Tinto Maps #11 - 19th of July 2024 - Scandinavia

[Thorum]

I did some map work on the south of Norway to make it more interesting. The names are quite old, but the language should still be norse in 1337. It's easy to choose a more modern naming convention if desired. I'm probably not gonna finish this entirely so I'm posting it since it covers most impassable areas that would make gameplay more interesting.


View attachment 1166090

Without having begun this exercise, looks very close to what I'd have proposed as well, though maybe a bit too many added provinces.

 

[ArVass]

i would bet the answer is "we will talk about it in a later dev diary" but i have to ask


how do dominions work? is it more PU or more vassal? (thinking with eu4 brain), if i had to take a bet i would guess it is like a PU, doing its own stuff but the "main" country extracts taxes, manpower and trade from it.

I would bet it's something between the two. A PU has the same ruler but completely different countries that largely work together but aren's subservient to one another, a vassal has its own ruler but is subservient to the liege (pays taxes etc.), and a dominion has the same ruler BUT is subservient to the "main" title. It does seem to be an awkward position between subjugation and annexation and integration, though an interesting one.

 

[Meanmanturbo]

Raw Materials
View attachment 1165180
It is mostly lumber, fish, wild game, fur and iron. We of course have the famous copper mountain as well.

Looking at the resource distribution, I am wondering if it will be possible to get iron without there being iron as a resource in the province? I ask this because I know there was iron production in the area i grew up in Småland up untill the early 1900:s, it even got industialized. The iron ore here came in the form of limonite fished up from the bottom of lakes (in winter when there was ice, later with machines).

Will there be a building for lake iron and bog iron that you can build in some provinces that do not have the iron resource that is not as efficient as a proper mine? It is a little different to the stone and lumber buildings since they could still not be everywhere.

 

[Daniel the Finlander]

Looking at the resource distribution, I am wondering if it will be possible to get iron without there being iron as a resource in the province? I ask this because I know there was iron production in the area i grew up in Småland up untill the early 1900:s, it even got industialized. The iron ore here came in the form of limonite fished up from the bottom of lakes (in winter when there was ice, later with machines).

Will there be a building for lake iron and bog iron that you can build in some provinces that do not have the iron resource that is not as efficient as a proper mine? It is a little different to the stone and lumber buildings since they could still not be everywhere.

Finland also produced a lot of lake/bog iron, so it’d be useful there too.

 

[Ipponen]

While I would not mind Uleåborg being named just Uleå, I have to point out that the first castle, albeit a wooden one, was there already in the 1370s. That's well documented.


The cities themselves had miniscule populations to begin with, so I imagine the German and Russian traders don't even register when looking at the entire location and province. Calling Åbo a city is already pushing it.

And on the topic of Hangö -- Ekenäs is definitely a better name considering the time period, but Raseborg would make even more sense, don't you think?


Nyland and Finland were considered their own provinces (landskap, maakunta) even during the time (1300s).


This one I agree with. Tinto seems to have a rule for having x locations in a province, which complicates things. I would personally extend Österbotten a little north and east, have Lapland grab a couple of the northernmost locations from Inner Österbotten, and then rename Inner Österbotten to Kajanaland. Of course, Kajanaland would not be thing until the 1500s. Hard to name places with 1337 names when they didn't exist.


Fully agreed. Since Karelia takes up the entire isthmus, using Kexholm for the province doesn't make sense. Far Karelia doesn't make sense either, because Far Karelia refers to the region between lake Onega and the Northern Dvina rivers. North Karelia would be a suitable alternative here.


Correct on both points.

Sámi would hunt and gather as far south as the northern shores of Saimaa around this time. Population numbers and estimates are nonexistent tho, so I can't blame Tinto for being cautious here. Historically speaking, whatever populations did not migrate north when the Finnish tribes pushed into their lands were assimilated. Idk if that's easy or hard for the game to emulate.

Åland never had a Finnish population. Archaelogical findings point to exclusively Germanic/Nordic settlement since the 800s(?) iirc.


This is a valid concern. Basically impossible to get it right tho.

I would split Ostrobothnia into three provinces: Södra Österland, Norra Österland and Kajanaland. A north south divide existed briefly in 1642-1648 when Ostrobithnia was divided into Oulu and Vaasa läns. The same line was used again in 1775 with a new Vaasa län. Nowadays too there is a North Ostrobpthnia. It appears the border between the old Swedish lands of Norrland and Finland is also sometimes drawn on this line.

The Finnish counties in 1642-1646

The Finnish counties in 1775-1809

The Finnish counties now

The historical lands of Sweden

Kajanaland, despite being part of Ostrobothnia during the timeframe of the game, has historically been referred to as a län (county). Kajanaland was also the center of the 1650-1681 "Kajaanin vapaaherttuakunta", a fiefdom of Finland's governor-general Per Brahe the Younger, who established the city pf Kajana. Making Kajanaland into its own province could help combat having too many locations in Nörra Österbotten. It could fit a fair 4 or 5 locations.

Map of "Caianaborgs Lähn" from 1718

Another map from 1650 referring to Kajanaland as a län

 

[Boxtrot]

Alright, so i have updated my privious proposal for Denmark. Here is the location map i came up with:

I included Holstein this time around. Here is a few comments: Some of the locations are small, most notebly Ribe, Hamburg and Lübeck. all being about the size of the Oslo location, so it should be fine, right? The borders of Ribe is kinda wierd. This is to represent the Royal Enclaves, parts of Nørrejylland enclaved in Schleswig. Fehmarn is also seperated from the mainland, as it was under Schleswig control, and this was the best way of showcasing that. If that is not possible, add it to Kiel i guess, but that would be sad D:. All in all, the locations of Denmark were big, compared to other parts of scandinavia, despite being the most densly populated part, so i really think adding a few locations is justified.

