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Tinto Maps #11 - 19th of July 2024 - Scandinavia

Welcome everyone, today I’ll talk about the Scandinavian region. Part of it was the first maps we drew for Project Caesar back in early spring of 2020. Today we will look at all parts of the Scandinavian Peninsula (including Denmark & the Kola Peninsula). Greenland & Iceland will be looked at in a separate map talk.

Countries
SCA_countries.png

Scandinavia has only five location based countries at the start of the game. Denmark, who is in a bit of a crisis at the moment and their vassal Schleswig is in the south. On the peninsula proper, we have Sweden and Norway who are in a union at the moment as they share the same King. Scania was sold off to Sweden by the Danes five years before the start of the game.

There is no need to show off a Dynasty map, as Denmark does not exactly have a ruling King at the moment, and the rest is ruled by Magnus IV of the Bjälbo Dynasty.

Locations

sca_northlocations.png

sca_eastlocations.png

sca_westlocations.png

sca_centralocations.png


sca_southlocations.png

While Scandinavia has a lot of locations, we have to remember that this is a huge area, and together with Kola & Karelia, it is the same size as France, Spain, Portugal, Italy & Benelux together.. The size of locations are smaller in the south, particularly where the population was and still is relatively bigger.


Provinces
sca_provinces.png

We have tried to follow historical traditional province borders here, but some ended up too big like Småland, Lappland or Österbotten, which were cut into pieces, and some are just too tiny to matter.

Now I wish I had time to write up a history about each province here, but I’ll just add a few fun tidbits.

Satakunta, which is the Finnish name, is named in Finnish like the old regions of Svitjod, which were divided into “hundreds”. It was also refered to Björneborgs län, named after Björneborg (Pori in Finnish), a town founded by Johan III when Ulfsby was no longer accessible from the sea. The regiment from the area was the last Swedish Army Regiment that has ever won a battle inside Sweden, and their military march is a song I think every Finnish Citizen want to play repeatedly on TV during the Olympics..

Småland, which is divided into Tiohärad and Kalmar Län here, should really be referred to as Småländerna, as there were 12 small countries there.. Compared to the 3 other much larger countries of Svealand, Östra Götaland and Västra Götaland. And now why is Östra Götaland not containing Kinda?

Topograhy
sca_topography.png

It's mostly flatland.. I went by the rule that if the peaks are less than 500 meters it's flatland, and you need to have over 1,000 meters and rather uneven to be a mountain. Norway is interesting there.. We do have a lot of impassable areas in Norway, making this one of the most fun parts to play in.

Vegetation
sca_vegetation.png

There are some farmlands in Denmark, Scania and in Götaland, but the rest is basically a big forest.. And up north it's even worse.

Climate
sca_climate.png

Yeah, well. There is a reason I moved to Spain..


Cultures
sca_culture.png

Most of the north east is still Sami, and the Finnish tribes have not unified into the more modern Finnish culture. We decided to call the modern Meänkieli with their more ancient name of Kven. We still have Gutnish on Gotland, but the Norwegian, Danish and Swedish cultures have been becoming more monolithic already.

Religions
sca_religion.png


The Finnish are mostly Catholic, but the Sami, Tavastian, Savonia, Bjarmian and Karelians are mostly still following their old pagan beliefs. There are still some Norse people in the forests of Dalarna and Västmanland..

Raw Materials
sca_rawmaterials.png

It is mostly lumber, fish, wild game, fur and iron. We of course have the famous copper mountain as well.

Markets
sca_market.png

Scandinavia is divided by the rich markets of Lübeck and Riga. A strong Scandinavian country will probably want to set up their own unified market.


Population
sca_pop.png



Not many people live up in the north..
sca_eastpops.png


sca_west_pops.png

sca_south_pops.png

I liked nice round numbers as estimates, but the team I hired for content design are mad men, and wanted the distribution to feel more organic.. For the far north of Scandinavia we know that people were semi nomadic, and that some people lived there.. But if it was 100 there, or 250 there or 20 there it's just guesswork..


And let's end with a quote from the Greatest of Poets..

Jag vill, jag skall bli frisk, det får ej prutas,
Jag måste upp, om jag i graven låg.
Lyss, hör, ni hör kanonerna vid Jutas;
Där avgörs finska härens återtåg.



Next week Pavia is back with some German maps…
 
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I can read every single word of this as an Icelander, so no need to guess here. This is a blatantly Norse text. The other text is a little more difficult, but definitely not closer to modern Swedish than Norse, I think.

