Tinto Maps #5 - 7th of June 2024 - Italy

[Insigna]

It looks like Pantelleria Island is its own province. Its culture color matches Malta but its province color does not. Given this Elba and many other islands should their own provinces too you would think.

 

[TesaVonAtti]

I know that you have confirmed several times that Monaco and Saint-Martin are too small locations to be represented in the game, personally and I think that is the case for many future players, this will not pose any problem. We can see with your screenshots that we can zoom in very significantly on the map, which would allow us to click on them. Something that could also be done for the island of Venice.

Afterwards I don't know if it's too complicated because of the population and economic viability or if it's simply due to the fact that it would be difficult to click on it. In any case I hope you will consider this "remark" in one way or another by including these two countries either on the map or via envents perhaps.

In any case, you are doing a remarkable job, I can't wait to see what happens next.

 

[Pilum2211]

Thing is, that I've read all this stuff long ago, mostly in German speaking literature from the beginning 20th century, which interestingly mentions the Italian immigration in the 18th century, but does not mention the German Immigration at all; the Vinschgau, for example, was mostl Ladin until the 18th century.

The map you have posted is from 1908, and as such from a time period which was heavily influenced by political intentions. It's also quite easily to defeat the argument in the map when looking at the church registers of the 16th century - the Val di Non/Val di Sole only contains italian names, but Wilhelm Romeder, the author of the map, just claims they were all Ladin or German. In particular, the upper parts of the valley were already speaking a Lombard dialect in the Late Middle Ages. I have reserached documents from Pellizzano and Ossana in that area, and the names mentioned in that region in the 15th and 16th century are clearly not German, whereas Romeder claims that the Val di Sole was "more than 50 percent Ladin and the rest German".

So, let's have a look at the inventory of one of the parishes in the region: Pellizzano. Pellizzano is a parish in the Val di Sole and right next to Malé (which Romeder calls "Maleit"). The parishes of the valley form a community, therefore we don't only have names from Pellizzano, but also from Malé and others. Please note: Romeder pretends that Malé should have a population of more than 50 per cent Ladins and the rest Germans, so we should see Ladin names and also some German names.

As I worked with the documents of the area, I can link to the inventory, which defeats Romeders assumptions.

The original document is in Latin, but the names speak for themselves: they are mostly romance, many even more Italian than Ladin - we see people like Pissolla, Bontempi, Gallina, Tocci etc., which clearly suggest an italianized presence in that area way before the 18th century (in this case: 15th century). We hardly encounter any germanic surname. In fcat, we don't even encounter any Ladin name (like suggested), but italian ones.

Let's have a look at Malé itself.

Here we encounter some Ladin names, like suspected: Bonadiman, Quitta, Cliod, Zonn and Magras, also some "Italian" ones like Tononi, Bevilacqua and Zanetti from locals, but we hardly find any germanic names again (with the exception of Visintainer, who is a "notaio" of the bishop of Trent).

Next thing: the German WIkipedia mentions Wurzer. Wurzer is not of scientific relevance.* In the book which is cited on WIkipedia, he even claims that Trent was "mostly German" until the 18th century, or had a very big German minority (which can't be taken seriously looking at the numbers I mentioned in my last post) In this case - like in others - his source is Stefan Schindele (Reste deutschen Volkstumes südlich der Alpen). Schindele also claims that German was spoken all the way down the Adige to Villafranca di Verona. It's based on the old theory that the german language islands in the Dolomites are parts of an old language continuum, when in fact the "Zimbern" transferred to trentine and veronese lands in the Middle Ages. To make things worse, Schindele is considered a propagandist: Michael Wedekind calls his work "very nationalistic" (scharf nationalistisch); he also exagerated the number of "Germanic" people in this area even in his own time. In 1901, only 3,000 people in the "7 Communities" spoke Cimbrian, whereas Schindele claims roughly 6,000-8,000 people spoke this South Bavarian dialect, when he published his book in 1904.

By the way: Schindele's argument that italian priests "Italianized" the Trentino can hardly be taken seriously, when the article (I linked in my last post) clearly states that there were still German priests for the Germans in the 18th century in the German quarter of Trent. Why would the bishop change the German priests in the rural lands, but tolerate them only some streets away? Also, there is no proof that even in theory a change from German priests to Italian priest would have an effect on the language spoken in an area. How would people in the periphery learn the language at all? Because they want to understand the preacher (because the rest of the mass is in latin)? The preacher adopts the language of the people to preach, it's not the other way around and it certainly would not help to "convert" the rural people to their language or culture.