This is what the province map mode would look like. Now most of the changes i would like to see is in regard to the political setup of Denmark in 1337. Denmark as a country kinda didn't exist, as the entire country was mortgaged to a few Holteinian counts. (one of which sold scania to Sweden). Instead of just seeing Denmark start in an interegnium, i think this would be a more interesting way of representing the starting situation:

Holstein had been partitioned since 1261, so i included it as partitioned. The notable people here were Count Gerhard III of Holstein-Rendsburg, aka "the bald count", who was the most powerfull person in Denmark at the time. It was him that deposed King Valdemar III, (who then became Duke Valdemar V of Schleswig). The only real challenger to Gerhard's power was Count John III of Holstein-Pöln, aka "John the mild", who controled Zealand. I think Showing Denmark as seperated as Dominions under these Counts would better represent the situation at the time.

Now on april 1. 1340, the squire Niels Ebbesen killed the bald count, and then proclaimed Christopher II's heir to be the new king of Denmark. Thus Valdemar IV "Atterdag" came to power in Jutland. Ebbesen continued south, trying to free Schleswig, but was killed. Initially Valdemar Atterdag only controled the area north of the Limfjord, and had to rebuy the rest of the country, but most of that was handled through his marriage. Zealand would take a few years to rebuy, needing Valdemar to sell Estonia. Valdemar would eventually walk into Scania pratically unimposed, and would later conquer Gotland. He failed to retake Schleswig though, which would remain under Holteinian Dukes until Eric of Pommerania retook it in 1424.

The way i see this pan out is to have an event in 1340, wherein Gerhard III is killed, and Valdemar Atterdag becomes king of Jutland (Capital properly in Viborg). He would have very low control in the entire country, so you have to sort that out asap. an event about his marriage could give more control. Then an event in schleswig would spawn rebels led by Ebbesen. Another event would trigger in 1346, where Valdemar can choose to sell Estonia and get Zealand in return, just outright buy Zealand if you have the money, or let John III keep it for now. This is a simplification, but one that gets the situation across quite well.

I should add that Valdemar faced a lot of revolts during the time, so maybe a disaster should be triggered, if that system is still in place. Also, the Duchy of Estonia was without a Viceroy at the time, but Denmark would reapoint one in 1340. However, they would loose control in the saint George's night uprising in 1343, whereafter the Teutonic order would practically control the duchy until it was sold.

I also think that the rise of Queen Magrethe 1. should be scripted. She changed the course of Scandinavia history so much. Also, here is an area map:

 

[Meanmanturbo]

Finland also produced a lot of lake/bog iron, so it’d be useful there too.

It was important in a lot of places early in the games time frame. Im thinking there should ba lite a province modifier or status called like iron bearing or something that unlocks a lake/bog iron building. Might even be competitive with early mining technology.

 

[Torakka]

Okay, I posted few location name suggestions before, but went now through pretty much every location in the area of old Grand Duchy of Finland and tried to find the best possible names for them and the provinces they are located in. I can’t comment on population statistics, vegetation, climate or topography, the shapes of those locations nor the potential need to add more locations, so I leave those to other people who might know more. (Or well, I’d really like if that huge Karelian wasteland area was replaced with normal locations, similar to those around it, but I can’t make concrete suggestions there.) I have few suggestions for changing locations from one province to another, but mostly this is just a long list of name proposals for those locations as they otherwise are.

Map of Finnish “socken” in 1635 has been used as general source here, in addition to the more specific one linked in relevant places. Pretty much all of the links are to Finnish texts, apologies for that. You’ll likely get a pretty decent translation with browser or google.

Spoiler: Egenliga Finland

Egenliga Finland province (Varsinais-Suomi in Finnish): decent name but could also be just Suomi (Finland) or Varsinais-Suomi when dynamically named in Finnish and just Finland otherwise.

Nystad location (Uusikaupunki in Finnish): Uusikaupunki was founded in 1617 by king Gustav II Adolf and it was the place where the peace treaty for the Great Northern War was signed, so keeping it might be reasonable despite it not existing for the first almost 300 years of the game. Another valid name for this location could be Kalanti that did exist already in early 14th century.

Åbo location (Turku in Finnish): Turku (and its translations) is definitely a good name for this location.

Pöytis location (Pöytyä in Finnish): Pöytyä (and its translations) is a good name for this location.

Salo location: Salo did have chapel, marketplace, bridge and tavern in 14th century, but gained more status only in 17th century. Halikko is probably a better name for this location, since Halikko was important economic centre in this area both before and after Swedish conquests. (Apparently legend tells that Birger Jarl and the Second Swedish Crusade to Finland landed in Halikko.)

Kastelholm location (Kastelholma in Finnish): name is definitely fine. However, I think this location should be part of Egenliga Finland (Varsinais-Suomi) province, since Åland has historically been administered as part of Finland at least since 16th century. For example, it used to be part of “Turun ja Porin lääni” in 17th and 18th century.

Spoiler: Nyland

Nyland province (Uusimaa in Finnish): good name.

