Tinto Maps #11 - 19th of July 2024 - Scandinavia

[kimuyama]

Don't quite agree with the inner parts of Götaland appropriately being presented as flatland.
Like yes, it does not really ever go over 500m in height, but the terrain is very undulating which i feel is a more proper definition of hilly terrain. Basically the whole province of Tiohärad, as well as the locations of Skene, Bogesund, Alingsås, Vartofta, Jönköping and Kinda should be hills. It's not for nothing northern Västergötland is referred to as "Schlätta", because the rest of the province isn't. For reference, see this heightmap. I think more of Dalarna and Värmland deserves hills as well.

And that brings me to another point: The province (landskap) is called Västergötland; Västra Götaland is the name of the county (län), and there is no subdivision called "Östra Götaland", it should always be Östergötland!

 

[TheDungen]

Also shouldn't oceannic climate go deeper in the baltic? It's not like Sweden has an inland climate. Our winters are nowhere near that cold nor our summers that hot.

 

[Krey_Lollipop]

I see a lot of locations in northern Sweden that I'd like to comment on, so here goes:

"Silbojock" kinda implies "Jockmock", no? And the same goes for all other instances of ck/kk, it seems inconsistent.

Gellivaara seems like a mash up between Swedish (soft G) and Finnish (-vaara), but isn't it a Saami culture location?

Then I see a few potential misspellings, "Juckasjärvi", "Enontekis", "Gråträsk" and "Korpilombolo".

To be clear though, some of these comments do seem like they could be based on historical names, and I did find mention of "Gråtesk" (lol, achievement for conquering it as U?) on Wikipedia. But the others? Also on a similar note, was "Arjeplog" the historical name for that location? I ask because it used to be "Arjepluog" for most of the 20th century.

 

[moss_cannon_]

Is tar grouped with lumber? It was one of Finland's major exports during this the early modern era.

No it isn't. Tar is it's own good.
From Tinto Talks #9: "a Castle does not produce any goods, but it still requires Stone, Metalworks, Weaponry, and Tar"

Tar just isn't a raw good, which you can verify by looking at the Reference materials post which lists all the raw goods, and does not contain tar. So we can still export Finnish tar, it's just not shown on the map.

 

[Slime99]

Hello, I'm the person who asked for Bjarmian culture to be added during the Russia Map Talk and I realize now that I forgot a lot of important details.
Bjarmian culture was meant to replace that disconnected clump of Vepsian culture that was located East of Pomor. When I made my suggestion I was fairly confident that "Bjarmia" only meant modern Arkhangelsk Oblast/Northern Dvina area but then I saw that according to the article I sent it would be understood as the entire shore of the White Sea.
Maybe there is a case for the East Karelian coast to be Bjarmian but in any case please revert the Kola peninsula to Sami culture! I would feel terribly guilty that my poorly worded suggestion added more inaccuracies to the map instead of fixing them...
Here is more or less what I had in mind when I made my original comment:
View attachment 1165216

Bjarmians lived around where Pomors do now, I don't think they should exist anymore at this point or be mixed with Pomors in some locations if there's evidence of their existence there. The Mezen river valley, which you have highlighted as Bjarmian, should be Komi. Sami should also extend more south as the settlement of East Karelia by Karelians hadn't yet taken place in it's entirety.

https://illhkomisc.ru/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/maesv_xx-27.12_web.pdf

 

[BurnBird]

I see that Östra Götaland/ Östergötland, and Västra Götaland/ Västergötland, still hasn't been fixed. The counties (Landskap), are called Västergötland and Östergötland. They are part of the larger region of Götaland. If you want to refer to regions eastern half, you can say "Östra Götaland", but that's not the same as the county, even if the names mean the same thing. I'm really suprised I have to say this to a Swedish studio (I know the team is Spanish). You'd think some Swede would have seen the map of Scandinavia at some point during development?

 

[Danskjävel]

Grouping the islands of Fyn with Lolland and Falster also seems extremely weird. The two later is in recent centuries associated with Sjælland, though historically has had influence from the Wends and Northern Germany, as well as Hertugdømmerne (Slesvig-Holsten) for a period in the middle ages. Nykøbing (town on Falster) had become an important market town by the 13th century.

