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Tinto Maps #7 - 21st of June 2024 - Anatolia

Hello everyone, and welcome to the seventh edition of Tinto Maps! I am once again asking for your support back to the duty of showing a new region of the map of the super secret Project Caesar, which this week is Anatolia!

Countries:
Countries.jpg

A beautifully divided Anatolia! The disintegration of the Sultanate of Rûm in the 13th century, caused by the Mongol invasion, led to multiple Turkish Beyliks grabbing power over their area. Probably the strongest in 1337 is the Ottoman one, founded by the Turkoman leader Osman Ghazi, but there are other strong contenders such as the Eretnids, the Germiyanids, or the Karamanids, which will be fighting for hegemony over the region. You might also notice that the Byzantine Empire//Eastern Roman Empire//Basileía Rhōmaíōn//[insert here your favorite naming option] still holds a few positions in Anatolia, the most notable being the city of Philadelphia. Apart from them, other interesting countries in the region are the Despotate of Trebizond, held by the Komnenoi, the Armenian Kingdom of Cilicia, and, of course, The-country-known-in-another-IP-as-Hisn-Kayfa, the Ayyubid remnant in al-Jazira. And you might also notice some Genoese outposts, making them important players as well.

Dynasties:
Dynasties.png

The dynastic map is pretty straightforward, as a different dynasty rules each Beylik. We have fixed the issue with the random dynasty names, so no more weird 'the XXXX of XXXX' dynastic names anymore. To spice things up, we could maybe start a Byzantine discussion: Palaiologos, or Komnenos?

Locations:
Locations.jpg

As usual, please consider that dynamic location naming is not yet a thing in this region, and therefore the inconsistencies in the language used. As an additional note of caution, please don’t use the Aegean Islands as a reference or benchmark for comparison, as a review of them is something that we’ve got on our list of ‘to do’. You may be able to see that the location density in the region is gradual, from denser coastal regions to bigger inland ones.

Provinces:
Provinces.png

We have changed the coloring of the provinces, making them more different, and easier to understand, though. Apart from that, suggestions in this matter are welcomed, as usual.

Terrain:
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The terrain in Anatolia is quite interesting and unique, as it’s composed of very different features: the central Anatolian Plateau, with a colder climate and more sparse vegetation, is opposed to the rugged and more forested coastlines to the north and south, while only having fluvial flatlands to the west, and in Cilicia (an area that always has been a choke point between Anatolia and Syria. And to the east, the territory becomes increasingly more mountainous, as it approaches the Caucasus.

Cultures:
Cultures.jpg

Anatolia is the first region of the Middle East with cultural and religious minorities added, just in time for this Tinto Maps, so we can have endless discussions about the divide between the Greek and Turkish cultures! Hurray! Now seriously, we’ve made what we think is the most accurate division for 1337, given the scarcity of data. The stripes point to a variation of the pop percentages in each location, from let’s say 70% of Greeks in Izmit or Bursa, to 80% of Turks in Ankara or Konya. We have also added some subdivisions of these cultures, with the Pontic and Cappadocian Greeks; and the Turkomans (you might note a majority of them around Sivas and Malatya), that portray more a ‘class//social grouping’ divide than an ethnic or language divide, as these Turkoman pops are always tribesmen, while we consider the settled population as Turkish. Other than that, we have a good amount of Armenians distributed between the areas of Cilicia and Armenia; Laz people to the north; and Kurds to the east (the brownish-greenish culture). Also, please ignore the chunk of Syria that appears, as the minorities there are not yet done.

Religions:
Religions.jpg

We’re back to interesting religious divisions! We have in Anatolia Orthodox, Sunni, Miaphysite, and Nestorian pops. And if you wonder what are those pink stripes in Thrace, they are a Paulician minority.

Raw Materials:
Raw Materials.jpg

There are some interesting materials distributed all over Anatolia, such as Alum (which was a main export to Italy, usually handled by the merchant republics), Silk, Marble, or Copper. And if you’re wondering about the Spices, they were previously Saffron.

Markets:
Markets.jpg

The market centers of the region are Constantinople to the west, Trebizond to the north, and Damascus to the south. Nothing speaks against a Turkish Beylik conquering one or all of them, or creating a new market center, probably in the middle of the Anatolian Plateau, although probably it will require some infrastructure to make it fully functional.

