Tinto Maps #12 - 26th of July 2024 - Germany

[Karl I]

Dividing Austria and Bavaria into a "Danube-Bavarian" and "Southern Bavarian" is, quite frankly, an ill thought decision. Ignoring all the glaring issues that come from using linguistics as a basis to depict cultures (that alone could be an entire thesis on its own), its just wrong to say there that an "Austro-Bavarian" culture even existed to begin with. Austria, or, to be more accurate, the lands that today are known as Austria, were always distinctly unique from the rest of Bavaria (and the vast majority of Germany for that matter) on a cultural basis. That was mainly because of 3 very simple factors:

A) Geography. Bavaria proper was divided from Austria by relatively rough terrain, making communication outside of the waterways practically impossible to begin with (that's why Bavaria never actually "annexed" the eastern marches, they couldn't even if they wanted).

B) the contact and mixing between the Germanic settlers and other peoples. In particular the Slavs (Carantians, Slovenes, Czechs and soo on), Magyars and Latin peoples. In fact, if you pay attention to Austria today, you can still see how those groups influenced parts of the country (with places like Tyrol being more influenced by the Latins, Upper Austria by the Czechs and Styria by the South Slavs).

C) The Germanic settlers that came to Austria were not all Bavarian. This can be observe in particular in how the average Austrian genetic code is "all over the place", being directly influence not just by Bavarians but other (mostly southern) Germanic groups and even the Franks (one cannot forget that Austria was birthed by the Karling Empire first and foremost).

*its also important to note that Austria proper went through quite a nasty time period between it's creation under the Karlings, the Germanic immigration to the region and the rise of the Habsburgs (who brought much needed stability to the region, somewhat). The region was first and foremost a frontier like area. Even during this time period, raids by Cumans were somewhat of an occurrence (albeit in far lesser degree than in the previous centuries). Nevertheless this climate of instability did not foster what you can call an "ideal environment for a complete demographic shift" to Bavarianism. As mentioned in point B, the reality of the matter was that the Germanic settlers and the local people developed a relationship of interdependence as a matter of survival. That fact alone shows us that, even if we assume that the lands that today are called Austria were Bavarian during its early days, such case quickly changed due to the unstable nature of the region during this time period, de facto paving the way for a very much distinct culture to emerge as a result

Even if we try to go through the linguistic argument, one can hardly point that Austro-Bavarian was prevalent among the modern day Austrian areas. Historical records are lacking in regards to the local folk (in fact, there's soo few things to go on with that most historical work about this subject was done a posteriori). As some people have mentioned in this thread previously, even official documents flip flop constantly in the way they name locations like Graz, which only indicates that the idea of a "homogenous" (or at least majority) cultural matrix directly related to Bavaria proper did not exist in the region.
Even if we accept the idea that an "Austrian culture" did not exist, its not debatable that what is modern day Austria did culture that can be objectively characterized as "being the same" as any other German culture of the time.

You are better off at splitting Bavarian from Austrian, and as someone else mentioned, you are far better at removing the whole "Danube-Bavarian" nonsense and adding a Tyrolean, Styrio-Carinthian (or something like that) and Austrian culture separated from Bavarians

 

[Bad german crusader]

Hi, first time poster, long time reader here.
I have some Feedback mostly in the Nordrhein-Westfalen-Region. (I know I am kinda late on the ride, but lets go anyway)
I would like to focus on some of the dynastic connections and highlight some interesting historical results, in Particular, I would like to focus on the Countries of Jülich, Kleve, Berg (which would all become Dukedoms in the next 90 years) as well as Mark and Ravensberg (which stayed as Counties).

Within the next few years, multiple of these countries would fall into personal Unions (colored accordingly above), which would eventually all unite under the “United Duchies”, whose amazing COA shows the symbols of their individual parts, and which ruled a large part of the Westphalia/Rhine Regions. The United Duchies even attempted to press claims to the Duchy of Gelre, which it contested against various claimants as well as the emperor.

After the Ducal Line died out, its Lands would be contested by multiple Inheritors, leading to a long-lasting conflict alongside the 30 Years war. In the End, the Lands were split, with Kleve, Mark and Ravensberg going to Brandenburg (making the first foothold in Prussian westward expansion) and Jülich and Berg going to Pfalz.

Ravensberg (my home Region):
Geography:
Geographically the OPM Ravensberg is represented really well. I doubt there is a need to do so since the province density is already good, but a possible (again, not needed!) split would be into Bielefeld and Herford, roughly an east-west-split.

Of note: I would like to highlight two Feedback Posts for the locations adjacent to Bielefeld
Feedback for Minden: https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...ly-2024-germany.1696699/page-22#post-29792744
Feedback for the Weserbergland in general: https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...ly-2024-germany.1696699/page-23#post-29793149

Dynastically:
The County of Ravensberg in 1337 is ruled by Count Bernhard I of Ravensberg, who is at 61+ Years old. Bernhard was originally a member of the church, and never married. His designated Hier is his Niece Margarete (daughter of the previous Count), who will marry Gerhard the eldest son of the Count of Jülich in 1338. After Bernhard died in 1346, Gerhard ruled Ravensberg as its Count.
It would be great if Bernhards unwillingness to marry would be represented via some sort of Ruler trait. Maybe something akin to “Celibate”? I am not sure how the trait system in this game will work exactly, and which traits have already been confirmed. I am sure there are other People in the game, where this trait would be useful.