Having a Niðarós, Björgvin, Stafangur, Kaupmannahöfn, etc. on the map would definitely be really cool. If Paradox prefers these old names, you can almost merge them with Iceland's naming localisation in Scandinavia, small orthographic tweaks aside.
The three Norwegian place names you mention were Nidarose, Biorgvin and Stavangre (or something like that, each author wrote it slightly differently) in contemporary records. If the place names are to be changed to be more historically accurate, then it should be closer to how it was written at the time rather than how it would be in modern Icelandic.
 
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Alright, so i have updated my privious proposal for Denmark. Here is the location map i came up with:

View attachment 1166172


I included Holstein this time around. Here is a few comments: Some of the locations are small, most notebly Ribe, Hamburg and Lübeck. all being about the size of the Oslo location, so it should be fine, right? The borders of Ribe is kinda wierd. This is to represent the Royal Enclaves, parts of Nørrejylland enclaved in Schleswig. Fehmarn is also seperated from the mainland, as it was under Schleswig control, and this was the best way of showcasing that. If that is not possible, add it to Kiel i guess, but that would be sad D:. All in all, the locations of Denmark were big, compared to other parts of scandinavia, despite being the most densly populated part, so i really think adding a few locations is justified.

View attachment 1166112

This is what the province map mode would look like. Now most of the changes i would like to see is in regard to the political setup of Denmark in 1337. Denmark as a country kinda didn't exist, as the entire country was mortgaged to a few Holteinian counts. (one of which sold scania to Sweden). Instead of just seeing Denmark start in an interegnium, i think this would be a more interesting way of representing the starting situation:

View attachment 1166144

Holstein had been partitioned since 1261, so i included it as partitioned. The notable people here were Count Gerhard III of Holstein-Rendsburg, aka "the bald count", who was the most powerfull person in Denmark at the time. It was him that deposed King Valdemar III, (who then became Duke Valdemar V of Schleswig). The only real challenger to Gerhard's power was Count John III of Holstein-Pöln, aka "John the mild", who controled Zealand. I think Showing Denmark as seperated as Dominions under these Counts would better represent the situation at the time.

Now on april 1. 1340, the squire Niels Ebbesen killed the bald count, and then proclaimed Christopher II's heir to be the new king of Denmark. Thus Valdemar IV "Atterdag" came to power in Jutland. Ebbesen continued south, trying to free Schleswig, but was killed. Initially Valdemar Atterdag only controled the area north of the Limfjord, and had to rebuy the rest of the country, but most of that was handled through his marriage. Zealand would take a few years to rebuy, needing Valdemar to sell Estonia. Valdemar would eventually walk into Scania pratically unimposed, and would later conquer Gotland. He failed to retake Schleswig though, which would remain under Holteinian Dukes until Eric of Pommerania retook it in 1424.

The way i see this pan out is to have an event in 1340, wherein Gerhard III is killed, and Valdemar Atterdag becomes king of Jutland (Capital properly in Viborg). He would have very low control in the entire country, so you have to sort that out asap. an event about his marriage could give more control. Then an event in schleswig would spawn rebels led by Ebbesen. Another event would trigger in 1346, where Valdemar can choose to sell Estonia and get Zealand in return, just outright buy Zealand if you have the money, or let John III keep it for now. This is a simplification, but one that gets the situation across quite well.

I should add that Valdemar faced a lot of revolts during the time, so maybe a disaster should be triggered, if that system is still in place. Also, the Duchy of Estonia was without a Viceroy at the time, but Denmark would reapoint one in 1340. However, they would loose control in the saint George's night uprising in 1343, whereafter the Teutonic order would practically control the duchy until it was sold.

I also think that the rise of Queen Magrethe 1. should be scripted. She changed the course of Scandinavia history so much. Also, here is an area map:

View attachment 1166169
I think your localisations makes a lot of sense, but the central jutland borders still bothered me, so here is a alternative version. where the Vestjylland + Østjylland borders makes more sense.
Kolding, Varde and Vejle are awkward because they don't really belong in vest or østjylland (IMO) so I made them their own province, hence I thought it would be best to split Kolding into two localisations. But they cannot be attached to Nord slesvig either. I think a Himmerland situation would work. So something like Jelling, named after Jellingsyssel like Himmerland is named after the Himmersyssel.

