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Tinto Maps #12 - 26th of July 2024 - Germany

Hello, and welcome to another new Tinto Maps! I’m back to duty, after the review of Italy that we posted last Thursday, and Johan taking care of Scandinavia last Friday. Today we will be taking a look at Germany! This region comprises the modern territories of Czechia, Austria, Switzerland, and Liechtenstein. However, for most of the timeline in Project Caesar, it was better known as the Holy Roman Empire. This organization once was a feudal empire elevated from the Kingdom of the Germans, but by 1337 was mostly disaggregated into a multitude of temporal and ecclesiastical jurisdictions, with only a tenuous feudal relationship with their Emperor.

Let’s start diving deep into this nightmare, then…

Countries:
Countries.png

I’m showing here a bit more of what the region is, so you can have a clear depiction of how it looks compared to the neighboring regions we’ve previously shown (and so that the Reddit guy who is patchworking the world map has an easier day ). What I can say about this when the map speaks for itself… The lands of Germany are highly fractured among different principalities, making for an extremely complex political situation. The Emperor in 1337 was Louis IV von Wittelsbach of Upper Bavaria… Because, yes, Bavaria is also divided. He is married to Margaret of Avesnes, daughter of Count William of Hainaut, Holland, and Zeleand, while his son Louis is the Margrave of Brandenburg. But probably the strongest power of the period is the Kingdom of Bohemia, whose king John also Duke Luxembourg and rules over both lands in a personal union, while also being overlord of the Margraviate of Moravia, ruler by his son Charles, and the Silesian principalities. The third contender probably is the Duchy of Austria, ruled by Albert II von Habsburg. He also rules over some lands in the formed Duchies of Swabia and Carinthia. There are also plenty of medium and small countries all over the region, with very different forms of government, which will probably make this HRE a very replayable experience…

Dynasties:
Dynasties.png

The dynastical map of the HRE gives a nice picture of the situation explained in the previous one. The von Wittelsbach, de Luxembourg (John of Bohemia is considered of French culture, therefore it uses the French toponymic article ‘de’; if he would change to the German culture, then it would be the ‘von Luxembourg’ dynasty), and von Habsburg cover much of the map; you may note that the Wittelsbach rule over five different countries (Upper Bavaria, Lower Bavaria, the Palatinate of the Rhine, and Brandenburg); while the House of Luxembourg also control the Archbishopric of Trier through Balduin, uncle of King John. Other important dynasties, although in a secondary position, are the Welfen, von Mecklenburg, and Gryf, present in multiple countries to the north; the Askanier, who happen to control half of Upper Saxony, while the rest is in the hands of the von Wettin; and the von Görz, who rule over the Duchy of Tirol and the County of Gorizia.

HRE:
HRE.png

We obviously have to repost the HRE IO map again here. The purple stripes mark the imperial territory, while the different types of members use different colors. We currently have these divisions in the IO: the Emperor (1, dark blue), Prince-Electors (4, light blue), Archbishop-Electors (3, medium blue), Free Imperial Cities (23, light green), Imperial Peasant Republics (2, orange), Imperial Prelates (44, white), and Regular Members (280, dark green). So, yeah, that make for a total of 357 countries that are part of the HRE. And before you ask: No, we won’t talk about its mechanics today, that will happen in future Tinto Talks.

Locations:
Locations.png

Locations 2.png

Locations 3.png

Locations 4.png

Locations 5.png
Germany has the highest density of locations in the world, as we wanted to portray the historical fragmentation of the HRE at the most detailed level of any Paradox GSG. There are a couple of things that we are aware of and we want to rework: the location connections (as in some places they are not obvious at all, and we want to make warfare in the HRE not impossible); and the transition between the German locations and those at their east, making it smoother (something that we will be doing in the review of Poland, Hungary and this region [e.g. for Bohemia]). A final comment: if you click on the spoiler button, you may be able to see 4 more detailed maps of the region.

Provinces:
Provinces.png

Map of provinces. As usual, suggestions are welcomed.

