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Tinto Talks #24 - 7th of August 2024

Welcome to another Tinto Talks, the Happy Wednesday where we spill the secrets about our entirely super secret, nobody will ever guess its name, game, which we refer to as Project Caesar.

Today we will delve into a lot of naval related aspects, when we talk about everything from Maritime Presence to Naval Combat.

Importance of Maritime Presence
First of all, we need to get back to the importance of maritime presence and naval capacity in Project Caesar. Before you can get advanced road networks through your country, your proximity propagation is much faster through places where you have maritime presence. Any seazone where you have no maritime presence OR a location without any road network costs about 40 ‘proximity’ to traverse through, which basically means you can not propagate any control more than 3 locations away. Of course, there are things that impact your proximity costs per location, like topography, vegetation, development and societal values as well.

proximity_map.png

The heartland has some access, but the coasts are the most important to us..

For a coastal seazone, if you have 100% maritime presence, the base cost is 5 per location. If you have less than 100% maritime presence it will scale the price accordingly. So at 33% maritime presence, and you have no other modifiers, it would cost 0.33*5 + 0.67*40, i.e. about 28.45.

Lakes and Major Rivers are always considered to be 100% maritime presence sea zones for proximity calculations and market access calculations.

proximity_kalmar.png

Why is the seazone outside Stockholm called 'Trälhavet'?

As you can see here, tracing the proximity out from Kalmar to the seazone of Kalmar Sund is a bit costly, as going from land to sea through a port has a higher base cost. This is severely reduced by the infrastructure and development you have built up in that location, as well as the natural harbor attributes that location has.

Natural Harbors
This is something new for this game that we have not done before. With so many locations, and such granularity, and mechanics emphasizing a deeper simulation, we had to start treating places differently, as there is a reason why certain places on the map are better suited as ports than others. This also explains why certain locations grew to be important places in history over others.

map_of_harbors.png

The brighter the green the better the harbor can be..

Of course, you can improve the harbor suitability of a location by building certain infrastructure, so even if the location you want to build up lacks the natural benefits, it can still be built up, even if it is more costly to do so as well.

The Harbor Suitability of a location has a significant impact on the trade and proximity calculations, and also impacts how quickly armies can be loaded or unloaded from the location.

bristol_useful.png

Bristol has its uses. The main question though, Rovers or City?


Shipbuilding
One of the disadvantages of playing a naval nation, in other games we’ve made, was the simple fact that unless you had a large coastline you could not compete, no matter how good the coastal locations you had were. One of the reasons was the simple fact that you could only build a ship at a time, and if you wanted to recruit a regiment, you couldn’t.

In Project Caesar this has changed, first of all, there are three different construction queues in a location. First there is the civil one for buildings, RGO’s, and all other non-military oriented things you can do in a location. Secondly we have the army based queue, and finally, we have the naval based queue, so you can recruit regiments at the same time that you build ships in a location.

We also added the concept of parallel ship building in a location, where buildings can unlock additional shipbuilding slots in a location, where at the end of the game you can build close to twenty ships at the same time in the same shipyard, with all the related advances and other stuff unlocked.


venetian_arsenal.png

This is a unique building that Venice has in its capital that increases the parallel capacity of shipbuilding by 4.


Blockades
One of the most powerful abilities that you can do during a war is blockading another nation's coast. The immediate impact is a reduction of food production, maximum control and making trades being more costly and likely to reroute. There is also the fact that development growth is severely slowed, the decline of prosperity and a dramatic reduction of your maritime presence.

As some say, an image tells you more than 1,000 words, we’ll use a few screenshots of tooltips related to blockades to make it a bit more clear.


blockade_tt.png

This can’t be all bad right?

Even with only a single port fully blockaded, the maritime presence in the seazone is severely impacted, and will take many months to recover, unless you got coastal forts or navies patrolling it for a long time after a war.

maritime_change.png

I do love the adjective for Holland..