If you want to be accurate, they should each be their own location, as should Møn (which was succesfully trading in fish at the times), but at least Lolland and Falster should be seperate (and not called Nakskov). Grouping them with Fyn is strange and unheard of for a Dane.

Also South Eastern Fyn should probably be seperated from Odense location and together with Langeland (meaning Long Island) be called Svendborg, an important Købstad (market town by royal decree). Svendborg was the second largest town on Fyn in the Middle Ages.


Rough estimate for the Svendborg location. Not so sure about the area in red stripes. More granularity could make the borders less weird, but I understand there's a limit. You could make Assens and Svendborg meet, have Faaborg in between or just let it be weirdly shaped. Doesn't really matter, but please include Svendborg, which is a lot more significant than Assens.

Thisted should be renamed to Thy, which is (and was) the name of the area in which the city of Thisted is located. We don't have sources for Thisted earlier than 15th century, so Thisted definately should be ruled out. Also the northern part should be it's own location called Hanherred. I don't have a good suggestion if you want to keep them together, but Thisted seems not to be accounted for in the historical sources.

Also Sjælland in general is a bit weird... Why not portray Vordingborg? The southern tip of Sjælland doesn't have much to do with Ringsted (or Kalundborg for the matter), and so should be it's own location. Vordingborg was very important in two important events for Denmark and the Hanseatic League around the start date - The Dano-Hanseatic War(s). The Danish king had a golden goose made and put it on the top of the fortress in Vordingborg to taunt The Hansa. This is Denmark peaking guys! Also Møn could be grouped with Vordingborg, even though it really should be it's own, as it was held by many different nobles (and the king) through history.


I've tried to roughly sketch where Vordingborg should be (as a location). See my next post for a more accurate map. Also linked below.

Happy to not see København, even though I live there, and that Kalundborg is significant. Other smaller suggestions:

You could potentially group Skagen and Hjørring and call it Vendsyssel. I like granularity, but I think splitting the islands mentioned above is more important, so here's a place to reduce granularity a bit.


Sources (in Scandinavian ) and grouped in the same order as the relevant subject is mentioned in my post:

Møn - historie – Lex

Møn – historie, Af landsbykirkerne er Elmelunde Kirke fra ca. 1075 den ældste og bygget af bl.a. kridt og frådsten, mens teglstenskirkerne Keldby Kirke, Borre Kirke og Magleby Kirke er bygget i første halvdel af 1200-t.; Fanefjord Kirke er fra anden halvdel af 1200-t.

denstoredanske.lex.dk

Nykøbing F. – Danmarkshistorien | Lex

Nykøbing er opstået som handelsplads ved overfartsstedet mellem Falster og Lolland. Byen kendes fra midten af 1200-tallet og har i hvert fald fra omkring 1300 fungeret som købstad, men det er uvist, hvornår den har fået sine første privilegier.

danmarkshistorien.dk

Lolland – Lex

Lolland, Danmarks fjerdestørste ø (efter Sjælland, Den Nørrejyske Ø og Fyn); 1243 km2, 60.607 indb. (2016). Øen har i mange årtier haft negativ befolkningsvækst, og det er en tendens som er styrket yderligere i de senere år. Lolland er forbundet med Falster ved Guldborgsundtunnelen og broer ved...

denstoredanske.lex.dk

Svendborg – Danmarkshistorien | Lex

Svendborg blev anlagt i bunden af en lille bugt i 1100-tallets første halvdel. Bugten gav god beskyttelse til havnen, og beliggenheden var fordelagtig for handel og søfart.

danmarkshistorien.dk

Thisted – Danmarkshistorien | Lex

Thisted er formentlig opstået engang i middelalderen som landsby og fiskerleje, og byen udviklede sig i løbet af 1400-tallet til et lokalt handelscentrum. Man ved ikke, hvornår Thisted fik købstadstatus, men det har med stor sandsynlighed været omkring år 1500.