Location and Country Population:
Pops Locations.jpg

Pops Country.jpg

And populations. Byzantium has some edge over each of the Beylikz, but not if they ally with each other, or if they ally with its Balkanic rivals… Also, have I heard about a 66K Ayyubid challenge?

That’s all for today! We’ll most likely be uploading the French feedback results by the end of next week or at the start of the following one (as next week there's an important bank holiday for this company, Midsommar St. John's Day, and some people will be on vacation a few days), and in the meantime, we'll also be reading and answering your feedback about Anatolia. And next Friday, we will be taking a look at Russia. See you then!

PS: I had a flight today that was delayed, therefore the delay on the DD until an (interesting) hour in which I'll be available for replying.
 
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I'm curious, perhaps a native Turkish speaker can help me out, if we can have the same word represented differently in both surnames and dynasty names would it be any better? E.g. The name as "Dave Karamanoğlu", belonging to the "Karamanoğulları Dynasty"?
Yes, this is correct, see my post above. Although Karamanoğlu should come before Dave.
 
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As usual, here are my comments on topography and climate:

Climate
- Oceanic seems underrepresented along the Northern coast and Western hills.
- Ahtopol (Byz) should also be oceanic.
- Arctic zones are designated as impassable, but for consistency's sake it would be nice to mark them as such.

Tinto's designKöppen 1901-1930 reclassified to Tinto's design
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3.Koppen1900s.png

Topography
Eastern Anatolia
  • I LOVE the way you represented the Cilician gates! But please extend the same love to the Amanian gate ;)
    • Xarani needs to be largely impassable (northeastern half)
    • Anavarza and Kapan should have to maneuver through Ulnia
    • Ulnia should be hills instead of Mountains
  • Centrally, I'd switch some province terrains around:
    • Siran -> mountains
    • Bayburt -> plateau
    • Zara+Hafik+Sivas -> plateau
    • border of Divrigi/Afin/Arapgir needs rework to include the mountain massif
    • Kemah -> mountains
    • Tercan -> hills
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Western Anatolia
  • The border between Beyschir - Manavgat seems to be rather impassable in real life, while it's a plateau-flatlands transition in game.
  • The 2 mountain ranges in the Aydin Province are neglected. Perhaps an east-west impassable could emulate the fact that armies need to go around them?
  • - Akcakoca (North) should be hills instead of flatlands
    - Inegol-Bursa-Domanic needs an impassable range on their borders
    - Northern Edremit needs an impassable in the northernmost part
Linear DEM (0-3500 m)Tinto's designReclassified terrain based on ruggedness index
TM7-1-DEM.png
TM7-2-Tinto.png
TM7-3-TRI.png
 
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I'm curious, perhaps a native Turkish speaker can help me out, if we can have the same word represented differently in both surnames and dynasty names would it be any better? E.g. The name as "Dave Karamanoğlu", belonging to the "Karamanoğulları Dynasty"?
"-oğlu" is "son of", "-oğulları" is "sons of". It would never be Dave Karamanoğulları but Dave Karamanoğlu, but you could say Karamanoğlu dynasty, Karamanoğulları dynasty or Karaman dynasty. I think oğulları makes the most sense.
 
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I'm curious, perhaps a native Turkish speaker can help me out, if we can have the same word represented differently in both surnames and dynasty names would it be any better? E.g. The name as "Dave Karamanoğlu", belonging to the "Karamanoğulları Dynasty"?
As a native Turkish speaker this sounds good to me.
 
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I don't think Ottomans should be able to form Roman Empire, for one they never claimed to be a successor of Roman Empire rather than the Possessor of Roman Lands and Sovereign of Roman People. These are vastly different concepts especially in the Persianate and Turco-Mongol Ottoman dynastic tradition and legitimacy.

