalists that sought the unification of italy in order to become a great power that would conted with the other great crowns) while the black guelfs were for papal hegemony, they fought several wars in tuscany which lead in the end to the victory of the the black guelfs and the banishment of dante Alighieri whom was a famous white guelf

 

[Kaspar Osraige]

The cultures are a bit too semplicistic: emilian and romagnan should be 2 different cultures, same goes for umbrian and and latin, and the south is really a mess: puglia should be apulian and calabria calabrese, and there should be abruzzese, they all speak different vulgars whinch evolved into non intelligble languages in the south and have different costumes and expetially different very different cusines which is the main metric with which we differenciate reagional cultures in italy
Also the albanians came to italy as refugees of the ottoman wars and because of the lands given to skanderbeg, the fist albanians came in 1399 and most of them came after 1446 so no albanians in 1337
And the orelaffi were the lords of Forlì, not Cesena, they conquered it, as much as it pains me as cesena is my city it shouldn't be a tag at game start, but it should be after the crusade against the ghibelline ordellaffi when it became a papal subject lead by the Malatesta (that also governed rimini)
And last but most important: I see no distinction between white and black guelfs, that was really important as the white guelfs were for the indipendence of the signorie (and were firmly italian nationalists that sought the unification of italy in order to become a great power that would conted with the other great crowns) while the black guelfs were for papal hegemony, they fought several wars in tuscany which lead in the end to the victory of the the black guelfs and the banishment of dante Alighieri whom was a famous white guelf

Yeah, especially since France has a million cultures, Romagnol and Latin are musts

 

[Etneo]

What's the name of the location west of Catania?

 

[Dylanwaw]

looking forward to play as the kingdom of Corsica

i know he was born long after the start date but i hope their will be an event to make Theodor von Neuhoff king of Corsica

did Genoa have direct control over Corsica in 1337?

In 1347, after years of more political turmoil, a diet of caporali and barons offered the Genoese republic the sovereignty of the isle. By the agreement with Genoa, regular tribute was to be paid, but the Corsicans were allowed to retain their own laws and customs, to be governed by their own bodies, the Twelve in the north and a new council of Six in the south, and be represented at Genoa by an orator.

Medieval Corsica - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Movet]

Regarding dynamic names, is it possible for you to create separate files for the names, instead of keeping them in the default 'Location' file? I am asking because in EU4, there are many mods that add a lot of dynamic names. However, since these names are stored in the files that define provinces, the checksum is altered, making all these mods not ironman compatible. And these changes don't affect the gameplay in any way.
Because I would love to have all the location names in Polish (when I conquered it) and play the ironman at the same time.

 

[VinceDreux]

[...] the south is really a mess: puglia should be apulian and calabria calabrese, and there should be abruzzese, they all speak different vulgars whinch evolved into non intelligble languages [...]

I think the devs grouped together the various Apulian, Lucanian, Abruzzese etc. cultures under the Neapolitan one "simply" because they belong to the same language family, which would be the Dialetti italiani meridionali (also known as meridionali intermedi, alto-meridionali, or ausoni), while the Sicilian ones belong to the Dialetti italiani meridionali estremi family (which groups together Sicilian itself, Salentino, southern Calabrian and southern Cilentano).
Southern Italy, while not as homogenous as - for example - today's France, was (and is) still homogenous enough not to create that many different cultures in-game, imho.

The same thing can be said about the "Umbrian" culture: Latium, Umbria and Marche share similar-enough dialects and culture, there's no need to add so many cultures in such a small territoy. I think it should simply change name to "Median", "Central Italian" or something along those lines.

 

[Demetrios]

Well, if Naples is looking scary, you can always add in the Principality of Taranto and the County of Lecce, both of which were important fiefs of the kingdom at this point.

 

[Dylanwaw]

i would like to suggest adding a few more locations to Corsica(7) compared with Sardinia(23) it has so few
1. Nebbio (seat of the Diocese of Nebbio)
2. Porto-Vecchio
3. Bonifacio
4. Sartène
5. rename Vico to Sagone (seat of the Diocese of Sagone)

Sagone was once an important city in Corsica. For centuries Sagone was the seat of a bishopric, one of the six dioceses of the island. The diocese of Sagone was created in the 8th century following the transfer of the bishopric of Tanata. Ravaged several times by the Barbarys, Sagone was deserted by the bishop who took refuge in Vico (from 1569 to 1625) before reaching the Genoese fortress of Calvi. The diocese was transferred to Calvi from the 16th century to 1801, when it was, like the other Corsican bishoprics, attached to the diocese of Ajaccio

Sagone — Wikipédia

fr.wikipedia.org

 

[GenghisKhan't]

Hello, I look forwards to painting these maps one day!

On the question of Venice, I think that a balance between geographical accuracy and an abstraction for gameplay reasons would be better. See the below map... The exaggeration of the lagoon allows for extra emphasis of the islands within.

If you were to the integrate this exaggerated lagoon design, you could split then have 2 locations: treviso on the mainland (which has significance as the starting point of venetian presence on the mainland) and Venice as the island city.

I feel that preserving Venice as a city of islands in a lagoon is valuable - afterall, charlegmagne failed to subdue Venice. His son died after failing the 6 month siege, ravaged by diseases exacerbated by the swamp.

So, with this in mind, I hope that rather than mega Venice as in Eu4, eu5 embraces the mega lagoon.

 

[RohenTahir]

Subtropical climate? xD