I also took the opportunity to replace the names with older ones. As suggested (mostly) by @Danskjävel
Jyllands forslag.png


My suggestions
Vendsyssel-Thy:
Tystath
: Farmland + Wheat.
Jhoringy: Grassland + Fish
Sæby: (Sæby during this period is the more important town, and defacto købsted.) Grassland + Fish or Salt

Vestjylland:
Holstatbro
: I changed Lemvig to Holstebro, due to it being located more there than in your other localisation. Grassland + Livestock
Gøldorp: this area didn't get a town before Herning in the 19th century. There could be an argument to just merge it with Holstatbro but I think it makes sense to have it separate this is likely Denmarks least populated localization. grassland + wool / livestock
Rennumkøpingh: Grassland + livestock.

Himmerland:
Aars:
Grassland + Fish, (might be worth naming it after Løgstør? which seems to have been more important.)
Alaburg: Grassland + Fish / Wheat
Vibiærgh: Farmland + Wheat
Randeros: Farmland + Horses
Skyuæ: Farmland + Wheat

Østjylland:
Æpplætoftæ:
grassland + Lumber / Fish
Arus: Farmland + legumes.
Horsnæs: Farmland + Horses

Jelling:
Wæthle:
Farmland + Livestock
Kaldyng: Farmland + Salt
Warwith: Grassland + Fish

Nordslesvig:
Hatherslef:
Grassland + Horses
Obenroe: Farmland + Legumes / Wheat
Tunder: marsh + fish
Ripa: Grassland + livestock

Sydslesvig:
Huzum:
marsh + livestock.
Flensaburgh: grasland + legumes
Slesvig: grassland + clay
Ekerenvordhe: grassland + legumes

Funen:
Asenz:
Farmland + Fish
Odansue: Farmland + Wheat
Swineburgh: Farmland + Livestock

Nordsjælland:
Kalundæburgh:
farmland + medicaments
Roschilde: farmland + wheat
Hælsingør: woods + fish
Hafn: farmland + fish / wheat

Sydsjælland:
Slauløsæ:
farmland + wheat
Worhtingburg: farmland + fish / wheat
Nacascogh: farmland + legumes/wheat (whichever is the most valuable)
Nykoping: Farmland + legumes / wheat (which ever is the most valuable)
 
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I did some map work on the south of Norway to make it more interesting. The names are quite old, but the language should still be norse in 1337. It's easy to choose a more modern naming convention if desired. I'm probably not gonna finish this entirely so I'm posting it since it covers most impassable areas that would make gameplay more interesting.


View attachment 1166090
Wonderful. Inland Norway is quite similar to what I proposed myself. The names are great too. You're selling the valleys and mountains well here, this would be an interesting place to fight and build infrastructure in :D

The route across Sognefjellet should be added IMO, but other than that I'm not a fan but rather a whole air conditioner.

Edit: The reduced province density may also allow them to merge Oppland and Hedmark into Opplandene or Opplanda, which would be more historically accurate.
 
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I've read that Iceland should have about 40-50.000 people in the 12th century, down from a bit higher earlier due to a severe smallpox epidemic. Greenland could be 4.000 + inuits, Faroe Islands 2.700, Orkney 2-4.000?, Shetland about the same as the Orkneys? If included as Norway then one needs to porportionally reduce all norwegian regions.
Iceland should have 70-80k people, our high during the medieval warm period. It was at that level pretty much until the Black Death finally came in 1402, plus the little ice age at around the same time. The 40-50k range is our absolute low from the disastrous 18th century.

I'm saving this for the map thread, since we don't know yet which number the devs chose.
 
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I did some map work on the south of Norway to make it more interesting. The names are quite old, but the language should still be norse in 1337. It's easy to choose a more modern naming convention if desired. I'm probably not gonna finish this entirely so I'm posting it since it covers most impassable areas that would make gameplay more interesting.


View attachment 1166090
I just realised, Aurland/Voss need to have a little arm touching eachother, otherwise the primary east-west route doesn't exist.

Route went Valdres -> Lærdal -> Aurland -> Voss -> Bergen.

Unlike crossings east-west, this wouldn't need to be an uninhabitable stretch, just part of location of Voss (ideally) or Aurland.
 
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I think your localisations makes a lot of sense, but the central jutland borders still bothered me, so here is a alternative version. where the Vestjylland + Østjylland borders makes more sense.
Kolding, Varde and Vejle are awkward because they don't really belong in vest or østjylland (IMO) so I made them their own province, hence I thought it would be best to split Kolding into two localisations. But they cannot be attached to Nord slesvig either. I think a Himmerland situation would work. So something like Jelling, named after Jellingsyssel like Himmerland is named after the Himmersyssel.