__________
*Wurzer's book has not a scientific approach, and the theory mentioned above is not his own, but from another author.

Thank you for your detailed explanation and examination. I believe that should mostly have ended the debate.

As I said before this is not a hill I am gonna die on, especially since I have no personal stakes in the matter and as such I am very grateful for you to clear everything up.

 

[Arzack1112]

Any possibility of adding the Vatican or something similar for the papacy?

 

[Vispian]

Any possibility of adding the Vatican or something similar for the papacy?

it literally has the Curia IO and is the Papal States. Also the Holy See at the start date isnt even in Rome but Avignon

 

[evilon]

My perspective here is twofold: 1. What is relevant, 2. What can control what area.

I must admit that I don't know too much about the geography of Venice, but I'll assume that during a war, the venetian coastal/hinterland is fairly easily raidable by the Island(s) city of Venice, and as such the province wouldn't be considered "conquered" unless the island city itself is taken, unless the city agreed to it.

This leads me to two options (there might be more that I haven't thought of):

1. The whole location is treated as an island when it comes to military occupation, as control of the bay is dicated by the most relevant islands.
2. The location is split in two, so the city Venice can relinquish control of terra firma should they decide that is the best course of action, and the city location itself is regarded as an Island.

my 19,90kr (price of kroneis))

(edit: also, as someone who generally plays from the perspective of Milan, I don't mind having to create a fleet to be able to reclaim rightful Visconti clay)

 

[RDLenclave]

That's a fantastic map! As an italian from the south, I would suggest:
-Basilicata Province to change name into Lucania, that's its Historical name
-Locations of Lecce and Gallipoli to produce olives, it was and still is the main agricultural production good

 

[Inzano]

Hello,

I also made a summary of my three posts that give suggestions for the areas of the provinces of Carniola, Lower Styria, Gorizia, part of Friuli and Istria. Also included are three additional cards for amenities, topography and vegetation. I hope that according to the proposal, if not completely, it will be partially taken into account.

Province of Carniola:
Bled owned by Brixen
Škofja Loka owned by Fraising
Kranj owned by the Ortenburgs
Ljubljana owned by the Habsburgs
Postojna owned by the Habsburgs
Prem owned by Duino
Ribnica owned by the Ortenburgs
Mahovnik/Kočevje owned by the Ortenburgs
Novo mesto/Krško owned by the Habsburgs
Metlika owned by Counts of Gorizia

Province of Lower Styria:
Ivnik owned by Duino
Maribor owned by Habsburgs
Slovenj Gradec owned by Habsburgs
Ptuj owned by Salzburg
Celje owned by Counts of Cilli
Brežice owned by Counts of Cilli

Province of Gorizia/Goriška:
Tolmin owned by Aquileia
Idrija owned by Aquileia (Here is the second biggest mine of mercury in Europe)
Gorica owned by Counts of Gorizia

part of Province of Friuli:
Devin owned by Duino
Trst/Trieste owned by Trieste

Province of Istria:
Koper/Capodistria owned by Venetia (Many salt flats)
Rovinj/Rovingo owned by Venetia
Pula/Pola owned by Venetia
Labin/Albona owned by Venetia
Pazin/Pisino owned by Counts of Gorizia
Buzet/Pinguente owned by Aquileia

Goods:

Topography:

Vegetation:

 

[WeissRaben]

Mmmmmh. By 1337, the Lega Antiscaligera was in full swing, with at least Florence, Venice, Ferrara, and Mantua openly warring against Verona; Milan would jump in a scant few months later, joined by the Emperor, and Verona would be absolutely mauled, only being left in the possession of Verona and Vicenza by 1339. Is this ongoing war represented somehow? If yes, I can't see it.

 

[gulaschkoenig]

Ladin culture? Wow that is something I did not think you would include.

 

[LucaF.]

Mantua at the start of the gameplay should be a Ghibelline nation, because Luigi/Ludovico I Gonzaga was installed in the city after the coup against the Bonalcolsi family by Verona, this happened in 1328.

 

[LucaF.]