I am very curious if Ottomans will have unique institutions to be able to convert tribal people to settled people. That would be a very interesting dynamic since a lot of political establishment and will was concerned about turning nomads into settled people even while giving nomads legal rights over grazing lands through precedence and consistency. Not entirely same but somewhat similar concept would be if Ottomans would be able to convert foreign elites into Ottoman elites. However these questions are outside the scope of the map thread I think.
At least some of the Ottoman emperors did include in their list of titles Kaiser of Rome. It seems to me that at least some of them claimed to be the Emperor of Rome. (Whether I think their claim is correct, I have not decided)
 
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"-oğlu" is "son of", "-oğulları" is "sons of". It would never be Dave Karamanoğulları but Dave Karamanoğlu, but you could say Karamanoğlu dynasty, Karamanoğulları dynasty or Karaman dynasty. I think oğulları makes the most sense.
Just for readability for the average person, "Karaman Dynasty" definitely looks the best out of those. Especially compared to "Karamanoğulları Dynasty"
 
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Milder colours in more natural shades would have been more appropriate. Or is it important to have this particular look for some reason? I understand the desire for clear distinctiveness, but is it necessary to choose these particular colours?

Ah yes on the map mode most people will look at for a few seconds at a time where distinctiveness and clear boundaries need to be marked so people know what belongs where. Especially for those who may experience varying types of colour blindness or blindness as a whole.

Sure the crayon esque opacity can be turned down, but all it needs some filters/layers to help it not feel like a colouring book
 
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I'm curious, perhaps a native Turkish speaker can help me out, if we can have the same word represented differently in both surnames and dynasty names would it be any better? E.g. The name as "Dave Karamanoğlu", belonging to the "Karamanoğulları Dynasty"?
Doesn’t sound weird. I’d say Dave Karamanoğlu belonging to the Karamanoğulları Dynasty is actually the correct way to do it. I’m not an expert on the dynastic stuff of the Beyliks though, just a humble Turk.
 
View attachment 1151388

Thank you for another batch of amazing maps and hard work on this game, as always!
But I do have one critical remark. It's probably already been discussed, but this image again shows it very clearly: the color palette seems inappropriate for this type of game. It doesn't look serious, adult. There's too much pink and purple, and the colors in general are too bright, carnival-like, like some sort of children online game. But above all, it doesn't feel historical! They don't give the impression of a historical map, and therefore go against the basic pillars of the design. Milder colours in more natural shades would have been more appropriate. Or is it important to have this particular look for some reason? I understand the desire for clear distinctiveness, but is it necessary to choose these particular colours?
I have to disagree.

There is a distinction.
- The geographic mapmode & and the political mapmode might should be done according to your wishes and helping immersion.
- Other mapmodes (provinnce, location, raw materials, religions, etc.) must go for clearity and readability. And while I am not color-blind (to my knowledge), the first few province maps were horrible and not really clear. In this second group of mapmodes, I must recognize, whether two provinces are neighboring, or whether its Alum, Mercury or Copper and not guess.

Two Remarks:
- My point is made by the repeated questions, whether some tags are subjects or not, because their colors are to close.
- Having said that; perhaps they went from almost monochrome shades to almost clownishly screaming colors. So I would not complain, if they did tone it down quite a bit. However there should be at least an option for clear view.
 
Just for readability for the average person, "Karaman Dynasty" definitely looks the best out of those. Especially compared to "Karamanoğulları Dynasty"
Whatever they go with, consistency matters the most. I would also like to see the Asian name order in Turkoman beys' names. Karamanoğlu İbrahim Bey, Aydınoğlu Umur Bey is how we refer to them in Turkish. Not İbrahim Bey Karamanoğlu or Bey İbrahim Karamanoğlu.
 
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It isn't important much but naming the province Kadirli is anachronistic because the name Kadirli derives from Kars-I Zulkadiriye which is named after few centuries later after the Ottoman conquest and means Kars of Dulkadirids(for not confusing with Kars on the east). I am not sure but original name should be Kars or Karspazar or Pazaryeri probably Karspazar makes most sense. And if someone restores Roman Empire or maybe conquer as byzantium with dynamic name it should be Flaviapolis I think.
 
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The black locations are wasteland in the location map. I noticed in all these maps, lakes are black. Is this currently a placeholder and you'll add lakes later to locations? I do see you have added the lakes in the other map modes.
 
what did you go with syriac instead of for instance assyrian? syriac is a language.

btw, i dont know when you will show mesopotamia, but i think there were still syriac speaking muslims (before being arabized) there still. if syriac/aramaic-speakers are a culture, they wouldnt stricly be christians i think.
It seems that generally they have been using language as a shorthand for culture and then making some changes after that if they want to.
 