I also took the opportunity to replace the names with older ones. As suggested (mostly) by @Danskjävel
View attachment 1166238

My suggestions
Vendsyssel-Thy:
Tystath
: Farmland + Wheat.
Jhoringy: Grassland + Fish
Sæby: (Sæby during this period is the more important town, and defacto købsted.) Grassland + Fish or Salt

Vestjylland:
Holstatbro
: I changed Lemvig to Holstebro, due to it being located more there than in your other localisation. Grassland + Livestock
Gøldorp: this area didn't get a town before Herning in the 19th century. There could be an argument to just merge it with Holstatbro but I think it makes sense to have it separate this is likely Denmarks least populated localization. grassland + wool / livestock
Rennumkøpingh: Grassland + livestock.

Himmerland:
Aars:
Grassland + Fish, (might be worth naming it after Løgstør? which seems to have been more important.)
Alaburg: Grassland + Fish / Wheat
Vibiærgh: Farmland + Wheat
Randeros: Farmland + Horses
Skyuæ: Farmland + Wheat

Østjylland:
Æpplætoftæ:
grassland + Lumber / Fish
Arus: Farmland + legumes.
Horsnæs: Farmland + Horses

Jelling:
Wæthle:
Farmland + Livestock
Kaldyng: Farmland + Salt
Warwith: Grassland + Fish

Nordslesvig:
Hatherslef:
Grassland + Horses
Obenroe: Farmland + Legumes / Wheat
Tunder: marsh + fish
Ripa: Grassland + livestock

Sydslesvig:
Huzum:
marsh + livestock.
Flensaburgh: grasland + legumes
Slesvig: grassland + clay
Ekerenvordhe: grassland + legumes

Funen:
Asenz:
Farmland + Fish
Odansue: Farmland + Wheat
Swineburgh: Farmland + Livestock

Nordsjælland:
Kalundæburgh:
farmland + medicaments
Roschilde: farmland + wheat
Hælsingør: woods + fish
Hafn: farmland + fish / wheat

Sydsjælland:
Slauløsæ:
farmland + wheat
Worhtingburg: farmland + fish / wheat
Nacascogh: farmland + legumes/wheat (whichever is the most valuable)
Nykoping: Farmland + legumes / wheat (which ever is the most valuable)
I like this too!. Merging Vejle and Kolding was the last thing i did, so i am fine with splitting them up again. The reason i did the weird borders around Holsterbro, is due to there just being nothing in your Gøldorp location, but i like both ways tbh. I though Lemvig made for a better location than Gøldorp, but yeah, it makes Holsterbro weird.

Kolding, Varde, and Vejle were merged into East and West jutland to reduce the number of 3-location provinces, not because i thought it reflected the Sysler well.

I guess Johan said that they prefer older names for the locations. I disagree, as all the names changed so much during the 500 years the game spans, but i am not one to make that call. Also, the rest of the game is in modern English, so i think the place names should reflect modern spelling, at least where the spelling didn't change for reasons other that natural language change.

Also cannot find evidence of Løgster being a thing in 1337, which is why i chose Aars. I also debated Sæby vs. Skagen, but Skagen became a Købstad in 1413, while Sæby didn't become one until 1524. It is a situation similar to Djursland, where Grenaa was more important, but in 1337, Ebeltoft were the more important town. I wonder how they will handle these cases.
 
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Then

Kalundborg --> Kalundæburgh
Helsingør --> Hælsingør
Roskilde --> Roschilde
København --> Hafn/Køpmannæhafn
Ringsted --> Ringstade
Slagelse --> Slauløsæ
Vordingborg --> Worthingburg
NyKøbing (Falster) --> Nykobing
Lolland (or Nakskov) --> Laland (or Nacascogh)
Nyborg --> Nyburg
Svendborg --> Schwineburg
Odense --> Othensuuigensem or Odansue, I'd definately go with the latter :D
Assens --> Asensz (or maybe just keep it Assens...)
Hjørring --> Heringa/Jhoringy, I'd stick with the latter as it's closer to 1337
Skagen --> Skaffuen
Thisted/Thy --> Tystath/Thiut
Aalborg --> Alaburg
Viborg --> Vvibiærgh (perhaps just go with Vibiærgh)
Randers --> Randeros/Randros (IDK, both feels way too Spanish)
Aarhus --> Aros/Arus
Holstebro --> Holstatbro
Ringkøbing --> Rennumkøpingh
Varde --> Wartwik/Warwath/Warwith
Kolding --> Kaldyng
Ribe --> Ripa
Haderslev --> Hathærslefheret/Hatherslef, latter probably works best

I skipped a few of the locations other have problematized, and some that has been suggested new names for already.