Northern Italy should be already in war at the start of the gameplay, because on 14 July 1336 the Republic of Venice and the Republic of Florence had created the Anti-Scaligera League, a military alliance to counter the expansionism of the lords of Verona, Albert II and Mastino II della Scala.
Also joining the League were Visconti of Milan, Este of Ferrara, Gonzaga of Mantua, Charles of Luxembourg (hereditary prince of Bohemia and future Holy Roman Emperor), John Henry of Luxembourg (margrave of Moravia, brother of Charles), and Margherita of Tirolo-Gorizia (countess of Tyrol, consort of John Henry).
The alliance lasted until 24 January 1339, when Mastino II della Scala surrendered to the coalition troops who arrived at the gates of Verona. The Peace of Venice signed on that date marked the definitive halt of Verona's expansionism in northern Italy and the sale of many Lombard and Venetian locations.
I don't know if this aspect could be represented in EU5 by the situation of the italian wars or if this can be bypassed by the mechanic of Guelph and Ghibelline (in this particular case there was an internal fight among Ghibelline nations), anyway i'm really curious to know how will be represented the decadence of Verona and if this can be independent about the Ghibelline influence in Italy.

 

[NucleaeCaesar]

It's amazing but one note: Arezzo in 1377 is still independent from Florence, though briefly (ended definitely in 1384) and in crisis.

I hope it will be represented in the game as an independent nation or some other sort, a troublesome subject to Florence maybe (not totally correct but still better).

 

[Mef]

It's amazing but one note: Arezzo in 1377 is still independent from Florence, though briefly (ended definitely in 1384) and in crisis.

I hope it will be represented in the game as an independent nation or some other sort, a troublesome subject to Florence maybe (not totally correct but still better).

The game starts in 1337, but yes, the city of Arezzo was independent until 1384.

However, it is worth mentioning that Ghibelline Arezzo lost the Battle of Campaldino against Guelph Florence in 1289 and while Florence took several forts in the region, they weren't able to take Arezzo itself so went back home with little gains.
Representing strong Florentine influence there isn't completely wrong, but an independent Arezzo would be more accurate.

 

[Balovanka]

I don't know if you have such an opportunity, but you can make the island itself a separate location for the troops. But only for the troops, to show the protection of the city from sieges. Of course, I do not know what plans you have for the movement of armies. I think it was possible to try to maintain the status of a single location in Venice, but also add historical piquancy.

 

[MahJohng]

I am delighted with how you have represented the "Marche" region, which is often overlooked in media and educational materials. I would like to suggest dividing the territory of Macerata into two playable nations, with the area between Pesaro Urbino and Ancona becoming a new nation. Jesi, a medieval city with a rich history of excommunications, imperial privileges, battles for territorial expansion (primarily against Ancona), and a remarkable degree of autonomy until 1447 when it was ceded to the Pope by Francesco Sforza.
Culturally, it would make sense for Jesi to be primarily Umbrian with Emilian influences, while Macerata would remain solely Umbrian.
I would also recommend removing the "Piceno" suffix from Ascoli, as it was not used until the mid-19th century.

 

[Karalis123]

I think the massif of Gennargentu in Sardinia can be portrayed as impassable land. It reaches 1834 m and it’s, well, quite impassable.

It is the red colored area in the map:

This would separate locations that shouldn’t be directly connected.

This is how it would appear within the locations setup I’ve suggested last Friday.
It would separate Ogliastra from Barbagia of Nuoro and other northern areas (which is how it is in real life) and so you have to either pass along the coast or choose a more southern route.

(Maybe it can be made more compact by uniting the little parts below to the rest)

It can be expanded to block also the coastal path as traveling trough this area is only possible today thanks to modern artificial tunnels.

 

[Matis07MIB]

Now the only thing we are missing, is borders following rivers and other natural borders. No more horrible Cleve county borders. Provinces too please.

 

[Panino al-Salam]

Can u Post sources about Charles and John Henry intervention? I looked into the Anti-Scaligera League and found nothing except some mention in wikipedia and some cities' history like Belluno

 

[NucleaeCaesar]

Representing strong Florentine influence there isn't completely wrong, but an independent Arezzo would be more accurate.

Sorry, I remembered incorrectly the start date. If the start is 1337, the city was sold for money for 10 years to Florence by Pietro Tarlati da Pietramala (also named Pier Saccone Tarlati) but it regained the independence after the expired term.

So it will be much more accurate to represent Arezzo as a subject of Florence with an event (or decision) that release the state in 1347