Since the culture of the middle east is being worked on right now I figure its appropriate for me to post this essay I've been working on for the past hour.


Azerbaijani culture should be in the Iranian culture group rather than the Oghuz culture group at the game start.

The Classical-Era inhabitants of Azerbaijan were the Azeri people of the Iranic ethno-linguistic family. These people had been under Persian cultural influence for 1500 years at the time of Project Caesar's game start. From the rule by the Achaemeneids to the rule of the Parthians, to the rule of the Sassanids, Azerbaijan had been part of the Iranian heartland. They were a strong part of the Zoroastrian community. Even after the Muslim conquests of the Caucuses and Persia, the Azeri people still were a part of Persian cultural practices such as having "local rulers called shāhanshāhs" (https://www.britannica.com/place/Azerbaijan/Government-and-social-conditions#ref44296).

It was only less than 300 years before the game-start when the process of Turkicization of the area began. The main influx of Turks to the area was during the Mongol conquest of the region (https://www.britannica.com/topic/Azerbaijani-people), less than a century before game-start. To say that only around two centuries' worth of cultural assimilation could completely switch the culture of the area from the multi-millennium-old Iranian institutions to Turkic ones would be untrue.

Even after 1337, Iranian cultural aspects were prevalent in Azeri society, such as the Azeri's adoption of Shia Islam. And geographically, much cultural syncrecy occurred between Persians and Azeris in the timeline of Project Caesar. This includes the Safavid Dynasty of Iran, an ethnic Azeri dynasty that still was a member of the Iranian culture group.


Saying 200 years of Turkic migration and Turkic language in the area would make Azeris a part of the Oghuz culture group would be akin to saying that Iranian culture should be considered as a part of the Arab culture family because there were two centuries of Arab migration and use of the Arabic language in Iran.


A possible solution could be to label Azeris as 'Turco-Iranian' and put them in the Iranian culture group. And maybe, depending on if the area is controlled more by Iranians or Turks, later in the game there could be an event to either make 'Turco-Iranian' a part of the Oghuz group and rename them to 'Azerbaijani', or to integrate them more into Iranian culture group and rename them to 'Azeri' like their Classical-Era Iranic ancestors.

I am not against representing the Turkicization and growing Turkish influence in the area. There should be an event, decision, or mechanic that represents the Turkicization of Azerbaijan. I just want the game to be realistic and not brush over not only the historical Azeri inclusion as an Iranic ethnic group but the great cultural syncrecy between Azeris and Persians after the spread of Islam into the region. Claiming that Azeris at this time were either completely Turkic or Iranic would be untrue. Even in the present day, you see much cultural syncrecy between the Azeri and Persian people. The modern Azerbaijani language symbolizes the Azeri culture as it combines elements of Persian and Turkish together.

So please Tinto, don't make the culture of this area just like the black-and-white system that Eu4 had. In my opinion, Ck3 (with the DLCs) does a really good job representing culture, especially through the "Hybrid Culture" system. As much as I hope the Project Caesar culture system will be akin to the CK3 system, I just wish it would show at the very least how one culture can take aspects from two different culture families.
Rather than having Azeri culture being "Iranian" in the game, we should have both a Turkic Azeri and Iranian Tat people (or perhaps called Shirvani) to represent the Persian speakers of Shirvan.

Also, the name Azeri/Azerbaijani for the Turkic population of modern Azerbaijan is wildly anachronistic, technically, as they didn't call themselves that until the the 20th century. That said, it's not easy to come up with an alternative because they mostly just called themselves Turks prior to this. One possibility is "Ajemi/Acemi," or Ajem-Turkic, which technically means "Persian Turkic" but is what outsiders called their language within the timeframe of the game.
 
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It seems like the churches of the West Syriac Rite and East Syriac Rite are combined into one "Nestorian" religion, which historically only refers to and reflects the theology of the East Syriac Rite - these are two wholly separate denominations, as different as Roman Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy. I think it would make a lot more sense to separate it into two denominations. If not, it would technically be more accurate to place West Syriacs under the "Miaphysite" religion because they adhere to a miaphysite Christology, and not the prosopic union taught by Nestorius and followed by the churches of the East Syriac Rite. These are two separate denominations which have been at times bitterly and violently opposed, with opposite Christologies, their most substantial similarity being their confusingly similar names.
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