Since Inheritance in PC is not scripted, Margarete should naturally inherit the title, it would be interesting to somehow represent the fact that her husband was the “actual” Ruler via an Event. Maybe there should also be an Event for specifically her marriage to Gerhard to happen in the first place, since this was quite the important step in the history of this region. A less ideal solution would be to have them (anachronistically) already married at game start.

Berg:
Geography:
While I was writing something up I saw there was already a load of great Feedback in the thread, which I wholeheartedly agree with. One I would note for extremely high quality is:
https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...ly-2024-germany.1696699/page-35#post-29795556
It even features a placement of Duisburg, which was recently acquired by Berg.

One small detail, the County of Arenberg (sometimes Aremberg), which had historical Importance despite its small size. It was ruled by a Branch of House von der Mark, it even lead to a French Cadet branch known as “de la Marck”.
This Post: (https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...ly-2024-germany.1696699/page-34#post-29795293) has a suggestion for its placement, and (for terms of historical noteworthiness) it could be considered to include it, although I feel like the size is a bit over exaggerated, see https://www.arenbergfoundation.eu/de/arenberg-vor-1918 which has some high-detail maps of the (later) duchy.

Dynastically:
The County of Berg is ruled by Count Adolf VI of Berg. On the “Dynasty”-Mapmode the ruler of Berg appears to be a member of House “von Nassau”. This is clearly false; Berg was at the time ruled by a side branch of the (now Limburg-less) House Limburg (Fun-Fact: apparently the House of Luxembourg is also a Cadet Branch of the Limburgs. Though I think its fine to show them as separate Dynasties, since the Split happened quite a few generations ago).
His Marriage to Agnes of Kleve (1312) gave him control over the City of Duisburg, but the Marriage never produced any heirs, and in 1320 he declared his Sister Margaretha (Mother of the above mentioned Margaret, creatively named) his heir. In 1348 he died, succeeded by Margarete and her Husband Gerhard. This united the Counties of Berg and Ravensberg, a Union that wouldn’t be broken until 1672.
(*PURE SPECULATION ON MY PART* The Fact that he, 8 years into his marriage, decided to name his niece as heir may indicate some sort of fertility issue?)

Just like in Ravensberg, it would be great to have Events displaying the inheritance by Gerhard. Under Margeret and Gerhards son Wilhelm II/I of Ravenberg and Berg the County of Berg was elevated to a Duchy. I am not sure how these Ranks are Handled in Game, just putting this here as a Note.

Jülich:
Geography:
Again, not much to add here which hasn’t already been said in other, better posts.

Dynastically:
The County (technically a Margravate since 1336, and soon to be elevated to a Duchy in 1356) of Jülich is ruled by Wilhelm V (Wilhelm I as Duke) of Jülich. He was quite notable, since his Wife was the sister of the wives of the Holy Roman Emperor Ludwig IV and the King of England Edward III. He was somehow made Earl of Cambridge? (What?)
Wilhelms oldest Son Gerhard entered a great marriage a year after the game started and managed to inherit both Ravensberg and Berg. This side line would later become the Dukes of Berg (see above).
Wilhelm was succeeded by his second Son Wilhelm II, who managed to get his son Wilhelm III/I to inherit Geldern-Zutphen via his mother. It would be great if there was a way for the game to make Jülich inheritable to the second son, since by normal inheritance rules it would have falled to Gerhard (which would make it an extremely strong local power).
After Wilhelm III/I’s son Rainald I/IV died in 1423, the Line of Gerhard would inherit the lands of Jüllich and Claims to Geldern-Zutphen (which was taken over by another House), forming the Duchy of Jüllich-Berg (and also obviously still ruling the County of Ravenberg).

Kleve:
Geography:
Of note again: Duisburg, already mentioned in the Berg Section. It will be re-aquired by Kleve in 1392.

Dynastically:
The County of Kleve is currently ruled by Dietrich VII. He had 3 daughters at this point, the eldest of which (Margarethe von Kleve) was married to the Count of Mark, Adolf II. Dietrich had made his daughters his heirs, but in 1338 his brother, Johann of Kleve, forced him to change this to favor him. After Dietrich’s Death in 1347 Johann inherited, but himself died Childless in 1368. The County was inherited by Margarethe and Adolf II's second Son, Adolf III/I. After another short succession split, Adolfs III/I’s son Adolf IV/II would become the Duke of Kleve, and keep that title united with Mark.
These inheritances would probably emerge naturally from the succession system, which is really cool!

Mark:
Geography:
Not much to note here, it could be considered that Altena is a releaseable TAG, it was ruled by an independent side branch of the von der Mark 100 years ago.

Dynastically:
The County of Mark is ruled by Adolf II, who doesn’t appear to be all that interesting. His Marriage into House Kleve would prove useful some 30 years in the future.

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Thank you in case anyone reads this, I am sorry if this post is kindoff long and rambly without much of a point. I really appreciate the level of detail that has gone into this project so far.