Areas:
Areas.png

Areas. We are currently not happy with the area borders (or at least, one of our German content designers isn't, and let me note it while preparing the DD... ;) ), as they reflect more modern areas so we will be looking into an alternative setup for them with your feedback. They also currently use their German names, which will change to English ones to be in line with other areas, as usual.

Terrain:
Climate.png

Topography.png

Vegetation.png

Terrain mapmodes. The region is quite forested, in comparison to other parts of Europe.

Culture:
Cultures.png

Let’s open the Pandora box and take a look at the cultures! The German cultures have come through a couple of reworks, until we’ve found a spot in which we’re kind of happy (or, at least, our German content designers do not complain!). The German cultures are very linguistically related, as we thought that it would be the best starting point for 1337. Please let us know about your thoughts on them.

Religion:
Religion.png

Boring religion map this week, as the region is overwhelmingly Catholic. There are Ashkenazi Jews in a bunch of places (a quick account: they’re present in 204 locations all over Central and Eastern Europe), and you may also see the Waldesians we added in the review of Italy last week.

Raw Materials:
Raw materials.png

Raw materials! Plenty of!

Markets:
Markets.png

The main market centers of the region are Cologne, Lúbeck, and Prague. We have reviewed them a couple of times, and this is the configuration that makes for a good setup historical and gameplay-wise. And you may also see Bruges, which has been reinstated as the main market of the Low Countries, after some tweaks.

Country and Location Population:
Population.png

Population 2.png

Population 3.png

Populations 4.png
The population of the HRE is… Fragmented. In that regard, Bohemia starts in a very strong position, with a strong competitor to its south (Austria) and north (Brandenburg).

And that’s it for today! I hope that we didn’t drive you into madness with this map… Next week we will take to a very different region, the Maghreb! See you then!
 
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Hmmm, so I've seen this several times (Notably the Croatian Coast and the Aegean)

Can we assume that "Strait Crossings" aren't a thing?
or is it just the names not counting that as connected land
We have a task to review a bunch of straits crossing, as we made some of the regions before we had the functionality available.
 
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I've got a small piece of feedback regarding Switzerland. On the map, the tag between Uri, Schwyz, Lucerne and Bern is labeled as "Obw.", for "Obwalden". However, IRL the area was known as "Unterwalden", and it consisted of Obwalden (from "Unterwalden ob dem Wald", Unterwalden above the forest) and Nidwalden (from "Unterwalden nid dem Wald", Unterwalden below the forest). IMO it would be better to call the tag there Unterwalden, especially since the distinction between its two constituents is kind of fuzzy in early Swiss history: The founding members of the Swiss Confederacy are generally known as "Uri, Schwyz und Unterwalden". Obwalden and Nidwalden as separate political entities developed during the 14th and 15th centuries, but they were always closely connected and never had separate seats in the Confederacy. It seems rather arbitrary to me to give all the land there to one of the two halves, instead of just having the tag represent both of them.

I can't post links to sources, but the wikipedia article on Unterwalden is a good start, as is the article in the Swiss Historical Encyclopedia.
 
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Hello, and welcome to another new Tinto Maps! I’m back to duty, after the review of Italy that we posted last Thursday, and Johan taking care of Scandinavia last Friday. Today we will be taking a look at Germany! This region comprises the modern territories of Czechia, Austria, Switzerland, and Liechtenstein. However, for most of the timeline in Project Caesar, it was better known as the Holy Roman Empire. This organization once was a feudal empire elevated from the Kingdom of the Germans, but by 1337 was mostly disaggregated into a multitude of temporal and ecclesiastical jurisdictions, with only a tenuous feudal relationship with their Emperor.