Not all ships are great at blockading, as you most likely want to have Heavy Ships and/or Light Ships to do the blockading.

blockade_capacity.png

This type of hulk doesn’t smash…

Not all locations are equal, and different populations, infrastructure and development increases how much ships are required to blockade a location.

blockade_required.png

There are about 32,000 people living in this nice rural settlement..

Ships Repairing
Every month that a fleet is in a seazone that is not adjacent to a friendly port they will start taking attrition. This attrition is increased dramatically if the fleet is outside the naval range. This attrition creates a chance for ships to be damaged. While usually you can only repair a ship in a port, there are advances in some ages that allows you to repair your ships in coastal sea zones, where at the Age of Revolutions you can repair a ship up to 50% efficiency without going back to a port.

Naval Range is calculated from every core port that you own, or is owned by one of your subjects, or owned by someone you have negotiated fleet basing rights with.

venice_naval_range.png

Can we control the entire mediterranean sea as Venice?

Transporting Troops
Ships in Project Caesar all have the capacity to transport regiments. The transport capacity of a ship is not measured in regiments but in the amount of men it can carry. Usually the transport ships are far better at carrying regiments, but other types of ships can carry some as well.

We also have automated transportation, similar to eu4, to make moving armies around the world less painful.

Combat
In a naval battle there is no separate bombardment phase, as most ships have guns, and they tend to want to use them constantly. Otherwise, it works similar to land combat, in that you have different sections, but the individual ships you have will fire upon each other.

But while it comes to the actual combat algorithm, ships work a bit differently, as there is no combat power or amount of soldiers fíghting to consider, but instead ships have an amount of cannons and hull size. Cannons are the offensive value, and hull size the defensive.

Types of Ships
There are four different categories of ships, Heavy Ships, Light Ships, Galleys and Transports. In each category there are at least one ship in each age that can be researched, but there are also many unique ships that can be built. There is no real restriction on what roles different ships can perform, but a Transport is not the best at blockading, and a Light Ship may not be ideal for transporting a lot of soldiers.

Each type of ship differs on how many trained sailors they need for their crew, how many cannons they can have, and more.

You can also raise ships as levies from your population, but those are usually best suited to transport armies shorter distances, and should not be relied upon in a sea battle.

ships_builder.png

WiP UI, but here is a unique galley for Aragon... 2 more guns, 1 more hull, but need 30 more sailors. And there’s also an Early Iberian Caravel, which all the Iberian countries may build.

Stay tuned, as next week we will talk about how colonization works.
 
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Well they said that the last galley unit is in the ago of absolutism so...

Yes but I also referred to that, xebecs aren't galleys, they are lateen-rigged sailing ships. Besides, if the bonus is towards the ship-type, that means these ships could still inflict way too much damage to heavy ships in narrows. Galley development was a dead end at end of 16th century, it had nowhere to go.

It's also why corsairs in Mediterranean abandoned galleys more or less and switched to lighter sail ships, because their galleys could no longer challenge or board even the merchantmen of the era which could defensively inflict disproportionate casualties with much smaller crew.

It's honestly okay for the whole ship type to be obsolete (except coastal patrols against which was mentioned in this dev diary). There is no need to try to drag it on. Xebecs should be a light ship.
 
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What will be done to make the naval warfare more interesting than EU4? The lack of terrain and ease of just doomstacking it generally made it incredibly boring and usually quite binary too.

What changes are there to add more depth and interest to the naval warefar?
 
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So no flagships as a separate mechanic. Good.

But will admirals be ghostly commanders, ever present on all ships, or will there be a designated "flagship" which when sunk in combat has a chance of killing the admiral?
(I think personally I'd prefer the ghostly commander.)
Why so much hate for flagships? I thought they were kinda fun for immersion, though they could have been better implemented
 
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between some locations?
Canals were very important in Brandenburg to link the Oder River and Elbe River; in Britain (Glastonbury Canal); the Netherlands (Herengracht, Prinsengracht and Keizersgracht); and especially China where the first canal system was finished in the 5th century BCE. I would love it if there were historically important canals (like in China) and if we had the possibility to build canals to connect different rivers (Oder-Elbe).

sui-tang-canals.png

(Wikipedia)
 
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Can you post the North Baltic, White Sea, Scotland, and Egypt natural harbors as they are cutoff right now and weren’t in their respective tinto maps
 
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I hope with China we see that lots of goods trade up and down rivers and canals, even north-south ones like the Grand Canal, and not up coasts all the time. Though this would definitely be the period where China sort of really starts to get more and more involved with maritime trade, canals were still key infrastructure here.
 