 

[TygrFili]

Czech lands suggestions:

First, let me thank some other people here for their suggestions, from which I took some inspiration.

Second, I created a map showing the actual locations of the cities to make sure the locations are placed correctly.

Green cities are the original ones, red ones are suggestions from me and from others.

You mentioned that you want to make the transition between Germany and the east a bit smoother, so I added some locations (especially in the southwest) to better match the density of Germany. You might think it’s too many new locations, so you can just take it as inspiration for potential additions (I increased the amount of locations from 59 by 10).

It is quite apparent that you based the provinces on a certain map of historical regions. I suggest that it’s nice to do that, but in some areas, I moved the locations so that the cities are not on location edges; in some other areas I instead moved the locations, so that they match even better with the historical map.

Here is the map of my suggestions. (Red borders are the new ones and green are the original ones).

Below, I explain my reasoning and the changes made for each province individually:

Chebsko or Loketsko:

• Although there was settlement in the area, Jáchymov was founded only in 1516 as a silver mining town. Ostrov was an important city nearby which was founded in the 13th century and is important to this day.

1. I moved the Loket location a bit west.
2. I moved the Jáchymov location into this province, renamed it to Ostrov, and moved it west into parts of Kadaň and Loket.

Žatecko:

1. I expanded Kadaň north into former Jáchymov.

Litoměřicko:

• There is an option to split of Lipá (Česká Lípa) from Děčín, it was an important castle with a town.

Plzeňsko:

• Teplá was important for its monastery which had influence in much of the surrounding areas, it was also an important market town.
• Stříbro was an important mining town, one of the biggest towns in Plzeňsko, its name literally means silver.

1. I added the Teplá location from parts of Tachov, Plzeň, Kadaň, and Žatec.
2. I added the Stříbro location from parts of Plzeň and Domažlice.
3. I expanded Plzeň into Klatovy to compensate for its losses.

Praha / Střední Čechy / Praha and Kouřimsko:

• Příbram was an important silver (13th-16th century) and later (17th century) iron mining town.

1. I added the Příbram location from parts of Beroun and Písek.
2. I expanded Beroun into Prague to reach Karlštejn
3. I expanded Prague and Kouřim into Mladá Boleslav over the Labe River.

Boleslavsko:

• Dub (Český Dub, called Světlá until 1360) is one of the oldest towns in the region.

1. I moved Mladá Boleslav slightly north.
2. I added the location of Dub (it was the best way to split the large location of Turnov but I think it’s optional).
3. I expanded the remainder of the Turnov location a bit north.

Hradecko:

• Trutnov is a town with a castle.
• Lanšperk is an important castle near the town of Ústí and Orlicí.

1. I expanded Poděbrady and Jičín a bit west, so that the cities don’t lie on location borders.
2. I added the location of Trutnov (to split the large location of Jičín).
3. I expanded the Hradec Králové location to the west, so that the city is more in the centre.
4. I added the Lanšperk (or Ústí and Orlicí) location.

Posázaví or Chrudimsko (Posázavsko is wrong):

• No changes, you could include Kutná Hora in this province.

Olomoucko, Opavsko, Těšínsko – no changes (I’m not very familiar with the area)

Hradišťsko:

• As someone suggested, Kroměříž was one of the more important towns in the area, but the density seems already high.
• Another person suggested renaming Vizovice to Vsetín, the area is typical for livestock and sheep.
• The town is called Přerov not Přeřov.

Brněnsko:

• Hodonín is on the edge of the location, so I would suggest renaming the location to Břeclav.

Znojemsko:

• Třebíč is another important town in the area, but I didn’t add it because the location density is already high.

Jižní Čechy / Prácheňsko and Bechyňsko (Jihočesko is wrong):
Bechyňsko:

• There was a settlement in the location of Tábor, but Tábor itself was founded in 1420 by the Hussites. The biggest other settlement in the area was probably Sezimovo Ústí or Pelhřimov. If you decide to name it Sezimovo Ústí, then I would suggest renaming it to Tábor when the province changes to the Hussite faith; most people left Sezimovo Ústí for Tábor when it was founded.
• Jindřichův Hradec was an important trading town on the route between Prague and Vienna, there were also many workshops.
• Třeboň became a town in 1341, it was typical for mining lumber at the time and later many ponds for fish farming were created in the area.
• Vyšší Brod was a market town on the route between Prague and Linz, there was an important monastery too.

1. I added the location of Jindřichův Hradec from parts of Budějovice, Bechyně. And Tábor.
2. I added the location of Třeboň from parts of Budějovice.
3. I moved Budějovice west into Písek.
4. I added the location of Vyšší Brod.
5. I renamed Český Krumlov to Krumlov (the adjective was first attested in 1439).

Prácheňsko:

• Strakonice is another important town with a castle, it became the headquarters of the Knights Hospitaller in Bohemia during the Hussite wars.

1. I added the location of Strakonice from parts of Písek and Prácheň.
2. I moved the border between Písek and Prácheň.

Resources:

• Silver mining was very important in Bohemia (Ostrov, Stříbro, Příbram, Kutná Hora, Německý Brod, and Jihlava were all silver mining locations), for balance purposes I don’t think all of them will have silver, but please make sure many of them do.
• Fish farming too was quite important, the area around Třeboň is famous for it, the first fishponds were created by the end of the 15th century there. There were many ponds in the Poděbrady area too, some of them could have even existed by the start of the game (the biggest of them was Blato).