Let’s start diving deep into this nightmare, then…

Countries:
View attachment 1167612
I’m showing here a bit more of what the region is, so you can have a clear depiction of how it looks compared to the neighboring regions we’ve previously shown (and so that the Reddit guy who is patchworking the world map has an easier day ). What I can say about this when the map speaks for itself… The lands of Germany are highly fractured among different principalities, making for an extremely complex political situation. The Emperor in 1337 was Louis IV von Wittelsbach of Upper Bavaria… Because, yes, Bavaria is also divided. He is married to Margaret of Avesnes, daughter of Count William of Hainaut, Holland, and Zelland, while his son Louis is the Margrave of Brandenburg. But probably the strongest power of the period is the Kingdom of Bohemia, whose king John also Duke Luxembourg and rules over both lands in a personal union, while also being overlord of the Margraviate of Moravia, ruler by his son Charles, and the Silesian principalities. The third contender probably is the Duchy of Austria, ruled by Albert II von Habsburg. He also rules over some lands in the formed Duchies of Swabia and Carinthia. There are also plenty of medium and small countries all over the region, with very different forms of government, which will probably make this HRE a very replayable experience…

Dynasties:
View attachment 1167613
The dynastical map of the HRE gives a nice picture of the situation explained in the previous one. The von Wittelsbach, de Luxembourg (John of Bohemia is considered of French culture, therefore it uses the French toponymic article ‘de’; if he would change to the German culture, then it would be the ‘von Luxembourg’ dynasty), and von Habsburg cover much of the map; you may note that the Wittelsbach rule over five different countries (Upper Bavaria, Lower Bavaria, the Palatinate of the Rhine, and Brandenburg); while the House of Luxembourg also control the Archbishopric of Trier through Balduin, uncle of King John. Other important dynasties, although in a secondary position, are the Welfen, von Mecklenburg, and Gryf, present in multiple countries to the north; the Askanier, who happen to control half of Upper Saxony, while the rest is in the hands of the von Wettin; and the von Görz, who rule over the Duchy of Tirol and the County of Gorizia.

HRE:
View attachment 1167615
We obviously have to repost the HRE IO map again here. The purple stripes mark the imperial territory, while the different types of members use different colors. We currently have these divisions in the IO: the Emperor (1, dark blue), Prince-Electors (4, light blue), Archbishop-Electors (3, medium blue), Free Imperial Cities (23, light green), Imperial Peasant Republics (2, orange), Imperial Prelates (44, white), and Regular Members (280, dark green). So, yeah, that make for a total of 357 countries that are part of the HRE. And before you ask: No, we won’t talk about its mechanics today, that will happen in future Tinto Talks.

Locations:
View attachment 1167616
Germany has the highest density of locations in the world, as we wanted to portray the historical fragmentation of the HRE at the most detailed level of any Paradox GSG. There are a couple of things that we are aware of and we want to rework: the location connections (as in some places they are not obvious at all, and we want to make warfare in the HRE not impossible); and the transition between the German locations and those at their east, making it smoother (something that we will be doing in the review of Poland, Hungary and this region [e.g. for Bohemia]). A final comment: if you click on the spoiler button, you may be able to see 4 more detailed maps of the region.

Provinces:
View attachment 1167621
Map of provinces. As usual, suggestions are welcomed.

Areas:
View attachment 1167622
Areas. We are currently not happy with the area borders (or at least, one of our German content designers isn't, and let me note it while preparing the DD... ;) ), as they reflect more modern areas so we will be looking into an alternative setup for them with your feedback. They also currently use their German names, which will change to English ones to be in line with other areas, as usual.

Terrain:
View attachment 1167623
View attachment 1167624
View attachment 1167625
Terrain mapmodes. The region is quite forested, in comparison to other parts of Europe.

Culture:
View attachment 1167626
Let’s open the Pandora box and take a look at the cultures! The German cultures have come through a couple of reworks, until we’ve found a spot in which we’re kind of happy (or, at least, our German content designers do not complain!). The German cultures are very linguistically related, as we thought that it would be the best starting point for 1337. Please let us know about your thoughts on them.

Religion:
View attachment 1167629
Boring religion map this week, as the region is overwhelmingly Catholic. There are Ashkenazi Jews in a bunch of places (a quick account: they’re present in 204 locations all over Central and Eastern Europe), and you may also see the Waldesians we added in the review of Italy last week.

Raw Materials:
View attachment 1167630
Raw materials! Plenty of!

Markets:
View attachment 1167632
The main market centers of the region are Cologne, Lúbeck, and Prague. We have reviewed them a couple of times, and this is the configuration that makes for a good setup historical and gameplay-wise. And you may also see Bruges, which has been reinstated as the main market of the Low Countries, after some tweaks.

Country and Location Population:
View attachment 1167633
The population of the HRE is… Fragmented. In that regard, Bohemia starts in a very strong position, with a strong competitor to its south (Austria) and north (Brandenburg).

And that’s it for today! I hope that we didn’t drive you into madness with this map… Next week we will take to a very different region, the Maghreb! See you then!

I think those two regions are way to big and modern
1722002908485.png


Nordrhine can be split from Westfalen (Westpfalen is an incorrect spelling). And Eastpfalen can be added like this

1722003189251.png
 
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What holding Hohenzollerns start with (I couldn't spot them) and will there be event for them to rise and get Brandenburg and other pockets they took (Like ones in Rhein and East Frisia)
 
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Very nice:D

I'm assuming the market borders will change significantly upon the promised major-river review?

Also slightly disappointed that none of the Wadden islands qualified to be its own location :p
Not necessarily, @Johan could go today and code completely different market access values for the existing rivers. But we want to do the river rework first, so we don't have to make more balance passes than those needed after that's completed.
 
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Absolutely stunning, I feel like the first few times I boot up this game as any country, I'll spend more time exploring the map than actually playing.
 
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Its nice to see the town I am from on this map.
Can you create new nations like the custom nations or the release nation mechanics in EU4?
Because I would like to try to make my hometown the center of the world.
 
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Hello, and welcome to another new Tinto Maps! I’m back to duty, after the review of Italy that we posted last Thursday, and Johan taking care of Scandinavia last Friday. Today we will be taking a look at Germany! This region comprises the modern territories of Czechia, Austria, Switzerland, and Liechtenstein. However, for most of the timeline in Project Caesar, it was better known as the Holy Roman Empire. This organization once was a feudal empire elevated from the Kingdom of the Germans, but by 1337 was mostly disaggregated into a multitude of temporal and ecclesiastical jurisdictions, with only a tenuous feudal relationship with their Emperor.

Let’s start diving deep into this nightmare, then…

Countries:
View attachment 1167612
I’m showing here a bit more of what the region is, so you can have a clear depiction of how it looks compared to the neighboring regions we’ve previously shown (and so that the Reddit guy who is patchworking the world map has an easier day ). What I can say about this when the map speaks for itself… The lands of Germany are highly fractured among different principalities, making for an extremely complex political situation. The Emperor in 1337 was Louis IV von Wittelsbach of Upper Bavaria… Because, yes, Bavaria is also divided. He is married to Margaret of Avesnes, daughter of Count William of Hainaut, Holland, and Zelland, while his son Louis is the Margrave of Brandenburg. But probably the strongest power of the period is the Kingdom of Bohemia, whose king John also Duke Luxembourg and rules over both lands in a personal union, while also being overlord of the Margraviate of Moravia, ruler by his son Charles, and the Silesian principalities. The third contender probably is the Duchy of Austria, ruled by Albert II von Habsburg. He also rules over some lands in the formed Duchies of Swabia and Carinthia. There are also plenty of medium and small countries all over the region, with very different forms of government, which will probably make this HRE a very replayable experience…

Dynasties:
View attachment 1167613
The dynastical map of the HRE gives a nice picture of the situation explained in the previous one. The von Wittelsbach, de Luxembourg (John of Bohemia is considered of French culture, therefore it uses the French toponymic article ‘de’; if he would change to the German culture, then it would be the ‘von Luxembourg’ dynasty), and von Habsburg cover much of the map; you may note that the Wittelsbach rule over five different countries (Upper Bavaria, Lower Bavaria, the Palatinate of the Rhine, and Brandenburg); while the House of Luxembourg also control the Archbishopric of Trier through Balduin, uncle of King John. Other important dynasties, although in a secondary position, are the Welfen, von Mecklenburg, and Gryf, present in multiple countries to the north; the Askanier, who happen to control half of Upper Saxony, while the rest is in the hands of the von Wettin; and the von Görz, who rule over the Duchy of Tirol and the County of Gorizia.

