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Tinto Maps #9 - 5th of July 2024 - Carpathia and the Balkans

Greetings, and welcome to another Tinto Maps! This week we will be taking a look at Carpathia and the Balkans! It will most likely be an interesting region to take a look at, with a lot of passion involved… So I’ll just make an initial friendly reminder to keep a civil discussion, as in the latest Tinto Maps, as that’s the easiest way for us to read and gather your feedback, and improve the region in a future iteration. And now, let’s start with the maps!

Countries:
Countries.png

Carpathia and the Balkans start in a very interesting situation. The Kingdom of Hungary probably stands as the most powerful country in 1337, but that only happened after the recovery of the royal power enforced by Charles I Robert of the House of Anjou, who reined in the powerful Hungarian nobility. To the south, the power that is on the rise is the Kingdom of Serbia, ruled by Stefan Uroš IV Dušan, who has set his eyes on his neighbors to expand his power. The Byzantine Empire, meanwhile, is in a difficult position, as internal struggles ended in Andronikos III being crowned sole emperor, at the cost of dividing the realm; both Serbia and Bulgaria have in the past pressed over the bordering lands, while the Ottomans have very recently conquered Nicomedia. The control over the Southern Balkans is also very fractioned, with a branch of the Anjou ruling over Albania, the Despotate of Epirus under the nominal rule of Byzantium as a vassal, Athens, Neopatria and Salona as vassals of the Aragonese Kings of Sicily, Anjou protectorates over Achaia and Naxos, and only nominal Byzantine control over Southern Morea. It’s also noticeable the presence of the Republics of Venice and Genoa, which control several outposts over the Adriatic and Aegean Seas. A final note: in previous maps, Moldavia was shown in the map, but we’ve removed it from it, and it will most likely spawn through a chain of events in the 1340s.

Dynasties:
Dynasties.png

The House of Anjou rules over Naples, Hungary, Albania, Achaia, and Cephalonia; they’re truly invested in their push for supremacy over the region. Apart from that, each country is ruled by different dynasties, except for Athens and Neopatria, ruled by the House of Aragón-Barcelona.

Locations:
Locations 1.png

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This week we’re posting the general map of the region, along with some more detailed maps, that can be seen if you click on the spoiler button. A starting comment is that the location density of Hungary is noticeably not very high; the reason is that it was one of the first European maps that we made, and we based it upon the historical counties. Therefore, I’m already saying in advance that this will be an area that we want to give more density when we do the review of the region; any help regarding that is welcome. Apart from that, you may notice on the more detailed maps that Crete appears in one, while not being present in the previous one; because of the zooming, the island will appear next week along with Cyprus, but I wanted to make an early sneak peek of the locations, given that is possible with this closer zoom level. Apart from that, I’m also saying in advance that we will make an important review of the Aegean Islands, so do not take them as a reference for anything, please.

Provinces:
Provinces.png

Provinces! Nothing outstanding to be commented on here; as usual, we’re open to any feedback regarding them.

Terrain:
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Terrain! The climate of the region is mostly divided between Continental and Mediterranean, with some warmer and some colder regions. Regarding the topography, the Carpathian mountains are famously important and strategic, while the Balkans are a quite hilly and mountainous region, which is also greatly covered by woods and forests.

Cultures:
Cultures.png

Here comes the fun part of the DD: The cultural division of the Balkans! A few comments:
  1. Hungary is full of different minorities. Transylvania, especially, is an interesting place: there we have a mix of ‘Hungarians’, ‘Transylvanians’ (which are the Romanian-speaking inhabitants of the region), ‘Transylvanian Germans’, and ‘Szekely’ people.
  2. We have divided the Southern Slavic-speaking region into their dialectal families of Slovene, Croatian, Bosnian, and Serbian.
  3. The Southern Balkans are mostly divided among Bulgarian, Albanian, and Greek cultures.
  4. We’re also portraying plenty of other cultures, such as Dalmatians, Aromanians, Sclavenes, Arvanites, Cumans, Jasz, or Ashkenazi and Romanyoti Jews.

Religions:
Religion.png

This one is also interesting. Apart from the divide between Western Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy, we have the Krstjani in Bosnia, Bogomils (the pink stripes both in Bosnia and Macedonia), and Paulicians in Thrace. The Jewish populations do not pass the threshold percentage to appear on the map, but there are plenty of communities across the region.

Raw Materials:
Raw Materials.png

The materials of the region. Something very noticeable is the richness of minerals, with plenty of Iron, Copper, Tin, Lead, Gold, and Silver. Specifically, Slovakia is very rich, and you definitely want more settlers to migrate to the region, and exploit its resources. The region is also very rich in agricultural resources, as you can see.

Markets:
Markets.png

The region is mostly divided among four markets: Venice, Pest, Ragusa and Constantinople.

Country and Location population:
Population 1.png

Population 2.png

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Population 4.png
Country and location population (which I’ve also sub-divided, and is under the Spoiler button).

And that’s all of today! I hope that you find the region interesting; we certainly think that it is. Next week we will go further south, and we will take a look at the Syrian Levant and Egypt. Cheers!
 
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My only complaint/desire would be for the impassible mountains to be a bit more prevalent in Greece. Imperator really nailed it when it came to this imo, though Im sure the ability of armies to move through and people to live in these places certainly became easier in the 1600 years between the games, it would still be nice to get a bit more movement hindrances in the game as it was a great part of Imp. :)

Nah Imperator is way too aggressive. The Pindus impassable there covered over several historical regions which were remote but passable and exchanged by the successors and it also covers poleis in the Peloponnese in Arcadia.
 
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There was already a strong Bosnian identity in the Late Middle Ages, with a Banate that became a Kingdom, a Church, and a dialect of their own.
Also there is no Evidence that Krsajani were as spread out as it is shown over here, Hum should be mostly orthodox while western Bosnian provinces were catholic, dont get me started on western Serbia.
 
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1. We have divided the Southern Slavic-speaking region into their dialectal families of Slovene, Croatian, Bosnian, and Serbian
I don't have anything against those cultures, but it is not a dialectal division. "Croatian", "Serbian" and "Bosnian" are parts of one Serbo-Croatian and all of them are based on *one* dialect - Shtokavian. Besides that, there are Kajkavian (much closer to Slovene linguistically), Chakavian (Dalmatian coast) and Torlakian (part of the so-called Balkan Sprachbund) dialects. So there were no "Bosnian", "Serbian" or "Croatian" dialectal groups at that time. I know it is pretty hard to determine "cultural" borders in the medieval, especially between really similar and today very divided people, but the map looks a bit too modern or political in some places, e.g. Serbs dominating in Vojvodina with Albanians being a substantial minority in Kosovo, Bosnia being practically monoreligious and borders of Greek in thr north looking a bit too much like after the 20th century resettlements.
Serbo_croatian_dialects_historical_distribution.png
 
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Finally a point I already made in a separate thread. I think the locations in the Kingdom of Hungary, Moldavia and Wallachia are absolutely massive compared to every single surrounding area. I think it looks absolutely atrocious.

The reason I think in the case of the Kingdom of Hungary you have chosen the counties as locations. Thats I think a very bad decisions - the counties should be the provinces. There never existed a somogy province encompassing all of southern Transdanubia. Somogy county was your Segesd and Somogyvár location.

I suggest a rework of the kingdom of Hungary based on this map depincting the Kingdom during the reign of Louis I (1342-1382):
View attachment 1158678
I wholeheartedly agree with this, also I want to point out the shape of Lake Balaton to the devs, the in-game map shows the modern coast, but back then it was much larger than it is now.
 
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Not Map related, but a flavour suggestion: could you do a DHE that causes the Albanians to migrate in Italy (expecially Sicily, Calabria and Lucania) if Albania is conquered by an islamic power?
if the mechanics for the game work correctly, then unaccepted pops can migrate to areas in the same market (thats what the developers said earlier right?) and then they'll migrate to southern italy like they did in real life. Maybe add like an immigrant attraction modifier like in victoria 2, but pop specific. That would be ideal without requiring a whole DHE
 
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Is the province borders of Thrace based on modern day borders, especially the Edirne one?
Historically, the administrive area centered in Edirne had both side of the Maritsa
as can be seen in the Byzantine theme system and Ottoman vilayet system
IMG_7718.png
IMG_7717.png

Thus, I suggest making Edirne Province in composed of locations in both sides of the river. I know both late Ottoman period administrive division system and Byzantine theme system which stopped being used is not accurate to portray I posted them to show Edirne province should be on the both sides of the river and I am kinda annoyed by the Second Balkan War looking Edirne province tbh.
However, my suggestions for new province borders( for thrace and macedonia) would be like in the theme map since I couldnt find a better one and I think it would be more accurate than modern day looking province borders.

My spesific suggestions (by consideration of Ottoman and Byzantine administrive divisions and my taste of shapes ofc)

- Gallipoli peninsula was part of the same administrive division with agean islands in both Byzantine and Ottoman administrive systems, thus locations of gallipoli and rhaedestus should be part of the aegean province or north aegean etc.
- locations of Ahtopol, medea, Arcadiopolis,
Tzou…, and Saranta should be part of the Arcadiopolis/ Lüleburgaz province
- Province of Edirne should be made of these
IMG_7720.jpeg

- And province of Kavala made of these
IMG_7721.jpeg

-and merge the remaining parts of Lower macedonia and Thessoloniki province and maybe call it Macedonia or Thessoloniki directly
- I would also want the location of Dimetoca divided into two, Location of Kardzhali and location of Dimetoka
Kardzhali ( Achridos during Byzantine times) was an important place and also later for Ottomans, thus you can cut west side of Dimetoca a bit and small east side of smolyan location and make a location of Achridos there
 
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It was a fairly small minority, but will the Carpathian Germans in Upper Hungary be represented in game?
Yes, we have Carpathian Germans represented.
 
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Hello! I have a question... It is not necessarily related to this TM, but rather TM#4, sorry for that.

Since Poland and Baltic region is going to be reviewed for some more time, I wanted to ask, is there a releasable country "Lauenburg and Bütow Land", from the locations of Lębork (Lauenburg) and Bytów (Bütow)? It is holds importance to me, so I wanted to know if it will make an appearance in Project Caesar...
And if it is not implemented yet, can I post some info about it in the TM#4 thread, will it still be relevant?
Feel free to post there that, yes.
 
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Looks like there are no marshes in Hungary, which is very inaccurate. The current setup seems to reflect modern circumstances, but the Pannonian Plain only acquired its current look in the 18th/19th centuries after numerous engineering projects that redirected rivers and drained swamps to make place for more arable land. Before that vast portions of the plain were covered by marshes. The shape of Lake Balaton was also different. Here is a map of the Carpathian Basin before the engineering projects:

7PrkehqW9KNB1pt1Cks.jpeg

Key:
darkest blue - current water surfaces
dark blue - areas under water during the majority of/the entire year
light blue - areas under water during regular floods

Aside from that, the market center should be in Buda, not Pest.
 
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Bulgaria not owning the Timok valley is honestly the most perplexing and bizarre thing to me about this map. Hungary invaded Bulgaria in 1365 and occupied Vidin for 4 years, how on earth did they do that if the two countries didn't share a border? Also, Pirot was in Bulgarian hands in 1337, my post on page 2 has the source.
Pirot region was not part of Bulgaria since 1330 tho, we know border of Vidin was due to Ottomans keeping former borders and using them as internal ones. Also Prince Lazar also had his vassal Momchilo built his fortress there.

https://www.academia.edu/40769349/Живојин_Андрејић_1_Српска_средњовековна_жупа_Тимок_2_Живопис_припрате_и_у_кулама_цркве_Свете_Богородице_у_Доњој_Каменици
 
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And what are the intentions for default location names? So that we would know whether to correct inconsistencies or are they as intended.
The default will most likely be 'Wikipedia standard' (that means, either English or their current endonym). There might be some exceptions for this, of course, but we also want to have a game rule set for 'full English' play, if some players prefer that to the cultural dynamic names. Feel free to post inconsistencies, and we will try to have them incorporated.
 
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1. We think that this makes for a bit better cultural divide (and, yes, in that case, it would probably be better to have Moldavian differentiated over time). In any case, we're open to feedback, and reviewing this specific topic.
2. We're aware, but it's a bit tricky; there's a group of people which are already in contact with @SulphurAeron (shot!), to help us portray the Hungarian wetlands on the best possible way.
Splitting the huge locations into smaller ones would give more place for detail such as that, as well as hills in places such as Veszprém and Pécs.

Why do you think it makes for better cultural divide, by the way? Transylvanian Romanians were pretty much identical in their culture during that era to their relatives over the mountains. Is there perhaps a mechanical reason for it?

In case you keep it though, please change its colour to one that's not that similar to Transylvanian Saxon's (or, change Transylvanian Saxon's colour)
 
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Also several important gold/silver mines are missing in Transylvania. During Rome they where called Alburnus Maior, present day mine is called Roșia Montană. Specifically to Hungary times such locations as: Bánya (translates to "mine") and Bányaváros ("mining town")
*You will need to translate to english, take atention not to confuse literal translation of the name to word mine

"The area around the Transylvanian village of Rosia Montana in Romania has been mined for some 2,000 years. But it still contains the largest gold and silver reserves in Europe." https://hungarytoday.hu/transylvanias-gold-mining-area-verespatak-world-heritage/
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