Sources:
Mostly Czech Wikipedia and other people’s suggestions here

Of course, I am no expert on history, so you are all free to make your suggestions and I don’t expect all changes to make the cut into the final game. I actually encourage you all to disagree with me and do your own research.

 

[Sylas]

Here are some hungarian localisation for the region

Spoiler: Bohemia

LOCATIONS
Bechyně	Böhönye
Bítov	Bitó
Brno	Börénvásár
Čáslav	Császló
Český Krumlov	Görbemező
Dačice	Dacsó
Hodonín	Gödöny
Hradec Králové	Királyvárad
Hradiště	Magyarvár
Jihlava	Igló
Kutná Hora	Kutumbánya
Německý Brod	Németbarád
Olomouc	Alamóc
Pernštejn	Medveskő
Písek	Piszek
Praha	Prága
Přeřov	Pelsőc
Příbor	Szabadi
Prostějov	Poroszló
Šumperk	Somhegy
Vizovice	Viszvidék
Vyškov	Viskó
Zábřeh	Zabocsa
Znojmo	Zolymó
PROVINCES
Brněnsko	Börén
Hradiště	Radistya
Olomouc	Alamóc
Praha	Prága
Znojmo	Zolymó

Spoiler: Austria

LOCATIONS
Amstetten	Berenc
Baden	Podony
Bruck an der Leitha	Lajtahida
Bruck and der Mur	Murahida
Celje	Cille
Feldbach	Mezőpatak
Fürstenfeld	Fölöstöm
Gänserndorf	Libapásztorfalu
Gmünd	Gamánd
Grafendorf	Grófalva
Graz	Geréc
Hollabrunn	Holládkutas
Horn	Horony
Judenburg	Zsidóvár
Korneuburg	Újmezőváros
Krems	Körmes
Leibnitz	Labanc
Leoben	Lébény
Liezen	Lőcsény
Lilienfeld	Iszalagos
Mariazell	Máriacell
Maribor	Határvár
Melk	Mölk
Mistelbach	Misztel
Murau	Muravár
Mürzzuschlag	Murcaság
Neunkirchen	Újegyháza
Oberwölz	Völc
Pitten	Bökény
Pölstal	Pölös
Purkersdorf	Pólyosfalu
Rottenmann	Rőtfalva
Schladming	Szurdok
St. Pölten	Szentpöltény
Tulln	Tulun
Voitsberg	Vojcahegy
Waidhofen an der Thaya	Dályaudvari
Weiz	Vidéc
Wien	Bécs
Wiener Neustadt	Bécsújhely
Zistersdorf	Ciszterfalva
Zwettl	Világos
PROVINCES
Amstetten	Berenc
Carniola	Krajna
Ennstal	Ensza-völgy
Hartberg	Várvidék
Leibnitz	Labanc
Lungau	Mura
Mürztal	Murca-völgy
Ober der Manhartsberg	Erdőnegyed
Pitten	Bökény
Styria	Stájerország
Unter der Manhartsberg	Bornegyed
Unter der Wienerwald	Bécsi-erdő
Vienna	Bécs
AREAS
Bohemia	Csehország
Kärnten	Karintia/Korontályország
Lower Austria	Alsó-Ausztria
Moravia	Morvaország
Oberösterreich	Felső-Ausztria
Slovenia	Szlovénia
Steiermark	Stájerország

 

[prof_Chemical]

We think that this is the best way to portray this kind of semi-autonomous community (as let's say, one tag per location wouldn't really represent the situation, either).

Well there are the Communitates Terrae/ Landesgemeinden which could be countries on the map as peasant republics within a Frisian Freedom IO?
Unless, the thinking is that these would be too small to be locations?

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/03044181.2015.1034162

I'd need to dig around for more rhobust sources, (there's maps online of frisian 'lands' but i'd need to verify these were accurate and if the landesgemeinden refer to the same thing and not a smaller unit of political organisation between them and individual communes)

Not to mention, it would be a revision over an already reviewed area to have the locations roughly align with the local lands/ gau/ terrae...
The current solution likely works well enough.

maybe in a post game update

 

[Necurok]

Hi all,

I am from the region that is here depicated as Amberg/Vohenstrauß.

I only have two remarks here.

1. Vohenstrauß should be renamed to either Parkstein or Leuchtenberg as those were much more relevant during the timeframe. Especially the early period.

2. I am not 100% sure if the Praha Market is the right one here. Nuremberg as a free city was mich closer and very important during the timeframe. Maybe there is a need for an additional Nuremberg market between cologne and Praha.

Best

 

[DOURIOS]

There is something strange that I have noticed about Austria and it's borders with Passau.

Why does Passau control the Rohrbach location and not Austria? I don't think Passau controled much outside Passau itself (If it actually did control it I would really like to see the source as I have never seen this location not controled by the duchy of Austria from it's inception).


There is also the Schaunberg county and it's lack of existanse. Schaunberg didn't become part of Austria just yet, as it was incorporated into her at the end of the 14th century.