HRE:
View attachment 1167615
We obviously have to repost the HRE IO map again here. The purple stripes mark the imperial territory, while the different types of members use different colors. We currently have these divisions in the IO: the Emperor (1, dark blue), Prince-Electors (4, light blue), Archbishop-Electors (3, medium blue), Free Imperial Cities (23, light green), Imperial Peasant Republics (2, orange), Imperial Prelates (44, white), and Regular Members (280, dark green). So, yeah, that make for a total of 357 countries that are part of the HRE. And before you ask: No, we won’t talk about its mechanics today, that will happen in future Tinto Talks.

Locations:
View attachment 1167616
Germany has the highest density of locations in the world, as we wanted to portray the historical fragmentation of the HRE at the most detailed level of any Paradox GSG. There are a couple of things that we are aware of and we want to rework: the location connections (as in some places they are not obvious at all, and we want to make warfare in the HRE not impossible); and the transition between the German locations and those at their east, making it smoother (something that we will be doing in the review of Poland, Hungary and this region [e.g. for Bohemia]). A final comment: if you click on the spoiler button, you may be able to see 4 more detailed maps of the region.

Provinces:
View attachment 1167621
Map of provinces. As usual, suggestions are welcomed.

Areas:
View attachment 1167622
Areas. We are currently not happy with the area borders (or at least, one of our German content designers isn't, and let me note it while preparing the DD... ;) ), as they reflect more modern areas so we will be looking into an alternative setup for them with your feedback. They also currently use their German names, which will change to English ones to be in line with other areas, as usual.

Terrain:
View attachment 1167623
View attachment 1167624
View attachment 1167625
Terrain mapmodes. The region is quite forested, in comparison to other parts of Europe.

Culture:
View attachment 1167626
Let’s open the Pandora box and take a look at the cultures! The German cultures have come through a couple of reworks, until we’ve found a spot in which we’re kind of happy (or, at least, our German content designers do not complain!). The German cultures are very linguistically related, as we thought that it would be the best starting point for 1337. Please let us know about your thoughts on them.

Religion:
View attachment 1167629
Boring religion map this week, as the region is overwhelmingly Catholic. There are Ashkenazi Jews in a bunch of places (a quick account: they’re present in 204 locations all over Central and Eastern Europe), and you may also see the Waldesians we added in the review of Italy last week.

Raw Materials:
View attachment 1167630
Raw materials! Plenty of!

Markets:
View attachment 1167632
The main market centers of the region are Cologne, Lúbeck, and Prague. We have reviewed them a couple of times, and this is the configuration that makes for a good setup historical and gameplay-wise. And you may also see Bruges, which has been reinstated as the main market of the Low Countries, after some tweaks.

Country and Location Population:
View attachment 1167633
The population of the HRE is… Fragmented. In that regard, Bohemia starts in a very strong position, with a strong competitor to its south (Austria) and north (Brandenburg).

And that’s it for today! I hope that we didn’t drive you into madness with this map… Next week we will take to a very different region, the Maghreb! See you then!
1722003401094.png

Why is it Thüring and not Thüringen?
 
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Hey there
I wanted to give my two cents about Switzerland. Overall, I find it really good and I am quite content. But still, here are my few points:
1. Lakes
There are many lakes in Switzerland, and I think two crucial ones that you have missed are Lake Lucerne (Viewaldstättersee) and Lake Zurich. The inclusion of the former would split the provinces of Sarnen and Schwyz, which in reality do not share a land border and should thus not by directly adjacent.
Lake Zurich also has had regional importance, and on it there even was some type of naval action (f.e. in the Old Zurich War). It splits the provinces of Frauenfeld and Zug (as well as Zug and St. Gallen), which I would consider very weird if they'd border each other. However, the connection between the provinces of St. Gallen and Schwyz should be preserved, as there was a bridge between the two sides at that location, and I has existed for thousands of years (the Holzbrücke Rapperswil-Hurden)
I do think that these two lakes are and were very important and ought to be included
2. The nation of Obwalden
The nation inbetween Uri, Schwyz, Lucerne and Bern is abbreviated to Obw. I assume this stands for Obwalden. This region is comprised of the two future half-cantons of Obwalden and Nidwalden. They are collectively known as Unterwalden and I recon in the game it should be referred to as Unterwalden as well.
3. The province in Switzerland: Schwyz and Bern
The province comprised of Altdorf, Schwyz, Sarnen and Glarus is called Schwyz. I personally don't really like this in particular. I alternatively propose the term Waldstätte, which is the old name of this region and the name that EU4 used.
For Bern: I am fine with the name as it is, but one could also use the term "Bernbiet" (coming from "Bern Gebiet", meaning the area of Bern)