Source:

lex.dk (very useful source for surface level things like short etymological explanations and brief historical overviews. It's the official Danish encyclopedia, just search for the contemporary location names on the site.)

I think your localisations makes a lot of sense, but the central jutland borders still bothered me, so here is a alternative version. where the Vestjylland + Østjylland borders makes more sense.
Kolding, Varde and Vejle are awkward because they don't really belong in vest or østjylland (IMO) so I made them their own province, hence I thought it would be best to split Kolding into two localisations. But they cannot be attached to Nord slesvig either. I think a Himmerland situation would work. So something like Jelling, named after Jellingsyssel like Himmerland is named after the Himmersyssel.

I also took the opportunity to replace the names with older ones. As suggested (mostly) by @Danskjävel
View attachment 1166238

My suggestions
Vendsyssel-Thy:
Tystath
: Farmland + Wheat.
Jhoringy: Grassland + Fish
Sæby: (Sæby during this period is the more important town, and defacto købsted.) Grassland + Fish or Salt

Vestjylland:
Holstatbro
: I changed Lemvig to Holstebro, due to it being located more there than in your other localisation. Grassland + Livestock
Gøldorp: this area didn't get a town before Herning in the 19th century. There could be an argument to just merge it with Holstatbro but I think it makes sense to have it separate this is likely Denmarks least populated localization. grassland + wool / livestock
Rennumkøpingh: Grassland + livestock.

Himmerland:
Aars:
Grassland + Fish, (might be worth naming it after Løgstør? which seems to have been more important.)
Alaburg: Grassland + Fish / Wheat
Vibiærgh: Farmland + Wheat
Randeros: Farmland + Horses
Skyuæ: Farmland + Wheat

Østjylland:
Æpplætoftæ:
grassland + Lumber / Fish
Arus: Farmland + legumes.
Horsnæs: Farmland + Horses

Jelling:
Wæthle:
Farmland + Livestock
Kaldyng: Farmland + Salt
Warwith: Grassland + Fish

Nordslesvig:
Hatherslef:
Grassland + Horses
Obenroe: Farmland + Legumes / Wheat
Tunder: marsh + fish
Ripa: Grassland + livestock

Sydslesvig:
Huzum:
marsh + livestock.
Flensaburgh: grasland + legumes
Slesvig: grassland + clay
Ekerenvordhe: grassland + legumes

Funen:
Asenz:
Farmland + Fish
Odansue: Farmland + Wheat
Swineburgh: Farmland + Livestock

Nordsjælland:
Kalundæburgh:
farmland + medicaments
Roschilde: farmland + wheat
Hælsingør: woods + fish
Hafn: farmland + fish / wheat

Sydsjælland:
Slauløsæ:
farmland + wheat
Worhtingburg: farmland + fish / wheat
Nacascogh: farmland + legumes/wheat (whichever is the most valuable)
Nykoping: Farmland + legumes / wheat (which ever is the most valuable)
I gotta say, I really don't like the thought of seeing these spellings in game; they are too old.
I really like being able to recognize places from real life historical games and vice versa. Using these pre 1337 names just shatters that. Like yes, I know the Danish ones, but if other regions follow the same logic that would be sad as hell.

Plus, the thought of these spellings sticking around through the reformation and into the 1700s feels off too.
 
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I gotta say, I really don't like the thought of seeing these spellings in game; they are too old.
I really like being able to recognize places from real life historical games and vice versa. Using these pre 1337 names just shatters that. Like yes, I know the Danish ones, but if other regions follow the same logic that would be sad as hell.

Plus, the thought of these spellings sticking around through the reformation and into the 1700s feels off too.
You raise a very good point, but the devs haven't made an unambiguous decision about this. Ideally there should be dynamic province names that change name not only with different ownership, but also different times. At the very least, this should be possible to mod in (without a potential Ironman mode being disabled!)
 
I can read every single word of this as an Icelander, so no need to guess here. This is a blatantly Norse text. The other text is a little more difficult, but definitely not closer to modern Swedish than Norse, I think.

Having a Niðarós, Björgvin, Stafangur, Kaupmannahöfn, etc. on the map would definitely be really cool. If Paradox prefers these old names, you can almost merge them with Iceland's naming localisation in Scandinavia, small orthographic tweaks aside.
At least from a Swedish perspective, the language in the Eric Chronicles is only a small step away the modern version of Swedish we know today, while the Swedish that preceeds it is is almost unintelligible.
 