The locations for the county of Schaunberg should be Vocklabruck, Grieskirchen and Wels.

 

[EB14]

can we port these hre provinces to ck3?

 

[Ammerländer]

Regarding the provinces, I think -gau naming is in most cases bad, because it does not feel right.
It feels more appropriate for a game in the 1000s to 1200s. Instead, I think modern names should be used. Maybe after the most prominent settlement or region in the province.
Example for northwestern Germany:
Ammergau -> Oldenburg, most prominent location and also the country that will eventually rule most of it
Agradingingau -> Emsland, the name of the modern district and also a fairly neutral name based on the local river Ems OR Meppen, s the most prominent location (I think)
Wigmodi -> Hadeln und Wursten, OR one of both, most well known names for the historic regions east of the river Weser.
Heilangau -> Stade

I cannot say much about which locations should be grouped into one province, but I would argue that Elsfleth should be part of the Ammergau/Oldenburg province, as parts of it belong to Oldenburg for most of the game's timeframe.
The location of Jever, could also be split into two, Jever and Wittmund, to properly reflect the border between Eastfrisia and Oldenburg, although I believe both remained independent of the respective counties for a long time.

Some flavor for the region could be in events regarding the collusion of the Eastfrisian chieftains and counts of Oldenburg with the victual brothers, the ever present storms and floods of the North Sea and land reclamation, conflict between Oldenburg and Bremen over tolls on the river Weser, and maybe the Oldenburger horses as a trade good later in game. According to local legend, Tilly was bribed with these horses for his artillery, to keep him from sieging the town during the Thirty Years War.

 

[Enzo☦️]

Culture:
View attachment 1167626
Let’s open the Pandora box and take a look at the cultures! The German cultures have come through a couple of reworks, until we’ve found a spot in which we’re kind of happy (or, at least, our German content designers do not complain!). The German cultures are very linguistically related, as we thought that it would be the best starting point for 1337. Please let us know about your thoughts on them.

Why was Trieste made majority Slovene from the last Italian dev diary? This is completely inaccurate, it was fine how it was.

 

[Johai]

Hi, I wanted to make a post about Basel my hometown.

There are four things I would like to bring to your attention for possible changes. I will have to say in advance that most of my sources will be in German.

First is the population of Basel.
The current population seems rather low especially given that Basel was one of the bigger cities in Switzerland at the end of the Medieval Period. Most sources give the population of around 6'000-10'000 people in the city alone and 4'000-6'000 in the surrounding areas. However, it must be said that the higher-end numbers seem too big, and modern historians estimate that around the black death, there were around 7'000 inhabitants in the city of Basel. At the same time, the surrounding countryside had around 5'000 inhabitants.

Einwohnerzahl von Basel im Mittelalter

woher der basler strassenname im surinam stammt.

altbasel.ch

This website is a write-up of different sources of what the late medieval population of Basel was. Sources used in the website are at the bottom.

Basel und die Pest 1349 / der Schwarze Tod

die pestpandemie von 1346/53 und ihre wirkung in basel

altbasel.ch

The same website but this time with population numbers around the black death.

The 1356 Basel earthquake: an interdisciplinary revision

Summary. Within historical times one of the most damaging events in intra-plate Europe was the 1356 Basel earthquake. Given its significance for assessing

academic.oup.com

A scientific paper about a big earthquake that happened in 1356 which led to the destruction of a bigger part of the city. Information about the population can be found in the introduction(not the main part of the paper).

https://hls-dhs-dss.ch/de/articles/007387/2016-01-13/#HBevF6lkerungundSiedlungvom13.bis15.Jahrhundert

An article about the bishopric of Basel mentions rough population data for the city and surrounding rural areas.


Second is the culture of Basel.
You said you wanted to align the different cultures along linguistic similarities. In this sense, it could make sense to change the culture of Basel to Rhine Alemanic to better reflect two things. First, while the modern dialect in Basel is more aligned with the broader Swiss dialects, the classic and original dialect is more aligned with the dialects spoken in Alsace. Secondly, while Basel later on joined the Swiss Confederation it was until this point much more aligned with Cities such as Strasbourg and Mulhouse in the Alsacian Territory, especially during the Burgundian Wars where Basel similarly to the Alsacian Cities saw their existence threatened by an emerging Burgundy.

The Alemannic Language – The Swiss Spectator

www.swiss-spectator.ch

Mentions Basel and the Alsace as part of the Oberrheinalemanisch currently in-game depicted as rhine Alemannic.

https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/197553825.pdf

Paper about the different Alemanic dialects grouping Basel with the Alsacian Oberrheinalemanisch

Die Straße der badischen Mundarten : eine Mundart-Radtour vom Karlsruher Schlossplatz zum Basler Barfüßerplatz : unterwegs auf den Rheinstaffeln von Karlsruhe nach Basel oder von den südfränkischen durch die oberrhein-alemannischen zu den südalemanni

Hätten Sie gedacht, dass Sie bei der Fahrt durch das altbadische Oberrheintal von Karlsruhe nach Basel mindestens drei große Mundartlandschaften durchqueren und Dutzende von Mundartlinien überschreiten? Statt der schnellen Autofahrt von 2 Stunden 13 Minuten können Sie aber auch das langsamere...

regionalia.blb-karlsruhe.de

Paper about Alemanic dialects in Südbaden.