Concerning the population numbers: I find it quite surprising that locations such as Glarus and Werdenberg have such high population counts. Especially since Glarus is supposed to have 75'000 inhabitants, while in todays day and age, it has 40'000.


These are my takes on Switzerland. The inaccuracies in the Ticino and the alps have been resolved after the Italy Map post, so overall I am pleased by the great work you put it!
 
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I am fairly certain that the border between Schleswig and Dithmarschen (Dit. for short in the picture below) be the river Eider. As it was first attested that the border between the Saxons and the Danes was the Eider river from centuries earlier (when the danish kingdom was starting to form).

IMG_20240726_165419.jpg


IMG_20240726_165513.jpg

IMG_20240726_163258.jpg


With this in mind I have split the Heide location in two, with the part north of the Eider river being named St. Peter Ording as the name of the village was first written down in 1373 (It is attested that it's previous name was Ulstrup but I couldn't find anything, so if anyone knows something more about this please notify me)

Original Heide location.
IMG_20240726_170426.png


It's reworked location
sketch-1722001540093.png


IMG_20240726_164335.jpg

IMG_20240726_164736.jpg


It is a fairly unchanged, border wise, to the present day district of Germany.
IMG_20240726_163308.jpg


For reference an (albeit much later date) map of Schleswig-Holstein, notice how Dithmarschen northern border is the Eider river.
ddk4ih9-414d6605-69d7-4e63-a2c7-a9f3415deb0f.png


That is it basically, I hope this will help for some more accurate borders!
 

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And to think that the first Tinto Maps comprised of just Low Countries. Was it a test run or only after posting it you realized that in such a speed it will take you ten years to go through the entire world map?

Also: do you have somewhere total population of HRE? At least approximate? I'm curious how it compares to other regions in Europe.
We wanted to start with a smaller region, so people could get used to the granularity of the map and the feedback workflow we wanted to implement, before going into wider regions.

I'd have to check in detail, but approximately 10-12M.
 
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The Opavsko province should be in the Silesia area.
Also, the Moravian culture is a bit iffy, since there's no Moravian language, just dialects. Moravia had been also ruled by the Bohemian rulers for hundreds of years at that point.
Moravia has rarely been controlled by the same person as Bohemia up to 1337, until 1182 it was divided between 'údělná knížata' and from 1182 it was held by the moravian margrave. All of them had their own agendas, distinct from those of the king in Prague.

As for the culture I do not think it is unfair. As Moravians were in the beginning a completely separate set of tribes from those of Bohemia, and 1337 barely stretches into the Ostsiedlung era, which was the first time the border area between Bohemia and Moravia was properly settled and proper cultural exchange began.
 
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noooo, don't remove locations from there, have mercy. wider Slovenia region is always crap in paradox games density wise (province density). don't make alpine regions suffer even more ;( keep the location density please :(

and Carinthia was important :c
We haven't removed any locations from there, we've just made them more clear to understand for the player. ;)
 
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So hyped to see that Brugge got its place as one of Europe's most important cities in 1337, thank you very much for making this work out. Have you considered implementing mechanics/events to represent the silting of the Zwin and the economic downfall of Brugge and its market that followed ?
 
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1722003586275.png

Why is the Krakow market "intruding" so much into Praha's?
(I am assuming that this shape is not considered OK, I am curious to understand what variables might cause this behaviour)
 
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Since we see Holland on this Tinto Map, may I respectfully submit historical modifications to Holland and Zeeland locations? I was very late to the game, but I did document all my suggestions last week in my post here. Thank you for your consideration.
We consider it reviewed, but I'll take a look, nonetheless.
 
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