Ekenäs location (Tammisaari in Finnish): Tammisaari was made administrative centre in 1528, before that the centre was Raasepori. I suppose both Tammisaari and Raasepori would be good names for this location.

Kyrkslätt location (Kirkkonummi in Finnish): Siuntio might be a better name for this location, since Siuntio is older than Kirkkonummi and also has two castle-like manors from 15th century, signifying its status as the local power centre.

Helsinge location (Helsinki in Finnish): Helsinki (and its translations) is a good name for this location.

Porvoo location: Porvoo (and its translations) is definitely a good name for this location.

Kotka location: Kotka was founded in 1878. A better name for this location would probably be Pyhtää (which also better matches the geographic area of this location).

Spoiler: Satakunta

Satakunta province: good name

Sastmola location (Merikarvia in Finnish): Merikarvia (and its translations) is a good name for this location.

Björneborg location (Pori in Finnish): Pori was founded in 1558. The previous centre in this location was Ulvila, which had city status from 1365 to 1550. Ulvila might be a better name for this location, since Pori exists only because of Gustav Vasa, but keeping it as Pori isn’t terrible choice either.

Raumo location (Rauma in Finnish): Rauma (and its translations) is definitely a good name for this location.

Hvittis location (Huittinen in Finnish and Vittis in Swedish, so there’s probably a typo here): Huittinen (and its translations) is definitely a good name for this location.

Sastamala location: Sastamala (and its translations) is probably a good name for this location.

Ulfsby location (Ulvila in Finnish): Ulvila is located in the current Björneborg location, so this location needs some other name. Suur-Kyrö (or just Kyrö) might otherwise be good name, but it is too large and includes current Storkyro location, so more limited Hämeenkyrö is probably the best choice for name here.

Orivesi location: Orivesi is decent name for this location, but Ruovesi might be a better one (especially because of better geographic match for this location).

Tammerfors location (Tampere in Finnish): Tampere was founded only in 1779. Much better name for this location would be Pirkkala.

Spoiler: Tavastland

Tavastland province (Häme in Finnish): good name

Forssa location: Forssa was founded only in 1923, so this location definitely needs another name. A better name for this location might be Porras or Loimo, since that’s how Porras was called until early 16th century.

Somero location: Somero (and its translations) is probably a good name for this location.

Janakkala location: Janakkala (and its translations) is probably a good name for this location.

Tavastehus location (Hämeenlinna in Finnish): Hämeenlinna (and its translations) is definitely a good name for this location.

Jämsä location: Jämsä (and its translations) is a good name for this location.

Lahti location: Lahti was founded only in 1878. Much better name for this location would be Hollola.

Liljendal location: Liljendal is probably good name for this location, although Uusikylä might be used too.

Itis location (Iitti in Finnish): Iitti (and its translations) is a good name for this location.

Joutsa location: This location should be Sysmä instead, since Joutsa (and Hartola that another poster mentioned as name candidate) were both separated from Sysmä long after 1337 and Sysmä used to be the dominant “socken” in this area.

Jyväskylä location: Jyväskylä was founded only in 1837. Much better name for this location would be Laukaa.

Laukas location (Laukaa in Finnish): Laukaa is located in the current Jyväskylä location, so this location needs some other name. Rautalampi is probably the best name for this location.

Saarijärvi location: Saarijärvi (and its translations) is probably a good name for this location.

Viitasaari location: Viitasaari (and its translations) is probably a good name for this location.

Spoiler: Savolax

Savolax province (Savo in Finnish): good name

Heinola location: Heinola is located in the current Itis location and was also founded only in 1776, so this location definitely needs some other name. Mäntyharju, which was made its own parish from parts of Sysmä, Iitti, Mikkeli and Taipalsaari parishes in 1595, is probably the best name for this location.

Riistina location: There seems to be a typo here as it should be Ristiina (first singe i and then double i), but otherwise it is a good name for this location.

Olofsborg location (Olavinlinna in Finnish): Olavinlinna is the name of the actual castle. The name of the city is Savonlinna (or Nyslott in Swedish). Savonlinna is thus probably a better name for this location.

Savonranta location: Savonranta was founded only in 1882. A better name for this location would be Sääminki or perhaps Rantasalmi.

Joroinen location: Joroinen (and its translations) is a good name for this location.

Mikkeli location: Mikkeli is otherwise a good name for this location, but that name was adopted only in the middle of the 17th century. Before that the location was known as Savilahti.

Kangasniemi location: Kangasniemi was separated in 17th century from Pieksämäki, which was and is the central place in this location. Thus, this location should be called Pieksämäki instead.

Kuopio location: Kuopio (and its translations) is probably a good name for this location.

Rautavaara location: Rautavaara (and its translations) is probably a good name for this location.

Idensalmi location (Iisalmi in Finnish): Iisalmi (and its translations) is probably a good name for this location.

Kajana location (Kajaani in Finnish): Kajaani is a good name for this location, but I’m not sure whether it should still be part of Savolax province. Someone else had pretty good sounding idea of renaming Inre Österbotten province to Kainuu, in which case it would make sense to switch this location to that province.

Spoiler: Karelia

Karelia province (Karjala in Finnish): good name but could also be Etelä-Karjala (South Karelia).

Kouvola location: Kouvola was founded only in 1922. Much better name for this location would be Valkeala.

Fredrikshamn location (Hamina in Finnish): Hamina was originally Vehkalahti until it was renamed in 1723 (after king Frederick I). Thus, Vehkalahti would be a better name for this location.

Villmanstrand location (Lappeenranta in Finnish): Lappeenranta was founded in 1649. Better name for this location would probably be Lappee (or Lapvesi). (“Lappeenranta” literally means “shore (or beach) of Lappee”.)

Vederlax location (Virolahti in Finnish): Virolahti (and its translations) is probably a good name for this location.

Heinjoki location: Heinjoki is located in the current Vyborg (or Kyyrölä) location, so this location needs some other name. Jääski is probably the best name for this location.

Jäskis location (Jääski in Finnish): Jääski is located in the current Heinjoki location, so this location needs some other name. Ruokolahti is perhaps the best name for this location.

Lahdenpohja location: This location should probably be Kurkijoki instead, since Kurkijoki is already mentioned in historical documents in 14th century and Lahdenpohja only from 17th century onwards.

Kexholm location (Käkisalmi on Finnish): Käkisalmi (and its translations) is definitely a good name for this location.

Konevets location (Konevitsa in Finnish): Konevitsa is an island with monastery. Sakkula (Sakkola from 1735 onwards) is probably the best name for this location.

Kyyrölä location: This location should probably be Muolaa instead, since Muolaa is already mentioned in historical documents in early 14th century and Kyyrölä was separated from Muolaa only in 1890.

Viborg location (Viipuri in Finnish): Viipuri (and its translations) is definitely a good name for this location.

Koivisto location: Koivisto (and its translations) is probably a good name for this location.

Valkeasaari location: Kivennapa or Uusikirkko might be a better name here.

Toksovo location (Toksova in Finnish): Toksova (and its translations) is probably a good name for this location.

Spoiler: Far Karelia

Far Karelia province (Kauko-Karjala in Finnish, I think): North Karelia (Pohjois-Karjala in Finnish) would probably be a better name for this province.

Nurmes location: Nurmes (and its translations) is probably a good name for this location.

Juuka location: Juuka (and its translations) is probably a good name for this location.

Lieksa location: Lieksa (and its translations) is probably a good name for this location.

Mökhö location: There is probably a typo here and this is intended to be Möhkö. I suppose Möhkö is at least a decent name for this location.

Ilomantsi location: Ilomantsi (and its translations) is a good name for this location.

Joensuu location: Joensuu existed as a village at least in early 18th century and it became city in 1848. Liperi might be a better name for this location.

Vartsila location: Värtsilä (with ä:s instead of a:s) is perhaps a decent name for this location, but Tohmajärvi is probably better one, since Värtsilä used to be just a village within Tohmäjärvi “socken”. Kitee is another possibly good name for this location.

Loymola location (probably meant to be Loimola): Loimola seems to be a modern creation, so far better name would probably be Pälkjärvi which is mentioned in historical documents in early 16th century.

Suojärvi location: Suojärvi (and its translations) is probably a good name for this location.

Sordavala location (Sortavala in Finnish): Sortavala (and its translations) is a good name for this location.

Salmi location: Salmi (and its translations) is a good name for this location.

Spoiler: Österbotten

Österbotten province (Pohjanmaa in Finnish): good name

Koppo location: I have no idea what place this refers to. Närpiö might be a good name for this location.

Korsholm location (Mustasaari in Finnish): Mustasaari (and its translations) is a good name for this location.

Storkyro location (Isokyrö in Finnish): Isokyrö (and its translations) is a good name for this location.

Vörå location (Vöyri in Finnish): Vöyri (and its translations) is probably a good name for this location.

Lappo location (Lapua in Finnish): Lapua (and its translations) is probably a good name for this location.

Pedersöre location (Pietarsaari in Finnish): Pietarsaari (and its translations) is a good name for this location.

Kaustby location (Kaustinen in Finnish): Kaustinen (and its translations) is probably a good name for this location.

Karleby location (Kokkola in Finnish): Kokkola (and its translations) is a good name for this location.

Brahestad location (Raahe in Finnish): Raahe was founded only in 1649 (by Per Brahe). Saloinen, which existed in some capacity already in 14th century, might be a better name for this location.

Uleåborg location (Oulu in Finnish): Oulu (and its translations) is a good name for this location.

Kuivan[unclear] location: Is this supposed to be Kuivaniemi? Ii is a much better name for this location, since Ii existed in some capacity already in 14th century.

Simo location: Simo (and its translations) is probably a good name for this location.

Kiemi location: There’s a typo here, but otherwise Kemi (and its translations) is a good name for this location.

Spoiler: Intre Österbotten

Intre Österbotten province (Sisä-Pohjanmaa in Finnish, I think): Kainuu (Kajanaland in Swedish) might be a better name for this province, especially if some of the westernmost locations are switched to other provinces.

Rovaniemi location: Rovaniemi is otherwise a good name for this location, but apparently Rovaniemi area was known as Korkala until 18th century (although there’s some mention of “Rovaniemi” as a name of farm/ranch in mid-15th century).

Korvala location: Vikajärvi (named after a lake with the same name) might be a better name here, especially if you rename Rovaniemi to Korkala (because having Korvala and Korkala next to each other could be pretty confusing).

Kemijärvi location: Kemijärvi (and its translations) is probably a good name for this location.

Salla location: Salla is probably a good name for this location as it is, but (and this is rather big but) the eastern border of this location follows post-WWII border, so it’s highly anachronic for this game. If this location extended further to east, then a better name would be Kuolajärvi since Salla was known as Kuolajärvi until 1936, but the actual village of Kuolajärvi is in the parts ceded to Soviet Union (which are outside this location as it currently is). Alternatively Kuolajärvi could be a good name for a completely new location right east of Salla in the currently empty wasteland area.

Posio location: Posio municipality was founded only in 1926, but the name “Posio” has been in use before that for some village. A better name for this location might be Kitka, the name of the ancient siida in this area.

Ranua location: Ranua municipality was founded only in 1917 (and parish in 1899), but it is still perhaps the best name for this location due to Ranuanjärvi (Ranua Lake).

Pudasjärvi location: Pudasjärvi (and its translations) is probably a good name for this location.

Taivalkoski location: Taivalkoski was part of Pudasjärvi until 1842. The name was initially Jokijärvi (because that’s the name of the village where the church was built). Taivalkoski village grew faster than Jokijärvi (because sawmill was built there), so the modern-day municipality is called Taivalkoski. Jokijärvi is probably a better name for this location, since Jokijärvi village is reportedly one of the first inhabited areas within this location.

Kuusamo location: Kuusamo (and its translations) is probably a good name for this location.

Suomussalmi location: Suomussalmi (and its translations) is probably a good name for this location.

Kuhmo location: Kuhmo (and its translations) is probably a good name for this location.

Sotkamo location: Sotkamo (and its translations) is probably a good name for this location.

Paltamo location: Paltamo (and its translations) is probably a good name for this location. Although please note that the locations of Paltamo, Sotkamo and Kajana are somewhat strange considering how the present day Paltamo, Sotkamo and Kajaani are located relatively to each other.

Utajärvi location: Utajärvi was part of Muhos until 1865, but Utajärvi matches geographically this location better. Both Utajärvi and Muhos are probably good names for this location.

Sikkalatva location: There’s probably a typo here and this should be Siikalatva instead? Siikalatva is a name for a modern day municipality. Pulkkila is probably the best name for this location.

Spoiler: Eastern Lappland

Eastern Lappland province (Itä-Lappi in Finnish): decent name, I suppose. Might a be good idea to rename this just to “Lappi” when dynamically named in Finnish.

Kittilä location
Sodankylä location
Savukoski location
Ivalo location
Utsjoki location
Enare location (Inari in Finnish)
These are all probably good names, but I don’t really know enough to comment.

Nunnanen location: Nunnanen is a small village within Enontekiö and I’m pretty sure Enontekiö is located within the geographic area of this location, so might be a good idea to rename this location to Enontekiö.

Spoiler: Norra Lappland & Västerbotten

Norra Lappland and Västerbotten province
I’m not going to go through these provinces in full, only the Finland-related locations that I know something about.

Kasivarren location: This is most likely not any real name, but incorrectly cut part of the term “Käsivarren Lappi” (Lappland of the arm), referring to the “arm” of post-1809 Finland. Kilpisjärvi would be a good name for this location. Depending on how conquest works in this game, 1809 borders might be impossible if this location remains within Norra Lappland province. Consider switching this to Eastern Lappland province.

Enontakis location (Enontekiö in Finnish): if Nunnanen location is renamed to Enontekiö, then this one needs some other name. Markkina might be a good name for this location, since it was an important marketplace in this area. (“Markkina” literally means “marketplace”.) Depending on how conquest works in this game, 1809 borders might be impossible if this location remains within Norra Lappland province. Consider switching this to Eastern Lappland province.

Mourionska location: Is this supposed to be Muonionniska (the pre-1923 name for Muonio)? Muonionniska is probably a good name for this location. Depending on how conquest works in this game, 1809 borders might be impossible if this location remains within Norra Lappland province. Consider switching this to Eastern Lappland province.

Pajala location: Pajala (and its translations) is probably a good name for this location.

Hienatiemi location: There’s probably a typo here and it should be Hietaniemi instead. Hietaniemi was part of Ylitornio until 1637, so Ylitornio might be a better name for this location.

Torneå location (Tornio in Finnish): Tornio might be a good name for this location, although it is a bit weird considering potential future borders. (Tornio went to Finnish/Russian side of the border after 1809, but vast majority of the geographic are of this location remained in Swedish side.) Maybe something like Kalix instead?

 

[Galleblære]

Of the maps from the first book, I'd like to highlight this specific map, of skipreide ca 1300.
View attachment 1165439

Would be wonderful to see province names similar to this for a divergent independent Norway, and have them change to the historical ones under a Danish or Swedish overlord if dynamic names are implemented.

 

[TraditionalistLeo]

There's lots of Finns already commenting varying things about the Finnish region here, and I want to join in. The reason why people have such different understandings of the cultures is that we Finns generally aren't taught about late iron age (nor medieval) subcultures of the region and our history education focuses on the lifestyle of the people, their population density and the research methods with which we can learn about them.

Still, I have some thoughts about the cultures which may or may not have been mentioned by other people before me.

1. I really like that the Kvens and Bjarmians were included, because they definitely existed, although much is not known about them. Earlier I linked this Finnish source about them, but because Paradox employees don't speak Finnish, let me nutshell it: Kvens and Bjarmians were both basically Tavastians who just lived really far away from Tavastia (and likely were in the 14th century culturally separate). Tavastians were the first "tribe" of the Finnish region and used to originally be in a very large area, but then Karelians were born as a group and settled the east, pushing Tavastians west and leaving the Bjarmians on the other side in the far East.
Savonians came to be before the 14th century as a sort-of mix between Tavastians and Karelians.

2. Kvens and Bjarmians both are settling too much land in the map right now though. There should be less Kvens in Kajanaland (Kainuu) which I think should be majority Sapmi with some Karelians as a minority. Kvens probably should have some small populations in all locations of the Torneå valley, perhaps up to the Norwegian border, although of course Sapmi should still be the majority in most of Lapland.

I don't think there were Bjarmians in Kola, which should be Sapmi lands. The White sea coast also needs to be more Karelian, although it's not too far fetched to have some Bjarmians in the White Karelian coast. The core area of the Bjarmians should be pretty much the same place where the Pomors are, unfortunately I have no idea about which group had more people and where.

3. As some others have pointed out, Sapmi people should be everywhere in rural areas. Most of Ostrobothnia needs to have Sapmi pops, Kajanaland needs to have Sapmi pops, North Tavastia and North Savonia definitely need to have Sapmi, at least as a minority if not the majority. They are supposed to be everywhere rural in small pops, and be pushed north later when the Christianized Finns, Tavastians, Savonians and Karelians take their lands throughout the years.

4. Some Finns in the comments have confused Kvens with Ostrobothnians. These are two different groups of people. Kvens were basically Tavastians who were separated from the "real" Tavastians and lived in Lapland and northern Ostrobothnia. Ostrobothnians (pohjalaiset), on the other hand, should refer to the Finnish-speaking people now living in the regions of Ostrobothnia (Pohjanmaa) and South Ostrobothnia (Etelä-Pohjanmaa). I think they were only born as a group after Gustav Vasa came into power and Swedes started seriously settling the Ostrobothnian coast. Southern Ostrobothnians are ethnically a mix of Swedes and people from Finland proper. I think there could be some event in the game that makes them exist at a certain point if the conditions are met.

From the 17th century onwards, Savonians and Ostrobothnians went north and settled Middle- and North-Ostrobothnia. I think those should be mainly Sapmi at the game start, but in the late game be mostly a mix between Savonians and Ostrobothnians (if Ostrobothnians come to exist, otherwise Finns is fine).

5. Tavastians are too small in the game start. Finns should mostly exist in the Swedish ruled areas, and especially Finland proper and South-western Satakunta. There needs to be Tavastians in Birkaland and Uusimaa!

Here's map from Wikipedia where Tavastian dialects are spoken today.
It's crucial that in 1337 the Tavastians have more land area than the Finns. (Still there should be more Finnish population than Tavastian, because their settlements were more urban.)

Overall I'm already really happy with how the map is looking. It's a huge improvement from anything the region has seen in Paradox games until now!

 

[Galleblære]

I did some map work on the south of Norway to make it more interesting. The names are quite old, but the language should still be norse in 1337. It's easy to choose a more modern naming convention if desired. I'm probably not gonna finish this entirely so I'm posting it since it covers most impassable areas that would make gameplay more interesting.


View attachment 1166090

Wonderful!

 

[Andy_Dandy]

Realised I forgot to talk about anything but locations, so I'll do a small addendum
Whichever province ends up holding the area around Hyllestad, which in my proposal would be Lavik (or Askvoll), should have STONE as its resource.

This is because the hyllestad quarries were one of the most important quarries in the country, making millstones found not only all over the country but in other parts of northern europe, like germany and the baltics. It was a thousand year industry which employed 1k+ people at times.

Hyllestad quernstone quarries - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Secondly, and this may be surprising if you don't know the climate, but parts of sogn should produce FRUIT. They were in the middle ages one of the biggest fruit producing regions in the entire nordics, only beaten by Hardanger. We have letters from 1300 talking about fruit gardens in Sogndal, and in King Sverre's saga even earlier they speak of a man killed in a "fruit garden" in Vik.

From Norsk Frukthistorie (Norwegian fruit history):

View attachment 1165494

Fruktdyrking = fruit cultivation. Eplegard = Apple yard.

If my map is used, I'd recommend VIK and SOGNDAL to get FRUITS as a resource.

For the remaining provinces, a mix of FISH, LIVESTOCK, LUMBER would probably be the safest bet and I doubt anybody would complain. West Coast had hard areas to farm, but you could find a decent amount of grazeland, in particular further up the mountains. A lot of the regions map will have places be named -støl which essentially just means "high up grazeland."

EDIT:

Added some more sourcing

I'll just summarize the most outstanding issues of the region from previous post:
- Too little waterways, nordfjorden is too small, sognefjorden doesn't have most of its branches, sunnfjord's fjords aren't on the map
- Wastelands in areas that very much were settled, like Jølster, Stryn, Olden, Fjærland, Borgund, and even Aurland even though its a location
- Ytre Sogn is in sunnfjord on the map here, which irks me. Even being conservative here, there is more than enough space from the big surrounding provinces to make something more accurate here. At least make one called Lavik or Klævold that contains ytre sogn that is currently in Sunnfjord and Nordhordland.
- Aurland is not in Aurland. If not changed, it should be renamed to Vik.
- Sogndal should at minimum be split into Sogndal and Lærdal, though i'd love more.
- Lack of inner valleys of eastern norway, and the route across filefjell.

Very true. But one problem is the end of the medieval warm period from ca 1350, with a sudden and brutal drop in temperatures. It changed alot, and is just 12-13 years in gamewise.

 

[Red_warning]

The names are quite old, but the language should still be norse in 1337.

Is this really true for Norwegian? If I read the Eric chronicles, written in ca 1330, I can understand most of it, the only real challenge is to make sense of the weird spelling. It's Swedish granted, but still.

Example from wikipedia:

Birger jerl, þen wise man.
Han loot Stockholms stad at byggia
'med digert with oc mykin hyggia,
eþ fagerþ hus ok en goðan stað
alla leð swa gjort som han bað.
Þet er laas fore þen sio,
swa at karela göra þem enga oroo.
Þen sio er god, iak sigher for whi:
nittan kyrkiosokner liggia þer i
ok um kring sion siu köpstäde.

IMHO, this is more close to modern Swedish than Norse. Wouldn't Norwegian have followed a similar development pattern?

 

[Fjellfyr]

I did some map work on the south of Norway to make it more interesting. The names are quite old, but the language should still be norse in 1337. It's easy to choose a more modern naming convention if desired. I'm probably not gonna finish this entirely so I'm posting it since it covers most impassable areas that would make gameplay more interesting.


View attachment 1166090

I absolutely love it. The crossings are great to see. Would be happy to play this map.

I do think Kaupangr might be slightly out of the timeframe, as Lærdal would take primacy as market for the region, and both Systrond and Sogndal being more important settlements within the locations border at the time. I also think the province should touch hyllestad, as the tjugum-dragsvik area were settled.

Hyllestad is a fine name due to the quarries, though for the period Lavik or Klævold might be better. Whatever the name, would be nice if it included the south side of the fjord.

 

[TraditionalistLeo]

Mikael Agricola lists the heimot as: Finns, Tavastians and Karelians. Obviously not an authoritative source though.

This is because the tribes have kind of a "hierarchy" of representation, if I'm saying that correctly.

There's three or two "main tribes": these are Finns, Tavastians and Karelians, or just Tavastians and Karelians (who are today commonly referred to as "Western Finns" (länsisuomalaiset) and "Eastern Finns" (itäsuomalaiset)).

Finns and Ostrobothnians can kinda be viewed as subgroups of Tavastians, whereas Savonians are a subgroup of Karelians. Savonians are ethnically a mix between Karelians and Tavastians, with a little bit of Laplander blood in there too.

 

[Rundstych]

I really love this map! There are a few things I see though, as someone from Western Norway:

The borders of the locations "Fosna" and "Orkdal" in the Romsdal and Sør-Trøndelag provinces should be adjusted. The peninsula in the Orkdal location that split up part of Fosna from Sunndal, is the former municipality of Halsa, which is a part of the historical district of Nordmøre (basically the Fosna location + the Sunndal location), but was recently merged with a municipality in Trøndelag, and thus switched region. Having it be a part of Orkdal here feels wrong in a historical context.

The green part in the picture is the district of Nordmøre. I agree that it should be split in two locations as you have done, but it would be great to have the borders be more historically accurate, so may I suggest this:

The names of Fosna and Sunndal are great though!

The location "Sunnmøre" should also have a different name, as the real-world Sunnmøre also encompasses the in-game locations of "Borgund" and "Størdal" (Stordal). As for alternative names, I would suggest Hareid, a modern town which dates back to a settlement from the 13th century, or the name "Søre Sunnmøre" (Southern Sunnmøre), which is used collectively for this area even today.

The Grenland location should perhaps be named Telemark instead, as the location called Skien is where the actual Grenland is. Skien is the main city in the traditional district of Grenland, which was a coastal district in the middle-ages, whereas Telemark was a inland district.

The location called Stavanger is where the name Jæren should be. Jæren as seen in the dev diary picture is actually "Dalane", another traditional district.

On this map of Rogaland, the blue is "Haugaland", the yellow is "Ryfylke", the pink is "Jæren" and the green is "Dalane".


As for Bohuslän, or Båhuslen in Norwegian: Uddevalla in traditional Norwegian is Oddevold, Kungahälla is Konghelle or (archaic) Konungahella, Strömstad would be Strømstad or perhaps Straumstad if you want to sound more old Norwegian.

The population seems about right, I remember reading that Norway had about half a million inhabitants before the Black Death.

I hope this feedback is taken into consideration. I can't wait to play this game

 

[Fjellfyr]

EDIT: Correct some wrong numbers due to a wrong addition I made when adding together Project Caesar provinces. Changes the proportions slightly but still with the same conclusion.

With the talk about Bergen vs Oslo region's population on previous pages, I wanted to go look for some sources for population estimates for Norway.
Overall population is more than fair at 469k, as historians say Norway's population was between 350k-500k with leaning towards the higher end. We do not need to increase it, but is it correctly distributed?

Now, we don't have any hard numbers on population from 1300s, and anything we have tend to be estimates based on numbers from 1600s. However, something we DO have hard numbers on is the military expectations of the various regions, with exception of the region north of hålogaland and the region between trøndelag and borgarting (so the inner valleys).

To keep things short, in 1300s the administrative unit of skipreide wasn't just a taxland, but also organisational units that were expected to build, maintain, and crew a ship. The military service was known as leidang. We do know 4 things:

1) How many ships each region would have
2) The make of these ships, and thus how many oarsmen they would have, and estimates to what a full crew would be as well. Full crew was about twice as many as oarsmen.
3) The rules for how large part of the population could be called into service
4) That you were mandated to (with only a few exceptions) serve in the region which you lived in, and that serving leidang on the wrong ship was equivalent to not serving, making you liable for fine and punishment.