Visual representation of Alemanic dialects from Wikipedia. Modern dialectic version.



Third is the Area and Province of Basel and in a similar vein Solothurn.
Currently, both of them are part of the Neuchâtel province and in turn part of the Romandie area. Both locations should not be in the Romandie area since both are German-speaking locations and were less aligned with the French-speaking part that the Romandie covers. First I would take both the locations of Basel and Solothurn and make a new province with these two and probably call it Basel. Similar to the treatment you gave the Oberwallis and Bas Valais. Also, if you are going to keep the division of the Swiss areas in the current three areas you should add this new province to western Switzerland.

Language division of Switzerland. Solothurn and Basel are the Edge of the German-speaking regions.

Similar thing could me made with Basel and Solothurn.

Current Swiss area division.


Lastly, the political situation.
While it isn't incorrect to depict the bishopric of Basel as owning and controlling the city of Basel, there could be some arguments made that the city should be its own tag similar to how Riga or Cologne both have a bishopric and the city as different tags. My suggestion is that the city of Basel should be a type of vassal under the bishopric of Basel. This is because after reaching its zenith of power around 1300 the bishopric became more and more burdened by debts and had to sell part by part its privileges to the citizens of Basel to avoid going bankrupt. Also, the city of Basel already enjoyed a lot of privileges since the formation of a council by the bishop and the writing of a city constitution in 1263. While the final privileges that gave the city its final independence were only sold in 1392, Basel as the city was already factually independent from the bishopric at this point. This can be seen by the fact that although nominally the city only became independent after the Reformation and the ousting of the bishop in 1528, Basel joined the Swiss confederation in 1501 as one of the 13 main sovereign cantons while the bishopric of Basel only joined 1579 as an ally of the Swiss confederacy and not as a main canton.

https://hls-dhs-dss.ch/de/articles/008558/2019-08-12/#HEntstehungundpolitischeGeschichte

An article about the history of the bishopric relevant section about the downfall starting in 1324 is a bit down.

Picture showing the different status and join date between Basel and the bishopric concerning the Swiss Confederation. Source Wikipedia.



In summary, I would suggest 4 changes:
1. Increase the population of Basel to a more historically accurate count.
2. Change the culture of Basel to Rhine Alemanic
3. Join Basel and Solothurn in a new Province called Basel and add them to the area of Western Switzerland.
4. Add the city of Basel as an independent tag, which could be represented as a vassal of the bishopric.

Also while typing this up I saw some things I would change in the general area of Switzerland but I would have to look at it closer and will do it in a new post when I have the time to look at it more closely.

 

[DaJay42]

Some of my thoughts on the Switzerland area:
(some of 'em restating what others already said)

• I am very amused to see Solothurn made it in, in all its bordergory glory. Instant nomination for most cursed location shape.
• The Obwalden tag should be Unterwalden as it includes Nidwalden.
• The province "Schwyz" should be Waldstätte. At the time it was the Reichsvogtei Waldstätte, and even today the locations (Uri, Schwyz, Unterwalden) are known as such. (Occasionally, Glarus or Luzern were also counted among the Waldstätte.)
• It is weird that all the German-speaking locations use their German names, except Luzern, which uses the french "Lucerne".
• The location of Frauenfeld seems to correspond almost exactly to the Landgrafschaft Thurgau, so maybe Thurgau would be a better name for it. As for the Province of Thurgau, I'm not so sure.
• The monastery of Interlaken (which gives the location its name and controlled most of its territory) wasn't under Bernese control until 1425 (de jure) / 1472 (de facto) and would only be fully annexed in 1528 during the reformation. It should arguably be its own tag, maybe potentially under protection of the Habsburgs, as Alfred II held the formal office of reeve/bailiff in 1337.
• In general, the various city-states seem to be holding too much land, though I suppose this is the limit of what the chosen location size can show.
• Basel being part of a province Neuchâtel seems odd to me, as the Prince-Bishophoric of Basel controlled the majority of it.
• The locations of Bern and Biel/Bienne are weird and should be further north; Bienne should be in a straight line between Neuchâtel and Solothurn; Bern should be north-east of Fribourg.
• Also, the location of Courtelary should be more west rather than north of Bienne, and post-1300, should be under Bienne rather that Basel.
• Having the locations Solothurn and Basel but not Bienne as part of the Romandy area is very weird.
• The location Bienne uses its French name, but the culture appears to be Alemannic with not even a significant French minority. Odd.
• The location of Aarau seems to be based on post-napoleonic borders, which I'm not sure is fitting. Would splitting off Baden (eastern third) and Fricktal (northwestern part) as separate locations make them too small?
  • Fricktal could be part of a Basel province together with Basel and Solothurn. Then the Neuchâtel province could gain Bienne instead. (And maybe even Yverdon, too, as those three are often considered part of the same region.)
  • While we're at it, move the new Baden location to Zürichgau, and Langenthal to Aargau instead.
  • Optionally optionally, cut off the northwestern half of Luzern (Zofingen? Sursee? Willisau?), and move Luzern proper to Waldstätte.
• Appenzell seems to be the only one of the 23 Stände to lack its own location. I'm sure they could be squeezed in in eastern St.Gallen? It just feels incomplete this way.
• Most of the free Swiss (proto-) republics seem to have a dynasty of "von <Location>", which seems a wee bit silly. I feel they shouldn't need any; but if they do, surely you can figure out the actual people in charge?
• Speaking of dynasties, I'm slightly disappointed that house of Neu-Kyburg didn't make it in; though given the small size of their holdings, that would've been a stretch. House of Neu-Kyburg should control Langenthal. I'm not sure if they do; I can't read it on the dynasty map.
• As people seem to like asking for microstates, Republic of Gersau when? Nah, I'm kidding.
• I concur with whoever asked for more lakes, in particular lake Luzern and lake Zürich. Others, such as Lake Bienne might also be nice to have, but would have less of an impact on gameplay.
• Looking a bit further north, it's odd to not see any of the Alsatian free cities, especially Mulhouse/Mülhausen.