I like this too!. Merging Vejle and Kolding was the last thing i did, so i am fine with splitting them up again. The reason i did the weird borders around Holsterbro, is due to there just being nothing in your Gøldorp location, but i like both ways tbh. I though Lemvig made for a better location than Gøldorp, but yeah, it makes Holsterbro weird.

Kolding, Varde, and Vejle were merged into East and West jutland to reduce the number of 3-location provinces, not because i thought it reflected the Sysler well.

I guess Johan said that they prefer older names for the locations. I disagree, as all the names changed so much during the 500 years the game spans, but i am not one to make that call. Also, the rest of the game is in modern English, so i think the place names should reflect modern spelling, at least where the spelling didn't change for reasons other that natural language change.

Also cannot find evidence of Løgster being a thing in 1337, which is why i chose Aars. I also debated Sæby vs. Skagen, but Skagen became a Købstad in 1413, while Sæby didn't become one until 1524. It is a situation similar to Djursland, where Grenaa was more important, but in 1337, Ebeltoft were the more important town. I wonder how they will handle these cases.
I wonder if some of this could be avoided by going away from West and East Jutland as provinces and looking to the syssler instead, as far as I am aware west and east Jutland are much more modern concepts.
I gotta say, I really don't like the thought of seeing these spellings in game; they are too old.
I really like being able to recognize places from real life historical games and vice versa. Using these pre 1337 names just shatters that. Like yes, I know the Danish ones, but if other regions follow the same logic that would be sad as hell.

Plus, the thought of these spellings sticking around through the reformation and into the 1700s feels off too.
for me, its a bit... yes they are strange but it makes sense to use older ones. Because if you use more modern spelling do you use the modern town in the area too? eg Herning which first became a thing in the 1800 hundred.
 
Something interesting I found on the finnish wikipedia, which might be supported by better sources: apparently in 1337 there was a peasant uprising in Kexholm against Narimantas’ rule (the ruler of Oreshek in-game), which was supported by Sweden. The peasants were angered by Narimantas’ high taxes.


Would be cool to represent this in-game.
 
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There is an argument to make Varberg produce Stone instead of fish. While it wasn't until the 1800 that stone started to be exported due to costs of transport. One of the main reasons for Varbergs fortress being where it is and being relatively large is due to the stone quarries in the town.
I don't know if stone even where a resource traded in this period because i have often heard anecdotes that castles and fortresses where built where the were largely due to stone being nearby. (this is not a argument to remove stone as a resource)
 
Also this tinto maps should’ve been called ”Nordics”, not Scandinavia! Finland is not never has been and never will be Scandinavia.
Norrland (including the Kola Peninsula) should be part of Scandinavia, but Österland should be part of the Baltic region (along with Ingria and maybe Karelia, though the latter can maybe be geographically grouped with Russia). It was very common to group Finland as one of the Baltic countries during the Interwar era.
Glad this is no longer the case, I like the Huey-Dewey-Louie thing they've got going on.

Is there a reason why the Gutnish are there own culture on Gotland but the Geatish are not in southern Sweden? One can argue that the Geats did not see themselves as Swedes yet by 1337
Gutnish is in its own branch of Nordic separate from the East (Swedish, Danish) and West (Norwegian, Faroese and Icelandic) Nordic languages.
I'm not too opposed to them making separate Geatish and Scanian cultures though. I think Geats and Swedes only started seeing themselves as one nation around the time of the Kalmar Union.

The names are quite old, but the language should still be norse in 1337.
The different Nordic languages languages had definitely already diverged by this point. While they were probably more similar than they are now, especially spelling-wise, modern spellings are defaulted on I think. Makes sense, it's difficult to model language evolution, besides, many languages were only standardized recently.

This talk has me curious about what the spelling they decided to go for with Norwegian was, I assume Bokmål, since it's more "historical", but I haven't trained my eyes to discern between the two standards.

This is because the tribes have kind of a "hierarchy" of representation, if I'm saying that correctly.

There's three or two "main tribes": these are Finns, Tavastians and Karelians, or just Tavastians and Karelians (who are today commonly referred to as "Western Finns" (länsisuomalaiset) and "Eastern Finns" (itäsuomalaiset)).