The ship makes were tjuesesse (20-seater), tjuefemsesse (25-seater) and tredvesesse (30-seater). There would be two oarsmen per seat. Full crew seem to have been estimated as twice as many as the oarsmen, with 30-seater having 120 as crew, and 25-seater with 100 as crew. Source for this is "Norsk forsvarshistorie, bind 1: Krigsmakt og kongemakt".

The rule for military service was, according to gulatingsloven "One per seven heads" could be called in. For this purpose, men and women counted both as heads, and depending on reading it was either anyone above the age of 7 or anyone above the age of 3. For all intents and purposes, it was "overall population." To my knowledge the different regions all had equal application of this rule after Magnus Lagabøte's Landslov. The leidang was also meant to be adjusted according to whatever was the population, though to what degree that happened who knows. Borders for these regions had been adjusted within 50 year of gamestart, and the leidang would be called into service for a century after this time, so it was not yet turned into units that were for tax purposes.



So I decided to set up a table. Again, do note a full crew would be twice as many as oarsmen, and so min pop would rise accordingly to double. But those are estimates, instead of hard numbers, so I preferred to use what we're certain about. If you just quickly want oarsmen numbers for verification, you can see the picture or see the table here on the bottom of wikipedia. https://no.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leidang

Province	Oarsmen expected	Min Pop for oarsmen alone	% of leidang	Caesar's pop	% of Caesar skipreide pop*
Hålogaland	580	4060	4.2%	5385	1.4%
Naumadal	360	2520	2.7%	1535	0.4%
Trøndelag	3200	22400	23.6%	67780	17.8%
Nordmøre	800	5600	5.9%	13101	3.4%
Romsdal	400	2800	3%	7066	1.9%
Sunnmøre	800	5600	5.9%	6103	1.6%
Firda	1000	7000	7.4%	7066	1.9%
Sogn	800	5600	5.9%	8066	2.1%
Hordaland	1200	8400	8.9%	52075	13.7%

Rogaland	1200	8400	8.9%	31194	8.2%
Agder	800	5600	5.9%	26070	6.9%
Borgarting**	2400**	16800**	17.7%	154562	40.7%

*Percentage of population within was skipreide, not entire norway
**Borgarting specifies "plus Grenlandship". How many these are I've not found, but it means Borgarting should have a higher % of pop than its equivalent of leidang due to the ships from Grenland. Vast majority of the population in the region do however live in the region outside of Grenland.

Based on the military expectations, I do think that population is a bit wrongly distributed. If borgarting was truly this populated, it would have carried a bigger share of the leidang, in particular since it would be in the borderland. Bergen and Nidaros were also the two most populated settlements.

Naumadal-region seem most critical to change, as it can't actually field its oarsmen with Caesar's pop, much less the full crew. South-western part of Gulating seem to be mostly fine, while the north-western part seem underpopulated. Several of these regions barely meet minimum pop for oarsmen, and fall short of whats needed for legally making a full crew. The "min pop needed" total add up to less than 100k, so any of these regions would likely be several times more populated than minimum, and the entire region in Caesar has 380k so these places could get a bigger share of pop. Trøndelag also seem to carry less of a "population center" than it truly was back then.

Based on this, my suggestion is to transfer some of the population from borgarting-region, to what would be primarily the long stretch hålogaland->sogn including trøndelag.

 

[Fjellfyr]

Very true. But one problem is the end of the medieval warm period from ca 1350, with a sudden and brutal drop in temperatures. It changed alot, and is just 12-13 years in gamewise.

To my knowledge fruit cultivation continued throughout the entire period, we have written records of it not only prior to start date but 50 years, 100 years, 150 years afterwards as well. Fruit cultivation is not only still going on in the region, but spread to more corners of it.

 

[DoctorSnakes]

I did some map work on the south of Norway to make it more interesting. The names are quite old, but the language should still be norse in 1337. It's easy to choose a more modern naming convention if desired. I'm probably not gonna finish this entirely so I'm posting it since it covers most impassable areas that would make gameplay more interesting.


View attachment 1166090

No, it should not "still be Norse" in 1337. This was the period of Middle Norwegian/Old Norwegian (transitional period between the two), which was pretty close to Norse, but still quite different. For example, you use the antiquated r-ending in many of the names. Raumsdalr should be Raumssdalle or something like that, as seen here in 1347.

 

[Xaroz]

First reactions:
- Ulfsby is very misplaced. It would be in the same location as Björneborg. Looking from the location, to me Ikalis (Ikaalinen) would be a better name for that province.
The province should probably start as Ulfsby and be renamed by an event to Björneborg.
- Kotka was founded 1879, and doesn't belong in the game. Try Kymi if you don't get a better suggestion.
- The Swedish name of Provoo is Borgå, the Swedish name of Koivisto is Björkö, and the Swedish name of Mikkeli is St. Michel.
- Finland needs more marshes, sadly I'm not sure which provinces to suggest. (Can't find a good reference on the net). Looking at my old atlas, I would suggest the coastal province north of Uleåborg, the coastal province south of Uleåborg, and Kemijärvi could have a terrain change to marsh.
- Koppo? Did you mean Koppö, the old name of Kristinestad?

Agree.

And location "Koppo" is Koppö. Some rocks and a fishing hut at the start of the game. Later Kristinestad is founded here. The location name should be Närpes or Nerpis as it was spelled at the time. Thats the original parish center of the time. Founded before game start, and the church there too.