As an aside, I wonder how tough playing these tags somewhat historically will be. How are a bunch of opms going to repeatedly beat Habsburg Austria?

Shower thought: This seems to be one of the few pdx maps in recent memory that has an overall decent depiction of Basel, so that's pretty neat.

Edit: Also I agree with most of what Johai said.

 

[Wencosa]

And even this is inconsistently applied, as Johan mentioned a cap of 500 m above sea level for flatlands, while the Chilterns don't even reach 300 m.

Hopefully this will be remedied with community feedback such as @SulphurAeron's impressive solution, and maybe Tinto can be convinced to introduce rolling terrain as a softer tier between flatlands and hills.

If they do that, another type should be inbetween hills and mountains. Bohemia feels very wrong with its borders being one type of Hills everywhere...

 

[Wencosa]

It definitely feels like there would be some areas that deserve some impassable terrain here. In particular the Harz mountains in Germany and the Ore mountains and Sudetes in Bohemia.

I dont think it should be impassable...but making some locations mountains would be good.

 

[Pavel.czv]

Czech lands suggestions:

First, let me thank some other people here for their suggestions, from which I took some inspiration.

Second, I created a map showing the actual locations of the cities to make sure the locations are placed correctly.

Green cities are the original ones, red ones are suggestions from me and from others.

You mentioned that you want to make the transition between Germany and the east a bit smoother, so I added some locations (especially in the southwest) to better match the density of Germany. You might think it’s too many new locations, so you can just take it as inspiration for potential additions (I increased the amount of locations from 59 by 10).

It is quite apparent that you based the provinces on a certain map of historical regions. I suggest that it’s nice to do that, but in some areas, I moved the locations so that the cities are not on location edges; in some other areas I instead moved the locations, so that they match even better with the historical map.

Here is the map of my suggestions. (Red borders are the new ones and green are the original ones).

Below, I explain my reasoning and the changes made for each province individually:

Chebsko or Loketsko:

• Although there was settlement in the area, Jáchymov was founded only in 1516 as a silver mining town. Ostrov was an important city nearby which was founded in the 13th century and is important to this day.

1. I moved the Loket location a bit west.
2. I moved the Jáchymov location into this province, renamed it to Ostrov, and moved it west into parts of Kadaň and Loket.

Žatecko:

1. I expanded Kadaň north into former Jáchymov.

Litoměřicko:

• There is an option to split of Lipá (Česká Lípa) from Děčín, it was an important castle with a town.

Plzeňsko:

• Teplá was important for its monastery which had influence in much of the surrounding areas, it was also an important market town.
• Stříbro was an important mining town, one of the biggest towns in Plzeňsko, its name literally means silver.

1. I added the Teplá location from parts of Tachov, Plzeň, Kadaň, and Žatec.
2. I added the Stříbro location from parts of Plzeň and Domažlice.
3. I expanded Plzeň into Klatovy to compensate for its losses.

Praha / Střední Čechy / Praha and Kouřimsko:

• Příbram was an important silver (13th-16th century) and later (17th century) iron mining town.

1. I added the Příbram location from parts of Beroun and Písek.
2. I expanded Beroun into Prague to reach Karlštejn
3. I expanded Prague and Kouřim into Mladá Boleslav over the Labe River.

Boleslavsko:

• Dub (Český Dub, called Světlá until 1360) is one of the oldest towns in the region.

1. I moved Mladá Boleslav slightly north.
2. I added the location of Dub (it was the best way to split the large location of Turnov but I think it’s optional).
3. I expanded the remainder of the Turnov location a bit north.

Hradecko:

• Trutnov is a town with a castle.
• Lanšperk is an important castle near the town of Ústí and Orlicí.

1. I expanded Poděbrady and Jičín a bit west, so that the cities don’t lie on location borders.
2. I added the location of Trutnov (to split the large location of Jičín).
3. I expanded the Hradec Králové location to the west, so that the city is more in the centre.
4. I added the Lanšperk (or Ústí and Orlicí) location.

Posázaví or Chrudimsko (Posázavsko is wrong):

• No changes, you could include Kutná Hora in this province.

Olomoucko, Opavsko, Těšínsko – no changes (I’m not very familiar with the area)

Hradišťsko:

• As someone suggested, Kroměříž was one of the more important towns in the area, but the density seems already high.
• Another person suggested renaming Vizovice to Vsetín, the area is typical for livestock and sheep.
• The town is called Přerov not Přeřov.