Finns and Ostrobothnians can kinda be viewed as subgroups of Tavastians, whereas Savonians are a subgroup of Karelians. Savonians are ethnically a mix between Karelians and Tavastians, with a little bit of Laplander blood in there too.
I see, Kvens and Savonians being represented makes sense then.
Re.: your other post Sámi shouldn't live in the southern bits of the Kola Peninsula I don't think, they don't seem to have ever settled there. By contrast the interior of Sweden and Finland should have some Sámi pops, albeit maybe they do and are just too small to represent.

Map of the (modern) distribution of Sámi languages.


Speaking of the Kola Peninsula, walrus hunting should be depicted by having ivory as a trade good in at least one location, I reckon. I assume seals are represented by the "wild game" good already.

Map of the (modern) distribution of walruses around the Arctic Circle.
 
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While it makes sense for modern Sweden and Finland to call their area of Lapland just Lapland (Lappland/Lappi) it doesn't make much sense to do this during this time period. The whole region is called Lappland/Lappi and before Sweden lost Finland, the combined Swedish and Finnish Laplands were a single county, just called Lappland/Lappi. I think it would make the most sense to keep the directional names and not call a single one just "Lappland/Lappi" as if the others don't exist or are less part of Lapland.
I was thinking of scenario similar to historical post-1809 situation, with Finland and Sweden separated and Eastern Lappland being dynamically named with a Finnish name. Now that I think it further, having dynamic Finnish name of just "Lappi" would no longer make sense if other Lappland provinces were also owned by the same country (for example, Russia extending the Grand Duchy further west). So yeah, guess you're right and it is indeed best to keep Eastern Lappland as Itä-Lappi even if dynamically named in Finnish.
 
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The location names in Nyland should be changed. I understand that because of space constraints you can't fit all of them but there is no reason for the usage of the modern finnish names of the then swedish locations. Porvoo should be Borgå and Kotka should be Veckelax. Otherwise a great looking map keep it up.
 
I gotta say, I really don't like the thought of seeing these spellings in game; they are too old.
I really like being able to recognize places from real life historical games and vice versa. Using these pre 1337 names just shatters that. Like yes, I know the Danish ones, but if other regions follow the same logic that would be sad as hell.

Plus, the thought of these spellings sticking around through the reformation and into the 1700s feels off too.
Fair enough, I get your reasoning.

But I feel the opposite, I think having modern names in 1337 is immersion breaking. The olden names are fitting for the time period, and most of them are from sources dated around 1200-1350. These spellings makes sense well into the 1700's for most parts. And let's be real, it's likely only a small amount of the total game time in PC that will be from 1700-18XX. I'm assuming lategame will be a lot more interesting (and hopefully less laggy), but we're still going to see less play time for each passing year.

Yes there are spellings that feels a little too ancient (and Spanish, looking at you Randros). Like Othensuuigensem. Luckily we can fairly easily find slightly newer spellings, like Odansue. Dynamic historical names would be immensely cool, but probably too much to hope for :p

Of course for the sake of consistency, modern names are probably a lot easier to work with. I think this is a very fair argument, for the sake of development effeciency. But having 150 years of bygone location names, in the end of the game where probably only a small minority of people will actually play is not a strong argument when the alternative is 400 years of modern names making no sense (except for the easy implementation naturally).

I totally understand where you're coming from, but I think the old names look so cool - and makes a lot more sense for the majority of the time period we're actually going to play.


@Bastiram great post and I agree wholly except for the omission of Ringsted, which is the most important city on Sjælland in the Danish middle ages. The Landsting was held there for several hundred years, monarch crownings and celebrations, and two of the most important Danish kings are burried in Sct. Bendt's Church. It was even the destination of pilgrimage because of the beatification of Knud Lavard (and Danish saints was, and are, a rarity to say the least).

Ringsted gotta stay :D

Also if we go with the old spellings, we probably should choose to use either burg or burgh. I don't think there's any harm done in chosing either one of them, and just conforming other spellings to that one. Same goes for stade, stat and stath as well as koping and køping. I don't really have an opinion on the matter, but I think køping looks more distinctively Nordic (sorry weird German 'ø' used in Sweden).

Brief overview of the history of the Danish language for anyone interested (gotta love lex.dk):
 
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Wonderful. Inland Norway is quite similar to what I proposed myself. The names are great too. You're selling the valleys and mountains well here, this would be an interesting place to fight and build infrastructure in :D

The route across Sognefjellet should be added IMO, but other than that I'm not a fan but rather a whole air conditioner.

Edit: The reduced province density may also allow them to merge Oppland and Hedmark into Opplandene or Opplanda, which would be more historically accurate.
Thanks!

When thinking about these mountain routes I was thinking hard about what would become the default route. Oslo-Bergen is easiest and fastest by ship along the coast. While if you are in Hallingdal it would be way easier and faster to cross the mountain pass.

Were all these mountain routes used extensively?

Even now with modern technology the Sognefjell-route is closed for over half the year. It's certainly possible to walk there, as I have walked quite a bit of it myself a few summers ago, but could you bring a army? For sure it would at least be impossible to bring artillery. And would it be reasonable to do so if you had an alternative? Weather can be extremely harsh there. In the timeframe it's only a path... At least on the Lærdal route, they built a wagon road in the middle of the time period. ;)

The route between Aurland and Voss was mentioned. It's certainly passable and was used, but any large transport or trade would go by boat from Aurland to Bergen. Though, without having studied the subject, I imagine it being the prefered route if going only from Sogn to Voss.

There was even a route, walking 3 days over the Josterdal glacier, between Sogn and Nordfjord. Apparently sometimes used in the 1800s for wedding-travel. But I can imagine it being really dangerous and only possible in the nicest of summer weather.
 
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It will be tweaked..
The fact of the matter is, Finland had an incredibly high Swedish minority since the Finns didn't have a permanent population until relatively recently for 1337. The Finns were simply not that many while the Swedes had an over population problem up until the start date. This process of Swedes coming over worked because the land at the coast was widely open in Finland. Herman Lindqvist argues that were it not for the black plague, then Swedes would have moved in (perhaps even supplanted Finnish) inland also.

But with the black plague, the process would start to slowly revert. On one point for example: "Det är inte ovanligt med historier om finsk invandring i gamla svenskbygder till följd av stor dödlighet bland svenskarna." Dick Harrison (Stora Döden, 2000)
 
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Fair enough, I get your reasoning.

But I feel the opposite, I think having modern names in 1337 is immersion breaking. The olden names are fitting for the time period, and most of them are from sources dated around 1200-1350. These spellings makes sense well into the 1700's for most parts. And let's be real, it's likely only a small amount of the total game time in PC that will be from 1700-18XX. I'm assuming lategame will be a lot more interesting (and hopefully less laggy), but we're still going to see less play time for each passing year.

Yes there are spellings that feels a little too ancient (and Spanish, looking at you Randros). Like Othensuuigensem. Luckily we can fairly easily find slightly newer spellings, like Odansue. Dynamic historical names would be immensely cool, but probably too much to hope for :p

Of course for the sake of consistency, modern names are probably a lot easier to work with. I think this is a very fair argument, for the sake of development effeciency. But having 150 years of bygone location names, in the end of the game where probably only a small minority of people will actually play is not a strong argument when the alternative is 400 years of modern names making no sense (except for the easy implementation naturally).

I totally understand where you're coming from, but I think the old names look so cool - and makes a lot more sense for the majority of the time period we're actually going to play.


@Bastiram great post and I agree wholly except for the omission of Ringsted, which is the most important city on Sjælland in the Danish middle ages. The Landsting was held there for several hundred years, monarch crownings and celebrations, and two of the most important Danish kings are burried in Sct. Bendt's Church. It was even the destination of pilgrimage because of the beatification of Knud Lavard (and Danish saints was, and are, a rarity to say the least).

Ringsted gotta stay :D

Also if we go with the old spellings, we probably should choose to use either burg or burgh. I don't think there's any harm done in chosing either one of them, and just conforming other spellings to that one. Same goes for stade, stat and stath as well as koping and køping. I don't really have an opinion on the matter, but I think køping looks more distinctively Nordic (sorry weird German 'ø' used in Sweden).

Brief overview of the history of the Danish language for anyone interested (gotta love lex.dk):
I completely forgot about Ringsted, I do agree that it should be represented. The awkward part is that it would kinda need to be a new localization. Slagelse is described as wealthy with a large and prosperous hinterland, so I would not get rid of that. Slagelse also had a royal mint just like Ringsted! We also don't have Næstved (part of Vordingborg) which is also described as wealthy and prosperous during this period. Vordingborg on the other hand seems to have been lacking a prosperous or sizable hinterland and relied on fishing which went away in the 1600's, but it has a lot of royal significance. So does Kalundborg. Holbæk unironically is under Valdemar Atterdag about to gain prominence and flourish with a wealthy hinterland too! Køge already is a købstad but first gained prominence in the 1500 and 1600 hundreds with large grain markets...

So yea.... I could come up with another 3-4 localisations for Sjælland xD
 
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