danmarkshistorien.dk

https://slaegtsbibliotek.dk/911456.pdf

Første krig med hansestæderne – Gyldendal og Politikens Danmarkshistorie | Lex

Den krig der fulgte på Gotlands erobring og brandskatningen af Visby, forstås bedst i lyset af at det var Sveriges fremtid det drejede sig om. Der skabtes en koalition mellem Mecklenburg, Holsten og de vendiske stæder rettet mod Valdemar Atterdag. Hanseforbundet i almindelighed, dvs.

danmarkshistorien.lex.dk

Kölnerforbundet og Anden Hansekrig – Gyldendal og Politikens Danmarkshistorie | Lex

At Valdemar Atterdag i et tysksproget ordspil skal have sammenlignet hansestæderne med gæs og for at understrege sin foragt for dem sat en guldgås på et af sine fæstningstårne på Vordingborg, er en tradition der har det for sig at den er sandsynlig.

danmarkshistorien.lex.dk

Vordingborg – Danmarkshistorien | Lex

Allerede omkring 1100-tallet blev borgen Vordingborg Slot opført som værn mod vendernes hærgen. Senere i århundredet blev det roligere tider, og byen blev anlagt på det naturlige overfartssted til Falster.

danmarkshistorien.dk

https://da.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sysse...ive_division_of_denmark_in_medieval_times.jpg (Danish administrative units/sysler)

 

[TurskiLepček]

Welcome everyone, today I’ll talk about the Scandinavian region. Part of it was the first maps we drew for Project Caesar back in early spring of 2020. Today we will look at all parts of the Scandinavian Peninsula (including Denmark & the Kola Peninsula). Greenland & Iceland will be looked at in a separate map talk.

Countries
View attachment 1165159
Scandinavia has only five location based countries at the start of the game. Denmark, who is in a bit of a crisis at the moment and their vassal Schleswig is in the south. On the peninsula proper, we have Sweden and Norway who are in a union at the moment as they share the same King. Scania was sold off to Sweden by the Danes five years before the start of the game.

There is no need to show off a Dynasty map, as Denmark does not exactly have a ruling King at the moment, and the rest is ruled by Magnus IV of the Bjälbo Dynasty.

Locations

View attachment 1165160
View attachment 1165161
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View attachment 1165164
While Scandinavia has a lot of locations, we have to remember that this is a huge area, and together with Kola & Karelia, it is the same size as France, Spain, Portugal, Italy & Benelux together.. The size of locations are smaller in the south, particularly where the population was and still is relatively bigger.


Provinces
View attachment 1165169
We have tried to follow historical traditional province borders here, but some ended up too big like Småland, Lappland or Österbotten, which were cut into pieces, and some are just too tiny to matter.

Now I wish I had time to write up a history about each province here, but I’ll just add a few fun tidbits.

Satakunta, which is the Finnish name, is named in Finnish like the old regions of Svitjod, which were divided into “hundreds”. It was also refered to Björneborgs län, named after Björneborg (Pori in Finnish), a town founded by Johan III when Ulfsby was no longer accessible from the sea. The regiment from the area was the last Swedish Army Regiment that has ever won a battle inside Sweden, and their military march is a song I think every Finnish Citizen want to play repeatedly on TV during the Olympics..

Småland, which is divided into Tiohärad and Kalmar Län here, should really be referred to as Småländerna, as there were 12 small countries there.. Compared to the 3 other much larger countries of Svealand, Östra Götaland and Västra Götaland. And now why is Östra Götaland not containing Kinda?

Topograhy
View attachment 1165173
It's mostly flatland.. I went by the rule that if the peaks are less than 500 meters it's flatland, and you need to have over 1,000 meters and rather uneven to be a mountain. Norway is interesting there.. We do have a lot of impassable areas in Norway, making this one of the most fun parts to play in.

Vegetation
View attachment 1165174
There are some farmlands in Denmark, Scania and in Götaland, but the rest is basically a big forest.. And up north it's even worse.

Climate
View attachment 1165176
Yeah, well. There is a reason I moved to Spain..


Cultures
View attachment 1165177
Most of the north east is still Sami, and the Finnish tribes have not unified into the more modern Finnish culture. We decided to call the modern Meänkieli with their more ancient name of Kven. We still have Gutnish on Gotland, but the Norwegian, Danish and Swedish cultures have been becoming more monolithic already.

Religions
View attachment 1165178

The Finnish are mostly Catholic, but the Sami, Tavastian, Savonia, Bjarmian and Karelians are mostly still following their old pagan beliefs. There are still some Norse people in the forests of Dalarna and Västmanland..

Raw Materials
View attachment 1165180
It is mostly lumber, fish, wild game, fur and iron. We of course have the famous copper mountain as well.

Markets
View attachment 1165181
Scandinavia is divided by the rich markets of Lübeck and Riga. A strong Scandinavian country will probably want to set up their own unified market.


Population
View attachment 1165182


Not many people live up in the north..

Spoiler: Location Pops

View attachment 1165183

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I liked nice round numbers as estimates, but the team I hired for content design are mad men, and wanted the distribution to feel more organic.. For the far north of Scandinavia we know that people were semi nomadic, and that some people lived there.. But if it was 100 there, or 250 there or 20 there it's just guesswork..


And let's end with a quote from the Greatest of Poets..

Jag vill, jag skall bli frisk, det får ej prutas,
Jag måste upp, om jag i graven låg.
Lyss, hör, ni hör kanonerna vid Jutas;
Där avgörs finska härens återtåg.


Next week Pavia is back with some German maps…

very interesting, population of finish people decreased since ck3, very interesting

 

[Polesie Admiral]

hey @Johan , are you gonna represent somehow the union of Kalmar and the breakup of the Swedish-Norwegian union(when Magnus VII gave his son Haakon VI the throne)? also please tell me the isle of Wolin is a location

 

[Daniel the Finlander]

Next up, the area where I lived most of my life.

For the love of Sverige, decide if you're using swedish or finnish place names. Ristiina (you made a typo) was Kristina in swedish. I know you'll make dynamic place names, but at least make the placeholders consistent in one or the other. As for Lappeenranta/Villmanstrand, well here's an interesting dilemma. Until the foundation of the eponymous town, the place was known as Lappee/Lapvesi whose center was Kauskila. However the town was founded already in 1649, covering half the game's timeline. So this name is probably fine?

On the map, Villmanstrand is marked as having Finnish culture. It should be Karelian. Even today, it is part of South Karelia, and has always had very close ties with Viborg. Kristina is marked as pagan majority, which is weird considering because it was part of the parish of Savolax (Savolahti), one of the oldest parishes in Savonia. Funnily enough, Savolax was orthodox before 1323 Nöteborg treaty. Savonia in general should have a mixed population of catholics, pagans, and orthodox instead of the current pure paganism.

Population numbers? Who knows honestly, can't find any good sources. So the current numbers are probably fine for these two.

But Jäskis (fin. Jääski) having 100 population while surrounded by 600-1000 population locations looks very weird. Should probably make it consistent with the other ones, it was about similarly populated as the rest of the region.

Please don't use Kouvola. Not only is that place cursed in the modern day, it was founded in 1922. Before that it was an unsignificant village. This location should be called Valkeala, which was separated from the parish of Iitti (sw. Itis) in 1640. Also, I don't know if the place should have finnish culture. Maybe Tavastian, Savonian or Karelian. Anybody got sources? Can't really find any.

Same thing with Lahti, wasn't a notable location until 1878. Before then, the location's center was Hollola.

And finally, the place where I studied. Once again, same thing, not a real place until industrialisation/urbanization.

Of course, you can't just call it Laukaa (sw. Laukas) either because you've already used that location name further north. You might have to redraw borders here because as you can see above, modern-day Jyväskylä was historically part of Laukas. In general, I think Laukas goes too far north. On your map it is parallel to Kuopio, which looks kind of silly compared to the modern map.

So what's the solution? Either redraw some location borders or rename Jyväskylä to Laukas and maybe rename Laukas to Rautalampi? Not sure honestly.

That's enough nitpicking for now. More to come when I feel like it.

EDIT DISCLAIMER: Pavia noted in the Italy thread that google maps has limited usefulness due to using a different map projection. So direct comparisons/overlays don’t work.

EDIT 2:
Kotka did not exist until 1879 either.

Example source:

Better name for this location would be Kymi (sw. Kymmene) or Pyhtää (sw. Pyttis).

 

[Jarzki]

Kven is standin for "Bothnian" but they shouldn't exist yet as the settlement of Ostrobothnia was from several sources and lasted for a long time. Even today eastern Ostrobothnia is Savo speaking and Western Ostrobothnia has Western dialects.
View attachment 1165345

Yeah, I'm quite torn on Kven culture as well, I thought it's maybe representing Finnic peoples that lived around Torneå Valley? But I agree with you that maybe Kven is not the best option to represent the people living in Ostrobothnia region and as such Tinto team should perhaps opt for something else.

 

[Daniel the Finlander]

Bjarmians lived around where Pomors do now, I don't think they should exist anymore at this point or be mixed with Pomors in some locations if there's evidence of their existence there. The Mezen river valley, which you have highlighted as Bjarmian, should be Komi. Sami should also extend more south as the settlement of East Karelia by Karelians hadn't yet taken place in it's entirety.
View attachment 1165354
https://illhkomisc.ru/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/maesv_xx-27.12_web.pdf

post this in the Russia feedback thread please, not here.

 

[Krichase]

Grouping the islands of Fyn with Lolland and Falster also seems extremely weird. The two later is in recent centuries associated with Sjælland, though historically has had influence from the Wends and Northern Germany, as well as Hertugdømmerne (Slesvig-Holsten) for a period in the middle ages. Nykøbing (town on Falster) had become an important market town by the 13th century.

Also Sjælland in general is a bit weird... Why not portray Vordingborg? The southern tip of Sjælland doesn't have much to do with Ringsted (or Kalundborg for the matter), and so should be it's own location. Vordingborg was very important in two important events for Denmark and the Hanseatic League around the start date - The Dano-Hanseatic War(s). The Danish king had a golden goose made and put it on the top of the fortress in Vordingborg to taunt The Hansa. This is Denmark peaking guys! Also Møn could be grouped with Vordingborg, even though it really should be it's own, as it was held by many different nobles (and the king) through history.

View attachment 1165338
I've tried to roughly sketch where Vordingborg should be (as a location).

Happy to not see København, even though I live there, and that Kalundborg is significant. Other smaller suggestions:

What do you think of the Kalundborg location? It is so large and incorporates southern areas that feel very distinct from Kalundborg. Sorø has such a rich history as does Næstved (though of course that is under Ringsted). Would it make sense to split Næstved and Vordingborg from Ringsted, or are we getting greedy?

 

[Slime99]

Although all the above-discussed hubs bear evidence of interactions and mixture of cultural traits, the coastal communities seem to have maintained their local character until the historical period (Paper V). This is demonstrated, on the one hand by the cemeteries, which during the Crusader Period harboured nonChristian cremation burials and, on the other, by the subsistence strategy, which still relied largely on hunting and fishing. Some researchers (e.g. Vahtola 1980a; Julku 1985: 187; 1988: 84) have suggested that the practise of agriculture gained foothold in the Bothnian Bay coast already during the Late Iron Age as suggested by pollen analyses made in Finland and Sweden (Reynaud & Hjelmroos 1980; Hicks 1988; Segerström 1995; Vuorela 2002; Hörnberg et al. 2014; Josefsson et al. 2014; Bergman & Hörnberg 2015). However, these indicators prove only that a small-scale crop cultivation was probably practised alongside the hunting and fishing, which most likely remained the main source of subsistence until historical times. The signs of systematic agriculture are also largely absent in the archaeological record – apart from the fragmented rake of Kannala and the rake tine and a spindle-whorl documented in Pirttitörmä, none of these hubs bear signs of farming, and the situation is similar to that in other inland and northern areas as well (for more discussion, see Kuusela 2015: Fig. 5; Paper V with references).

With this in mind, an argument can be made against the Late Iron Age colonisation of the Bothnian Bay, at least in the sense in which it has been previously understood, i.e. forcible introduction of the peasant way of life to the river-estuaries. These areas were not occupied by peasant communities until the historical times, and, even then, the process probably derived from mutual relationships and gradual merging of these lifestyles rather than one-sided exploitation. This co-existence was based on the status and the position of the coastal communities as well as their role as informants and local contacts for the peasant traders and the inland hunter-gatherers. These interactions are encapsulated in the early historical depictions, such as those by Olaus Magnus as well as in the concept of birkarls. These traders and taxmen of the inland Sámi communities were previously interpreted as deriving from the colonisation movement aimed at the North by the southern peasants, most notably from the municipality of Pirkkala in Tavastia (Jaakkola 1924; Fjellström 1965; Favorin 1968), but this interpretation has been rejected by modern researchers. According to the recent analyses, the institution was formed locally and initially based on reciprocal interactions between coastal and inland communities (Hederyd 1991: 215–219; Bergman & Edlund 2016). Obviously, both the depictions of Olaus Magnus and the birkarl movement are largely medieval, but offer an interesting outlook on the early intercultural interactions and probably reflect the Late Iron Age dynamics as well.

https://oulurepo.oulu.fi/bitstream/handle/10024/34317/isbn978-952-62-2094-9.pdf?sequence=1&isAllowed=y

Pages 86–87.

 

[Engram]

- Kven culture should probably be renamed to "Ostrobothnian".

Absolutely not, because it refers to the people living on both sides of the bay. Kven is what the Nordic folks called them during the Viking age and around the time of game start. "Bothnian" maybe, but Kven is ballin'. I love it. Make Kvenland great again!

- I also think that Finnish culture is probably a bit too big

Absolutely yes! The Finns (Proper) were confined pretty much exactly within Finland (Proper). Tavastians occupied a lot more land.

This map represents the situation around 1200.

 

[Jarzki]

Is tar grouped with lumber? It was one of Finland's major exports during this the early modern era.

I think tar has been confirmed as a separate trade good. I guess there could be a tarn kiln or a similar building that would produce tar using lumber. I agree with you that Finland's importance as a major tar-producing region should be somehow modeled, as for example Oulu was at one point the biggest tar-exporting port in the world and much of the tar used by the British was imported from Finland.

 

[Millero15]

Great work as always! I am very happy to see that Finnish region actually got its own religion instead of being generic Animist or entirely Christian. The splitting of Finnish culture into many regional ones is also a welcome addition, though I think maybe "Bothnian" or similar culture could be added to the western parts of Finland? I tried to make an illustration of this, but maybe someone actually living in the area could correct me if this is unnecessary or somehow wrong.

View attachment 1165300

I would also like to ask about the presence of Swedish culture in Western Finland. By 1337 Swedes had definitely settled along the western and southern coasts of Finland, but did Swedish-majority areas actually reach as far inland as is implied here? Are there some sources for this? (Or maybe @Johan had something to do with this )

Regarding vegetation, the forest coverage could perhaps be a little more sparse in the southernmost parts of Finland. The map below shows the estimated area of natural / untouched forests in Finland in 1000 and 1550 along with rough population estimates.

View attachment 1165319
Source: Keto-Tokoi P. & Kuuluvainen T. (2010). Suomalainen aarniometsä. (In English: Finnish Primeval Forest).

I don't quite understand the reasoning behind this large impassable terrain within Karelia. It is true, that due to its remote location, Sweden and Novgorod/Russia couldn't exert much control in this area during a large part of the game's timespan, but terrain-wise it is similar to the lands around it. The area's river and lake network was used since the Middle Ages by Norse traders and "Finnish" hunters alike to get from the Baltic Sea to the White Sea, so I don't think the impassable terrain's existence is entirely justified.

View attachment 1165327

Lastly I want to bring up something that may not be entirely within the scope of Tinto Maps and that is the change of ethnic/cultural makeup of Kainuu and Northern Ostrobothnia regions in the 1400s - 1600s. During this time, people from Savonia and Central Ostrobothnia started to migrate further north mainly in search of new farmland, but also due to tax exemptions granted to new settlers by the Swedish Crown. This movement ended up pushing the existing Karelian and remaining Sami populations, who had used these lands mainly for hunting and reindeer herding, out of the region. I wonder if there will be some mechanics related to this, where Sweden or Novgorod/Russia could support either Savonians and/or Karelians in their efforts to populate the region? Below is a picture that illustrates the movements of peoples during different times (pardon the quality, I took this picture with a phone from a physical book).

View attachment 1165337
Source: Wilmi J. (2003). Kuhmon historia. (In English: the History of Kuhmo).

More in-depth information on the Savonian settlement of Kainuu can also be found from this text by Jorma Keränen: https://jyx.jyu.fi/handle/123456789/75370 , but sadly the text is in Finnish...

Edit: There also seems to be missing a few Finnish localizations in location names.

• Uleåborg -> Oulu (or is this due to Swedish culture being a majority?)
• Kaustby -> Kaustinen
• Lappo -> Lapua
• Storkyro -> Isokyrö
• Kajana -> Kajaani
• Idensalmi -> Iisalmi
• Olofsborg -> Savonlinna (or maybe Olavinlinna?)
• Jäskis -> Jääski

I wrote this comment mainly to bring some insights on Finland from a local. I really hope this information is of help to you!

On the Swedish pops issue:

I did some calculations.



The total population of Finland, including the provinces of Egentliga Finland, Satakunta, Österbotten, Nyland, Karelia, Tavastia, Savonia, Far Karelia, Inre Österbotten, and the Åland islands is 123,670. Of that population, 62,573 pops live in locations that are Swedish-majority and Finnish-minority. An additional 11,630 live in Finnish-majority Swedish-minority locations, as stripes on the map indicate.



Assuming that the aforementioned Swedish-majority locations are on average 67% Swedish and the Swedish-minority locations are 33% Swedish on average, and that the non-striped locations are 0% Swedish, we get a total of 45 672 Swedish pops in Finland. That is almost exactly 37.00% of the total Finnish population, or more than twice that of the 17th century peak. These are just estimation, but it gives a rough picture of what the real number likely is.



In other words, for any resemblence of historical accuracy, the number of Swedish pops shouls be less than half of what they are right now. If the 37% figure is accurate, I’d cut the number by two thirds and distribute that to the relevant local Finnic culture.

 

[Slime99]

post this in the Russia feedback thread please, not here.

I've already done so but since Bjarmian was brought up here I thought I'd bring it up again.

 

[BlackPrince]

In XVII century rulers of Sweden contracted Dutch builders to plan and construct multiple cities/settlements/fortifications due to their expertise in building on marshland (one of those cities is for example Göteborg). I'm not even from Sweden and yet I know about it, but Swedish game developers don't. This is embarrassing.

 

[Pescavelho]

Lots of things wrong in Finland:

1. ⁠No marshes, most of inland should be marshes. Finland has tons of Marshes.
2. ⁠Wht are locations localised while the Provinces are in Swedish, English and Finnish? Either both should be localised or neither.
3. ⁠Inre Österbotten isn’t a thing, that should be renamed to Kainuu or Southern Lappland. Also Egentligen Finland should be just Finland as that region was the region of Finland in the Swedish realm.
4. ⁠Finnish culture being around the regions where Tavastians live and thd Tavastian culture being split is weird. They should be merged to either Finnish or Tavastian.
5. ⁠Swedish should only be the Majority in Egentligen Finland, everywhere else it should be a ruling minority. The Ostrobothnian swedes hadn’t settled there by this point.
6. ⁠Inpassable Forests in Karelia and Kola are dumb, those clearly exist to make modern day borders easier to achieve. Those should be removed as those were just very rural areas.

Kven is standin for "Bothnian" but they shouldn't exist yet as the settlement of Ostrobothnia was from several sources and lasted for a long time. Even today eastern Ostrobothnia is Savo speaking and Western Ostrobothnia has Western dialects.
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What's shown in the map as Savonian and Kven lands should be Sámi at this time then, no?