Brněnsko:

• Hodonín is on the edge of the location, so I would suggest renaming the location to Břeclav.

Znojemsko:

• Třebíč is another important town in the area, but I didn’t add it because the location density is already high.

Jižní Čechy / Prácheňsko and Bechyňsko (Jihočesko is wrong):
Bechyňsko:

• There was a settlement in the location of Tábor, but Tábor itself was founded in 1420 by the Hussites. The biggest other settlement in the area was probably Sezimovo Ústí or Pelhřimov. If you decide to name it Sezimovo Ústí, then I would suggest renaming it to Tábor when the province changes to the Hussite faith; most people left Sezimovo Ústí for Tábor when it was founded.
• Jindřichův Hradec was an important trading town on the route between Prague and Vienna, there were also many workshops.
• Třeboň became a town in 1341, it was typical for mining lumber at the time and later many ponds for fish farming were created in the area.
• Vyšší Brod was a market town on the route between Prague and Linz, there was an important monastery too.

1. I added the location of Jindřichův Hradec from parts of Budějovice, Bechyně. And Tábor.
2. I added the location of Třeboň from parts of Budějovice.
3. I moved Budějovice west into Písek.
4. I added the location of Vyšší Brod.
5. I renamed Český Krumlov to Krumlov (the adjective was first attested in 1439).

Prácheňsko:

• Strakonice is another important town with a castle, it became the headquarters of the Knights Hospitaller in Bohemia during the Hussite wars.

1. I added the location of Strakonice from parts of Písek and Prácheň.
2. I moved the border between Písek and Prácheň.

Resources:

• Silver mining was very important in Bohemia (Ostrov, Stříbro, Příbram, Kutná Hora, Německý Brod, and Jihlava were all silver mining locations), for balance purposes I don’t think all of them will have silver, but please make sure many of them do.
• Fish farming too was quite important, the area around Třeboň is famous for it, the first fishponds were created by the end of the 15th century there. There were many ponds in the Poděbrady area too, some of them could have even existed by the start of the game (the biggest of them was Blato).

Sources:
Mostly Czech Wikipedia and other people’s suggestions here

Of course, I am no expert on history, so you are all free to make your suggestions and I don’t expect all changes to make the cut into the final game. I actually encourage you all to disagree with me and do your own research.

I would recommend further changes to Moravia to improve the accuracy of its terrain by adding hilly locations:
1) Brod/Uherský Brod was a royal town/city since 1272 and an important fort during the Hussite Wars as well as a staging area for invasions into Hungary.
2) The oldest mentions of Nový Jičín date back to 1313 when John of Luxembourg gave it the right to collect tariffs on trade, at that time it was already a town.
3) Kroměříž was founded in 1263 by the bishop in Olomouc, it served as an administrative center for the diocese and as a summer residence for the bishop. It was also located on the crossroads of the Amber and Salt roads.
4) Sternberg was originally a castle built in the mid 13th century with the town of the same name being founded at the end of that century. The town was located on the Amber road. The town in 1337 was still somewhat under construction.

I would further recommend that terrain in Brno should be changed to plains from hills and that the terrain in Prostějov be changed from plains to hills.

The changes in terrain i proposed are based on a map i posted earlier in this thread, i will post it here as well for convenience.

 

[DominusNovus]

Of course! How we could avoid such fun content?

With vigorous heresy trials?

 

[Linbot#6018]

I feel like the Bohemian massif should be more isolated of a geographical area than it is. This is a rough proposal for some impassable regions I think could be added. These areas are meant to represent places that are outside of main communication routes in and out of the region and probably wouldn't be traversed by an army, not that they're uninhabitable or can't be walked through. I'd appreciate feedback on whether people think these make sense.

These maps were used as inspiration

 

[BelisariusBonaparte]

Why Saxon culture on modern Saxony and Thüringen? It isn't/ wasn't Saxon, why not representing it linguistically/culturally correctly?

 

[BelisariusBonaparte]

How will cultures (culture groups) work? Will we get all Franconian, all Saxon, Bavarian, allemanic, thuringian etc. into one subgroup each? Which than would be merge into one bigger "Deutsch" group? For example: holsatijan, lower Saxon, Eastphalian, Westphalian and angrian into an Saxon sub culture group. This Saxon sub group could be in an low German/ Niederdutch/Plattdeutsch culture group, which than could be in an pan group like German/Deutsch. (Same could be done for the romanic, Slavic, Bantu, Iranian,etc. areas)

 

[Mef]

I feel like the Bohemian massif should be more isolated of a geographical area than it is. This is a rough proposal for some impassable regions I think could be added. These areas are meant to represent places that are outside of main communication routes in and out of the region and probably wouldn't be traversed by an army, not that they're uninhabitable or can't be walked through. I'd appreciate feedback on whether people think these make sense.

What's the point of these tiny impassable areas between locations that are connected anyway? It makes no difference for gameplay and just makes the map look weird.
Impassable borders only make sense when there are only a small number of mountain passes in a region.

One of the biggest impassable areas you drew is exactly where the famous Goldene Steig salt route passed through: