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Tinto Talks #21 - 17th of July 2024

Hello Everyone and Welcome to another Tinto Talks! This is one of those Happy Wednesdays when we talk about the top secret game with the codename of Project Caesar, so that we can listen to your feedback.

This week we are going to take a look at how exploration will work in Project Caesar. In previous GSG games we’ve done, exploration has primarily been done by units, giving them manual orders to move, or sometimes automated orders, to explore places on the map to reveal. We have a new system that works separately to go away from this and separate the military from exploration.

Exploration in this game works entirely on Areas, and for those of you who don’t remember one of our earliest Tinto Talks, an Area contains a group of Provinces, and a Province contains a group of locations, so it should be about 25-75 locations in an area.

Explorations exist in the “geopolitics tab” together with colonization, maritime and privateering.

exploration_ui.png

You need a proper helmet to be a good explorer!

To get an area explored you need to start an exploration for it. You can only explore areas that are adjacent to an area you have already explored, and if it is an inland area, you can only explore if it is adjacent to an area you own.

Starting an exploration mission for an area costs a significant amount of gold, but there is also an additional cost to start a mission depending on whether it's a land area or a sea area. For a land area, you need manpower, and for sea areas you need sailors.

You also have a constant upkeep cost of gold for your exploration mission, and during your explorations, you may get events related to the exploration.

Missions always have a risk of failure, resetting all progress, and the characters involved can die.

The administrative ability of the leader of the expedition reduces its upkeep cost, while diplomatic ability impacts the success chance, and military ability impacts how quickly the exploration can be done.

attributes.png

Incompetent at a lot in life, Matias redeeming quality was that he failed fast...

While most characters in the game can be assigned to explore an area, there are some characters that are far superior. These are ‘explorers’, which besides just being innately better at exploring, they also have different unique traits making them better or worse at certain aspects of exploring. While there are some explorers that join certain countries through historical events, there is also the possibility to recruit a new explorer. This requires the “Commision Explorers” advance in the Age of Discovery, that is early in the advances tree for the “New World” Institution.


Speaking of advances, there are a few advances throughout the game that speed up explorations, or make them less prone to failures. At the start of the game, at near range, an Exploration led by someone who is not an Explorer may take a few years to complete, but as you get more advanced, this will become shorter in time.

The trade winds on the sea lanes also have a significant impact on how quickly an area can be explored. We have designed the oceanic locations of Project Caesar to take into account the historical ‘sea lanes’ that were used by ships and fleets during the Age of Sail, taking advantage of their knowledge of winds and sea currents. These sea lanes shaped the way explorations were done, as their mastery was critical to the success (or failure) of an expedition.

route_to_the_indies.png
A purple advance is a unique one, and this is one that is unique to anyone in the Western Europe sub-continent in the Age of Renaissance.

If you have built a spy network in another country, you can use it to steal some of their maps.

As an exploration mission is finished, the knowledge of its discoveries will start spreading to other countries that have the capital on the same sub-continent as the explorer. Currently, the map spread takes about 150 years.

Stay tuned, as next week we will go deep into how the combat for armies will work.
 
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we are not decided 100% on the rule yet.
Depending on how colonisation works wouldn't it make the most sense you just need one location (if colonies spread form a starting location) and you can only start a new colony in an inland area if you own enough in a previous area?

At least this way it kinda stays the same but a majority or the entire area would mean you need to eliminate most people living in your area to continue on exploring even if you don't want more than a trading outpost.
 
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Another question. At the start any country sees only a part of the world (obviously). In EU4 it was strange why some countries don't see some regions. Say, Byzantium has stollen silk technology from China, but you don't China or even half a way to China. Or they don't see middle-East hordes with traces of Greek culture (Afganistan, Uzbekistan and so on). Did they forget Alexander's expeditions?
Why don't you add another map mode to weekly Tinto maps, where you show us the cartography of some countries at 1337? I think it might have as much discussions as cultures map-mode.
 
Will there be a way for knowledge of locations to spread without having to explore it or steal maps? Such as through trade

yes. as I mentioned in the TT
 
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1721223231139.png

What's this Hudlapudlasomethingsomething? It's clearly supposed to be named Upstate New York, named after the greatest city of the greatest country on Earth. You also missed a DC area. That's our capital, bro.
 
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I'm not sure I like the fact that maps only spread across a subcontinent. It's always bothered me that in EU4, playing as the Incas you'd just never naturally get maps for the old world, not even in the 19th century. It seems very gamey to have this 'subcontinent' limit. IMO something like "maps only spread across land directly connected to the capital" would make more sense, or even just by location control. It's not like India wouldn't hear of the New World from the Europeans in the 18-19th centuries.

Also curious, will it be possible to make a treaty with another country to be able to explore areas adjacent to locations THEY own?
 
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Hello Everyone and Welcome to another Tinto Talks! This is one of those Happy Wednesdays when we talk about the top secret game with the codename of Project Caesar, so that we can listen to your feedback.

This week we are going to take a look at how exploration will work in Project Caesar. In previous GSG games we’ve done, exploration has primarily been done by units, giving them manual orders to move, or sometimes automated orders, to explore places on the map to reveal. We have a new system that works separately to go away from this and separate the military from exploration.

Exploration in this game works entirely on Areas, and for those of you who don’t remember one of our earliest Tinto Talks, an Area contains a group of Provinces, and a Province contains a group of locations, so it should be about 25-75 locations in an area.

Explorations exist in the “geopolitics tab” together with colonization, maritime and privateering.

View attachment 1164398
You need a proper helmet to be a good explorer!

To get an area explored you need to start an exploration for it. You can only explore areas that are adjacent to an area you have already explored, and if it is an inland area, you can only explore if it is adjacent to an area you own.

Starting an exploration mission for an area costs a significant amount of gold, but there is also an additional cost to start a mission depending on whether it's a land area or a sea area. For a land area, you need manpower, and for sea areas you need sailors.

You also have a constant upkeep cost of gold for your exploration mission, and during your explorations, you may get events related to the exploration.

Missions always have a risk of failure, resetting all progress, and the characters involved can die.

The administrative ability of the leader of the expedition reduces its upkeep cost, while diplomatic ability impacts the success chance, and military ability impacts how quickly the exploration can be done.

View attachment 1164399
Incompetent at a lot in life, Matias redeeming quality was that he failed fast...

While most characters in the game can be assigned to explore an area, there are some characters that are far superior. These are ‘explorers’, which besides just being innately better at exploring, they also have different unique traits making them better or worse at certain aspects of exploring. While there are some explorers that join certain countries through historical events, there is also the possibility to recruit a new explorer. This requires the “Commision Explorers” advance in the Age of Discovery, that is early in the advances tree for the “New World” Institution.


Speaking of advances, there are a few advances throughout the game that speed up explorations, or make them less prone to failures. At the start of the game, at near range, an Exploration led by someone who is not an Explorer may take a few years to complete, but as you get more advanced, this will become shorter in time.

The trade winds on the sea lanes also have a significant impact on how quickly an area can be explored. We have designed the oceanic locations of Project Caesar to take into account the historical ‘sea lanes’ that were used by ships and fleets during the Age of Sail, taking advantage of their knowledge of winds and sea currents. These sea lanes shaped the way explorations were done, as their mastery was critical to the success (or failure) of an expedition.

View attachment 1164402A purple advance is a unique one, and this is one that is unique to anyone in the Western Europe sub-continent in the Age of Renaissance.

If you have built a spy network in another country, you can use it to steal some of their maps.

As an exploration mission is finished, the knowledge of its discoveries will start spreading to other countries that have the capital on the same sub-continent as the explorer. Currently, the map spread takes about 150 years.

Stay tuned, as next week we will go deep into how the combat for armies will work.
will colonisation also be by area like exploration? it scares me to colonise every location...
 
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Very cool, I love it.

Questions, if you do not mind:

1. Can all tags start exploring already at game start?
2. If not, do we need some tech such as some boat technology to allow for sea exploration?
3. Does the cost and risk of exploration increase the farther you go from an owned province? I interpreted time increases, but I wonder if other things increase as well.
4. When you say "You can only explore areas that are adjacent to an area you have already explored", do you include (pure) sea areas in what we need to explore? By that I mean, can Portugal go straight from the Azores to the Americas / Brazil or do they need to explore the empty ocean in between?

1 - no
2 - for open seas yes
3 - yes
4 - you need to explore the empty sea between
 
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I love that inland exploration will be more costly and difficult, but will rivers like the Mississippi be easier to explore as it was historically? Not sure the rule on this as for example the Amazon was relatively difficult.

should be, we are still revising the river design.
 
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So discovery spread is only to the same subcontinent? a subcontinent would be what exacly? would Poland get portugal's discoveries?
 
Looks like a pretty good way to avoid micromanagement with exploring this map's huge population density.

Is exploration failure chance purely a function of character and distance, or can area-specific factors (e.g. harsh conditions at sea, angry natives on land) impact it?

Also is exploration locked behind a specific tech, or can everyone explore the seas from game start?
 
This new system is better than old systems but it still misses out on the interesting political dynamics of exploration and colonization. In at least the first few centuries of exploration, missions were far too expensive for the crown to finance independently so (in game terms) they relied on co-financing agreements with their estates. The estate would help to finance part (or even all) the mission in exchange for concessions from the crown. Usually trade monopolies, tax exemptions, land grants, missionary support, etc.

These agreements were essential for jump-starting exploration and later colonization but quickly led to complex power dynamics where the estates had considerably more control in colonized lands and trade ports than the crown and could leverage that power base as influence at court. I'd love to see this represented in the game.
 
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I hope the events do not get tedious. I think a high initial cost makes more sense than maintenance, because you wouldn't be able to send them constant money and food realistically, and exploration should only happen once they return to your land. Also definitely okay with long voyages in which you draw a route by stringing the areas upon one another, to represent circumnavigations and such. Other than that, I think this is a good, clean system.
 
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Will some nations start with land explored or bonus to explore certain regions (mostly the northern states Sweden, Norway and especially island)? Because of Greenland mostly.
 
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Yes, I know. Sadly it was a choice we had to do for better gameplay over historical realism.
understandable. could this be modded though? as in, I could create an alternative button with these goals i mentioned (Reach India around Africa) and set specific sea areas that would all need to be explored at once (from Europe to India around Africa) and only afterwards we know if the mission was successful, just like it works on the system you guys developed, but with multiple areas at once.

Another thing I noticed that you mentioned was that only certain ships can enter open sea tiles. This suggests that each sea tile can be defined to accept only whatever ship we want. Is this moddable?
 
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