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We don't have a 'best harbour in the world' (as that may be very much debatable); what we have is 63 different locations with the best possible Harbor Suitability (100%, or 1.00 as how it's scripted, because it's an entirely scriptable [and, therefore, moddable] value).

I'm spitballing ideas here, so please take them with a grain of salt lest' some of them strike a light bulb in your noggin'.

I think there should be locations which should be especially rated as a bit analogous not too dissimilar to a ranking system that is dynamic based on technology that develops, or trade trends that arise based on strategic or geographic considerations (I.E, within vicinity of an alternative, highly competitive trade route - which may attract more mercantile activity and thus more development/infrastructure.)

I also think there should be very few locations that should completely satisfy the coveted 1.00 value to account for this reality.
 
Canals were very important in Brandenburg to link the Oder River and Elbe River; in Britain (Glastonbury Canal); the Netherlands (Herengracht, Prinsengracht and Keizersgracht); and especially China where the first canal system was finished in the 5th century BCE. I would love it if there were historically important canals (like in China) and if we had the possibility to build canals to connect different rivers (Oder-Elbe).

View attachment 1172737
(Wikipedia)
Well remember, Canals require constant maintenance to be usable. They also should probably not function like navigable rivers(if they are added) since of course no canal in the world is wide enough to have a proper naval battle on(if navigable rivers are a thing, would probably be best if they could connect to canals via nodes that require access/ownership on both ends rather than treating them exactly like rivers).

The Great Canal in this time period would be focused North-South traffic from the Yangtze to Beijing, not the old capitals at Chang'an or later Kaifeng which I believe were not in use anymore.

grand-canal-china-4.png
 
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Welcome to another Tinto Talks, the Happy Wednesday where we spill the secrets about our entirely super secret, nobody will ever guess its name, game, which we refer to as Project Caesar.

Today we will delve into a lot of naval related aspects, when we talk about everything from Maritime Presence to Naval Combat.

Importance of Maritime Presence
First of all, we need to get back to the importance of maritime presence and naval capacity in Project Caesar. Before you can get advanced road networks through your country, your proximity propagation is much faster through places where you have maritime presence. Any seazone where you have no maritime presence OR a location without any road network costs about 40 ‘proximity’ to traverse through, which basically means you can not propagate any control more than 3 locations away. Of course, there are things that impact your proximity costs per location, like topography, vegetation, development and societal values as well.

View attachment 1172606
The heartland has some access, but the coasts are the most important to us..

For a coastal seazone, if you have 100% maritime presence, the base cost is 5 per location. If you have less than 100% maritime presence it will scale the price accordingly. So at 33% maritime presence, and you have no other modifiers, it would cost 0.33*5 + 0.67*40, i.e. about 28.45.

Lakes and Major Rivers are always considered to be 100% maritime presence sea zones for proximity calculations and market access calculations.

View attachment 1172607
Why is the seazone outside Stockholm called 'Trälhavet'?

As you can see here, tracing the proximity out from Kalmar to the seazone of Kalmar Sund is a bit costly, as going from land to sea through a port has a higher base cost. This is severely reduced by the infrastructure and development you have built up in that location, as well as the natural harbor attributes that location has.

Natural Harbors
This is something new for this game that we have not done before. With so many locations, and such granularity, and mechanics emphasizing a deeper simulation, we had to start treating places differently, as there is a reason why certain places on the map are better suited as ports than others. This also explains why certain locations grew to be important places in history over others.

View attachment 1172608
The brighter the green the better the harbor can be..

Of course, you can improve the harbor suitability of a location by building certain infrastructure, so even if the location you want to build up lacks the natural benefits, it can still be built up, even if it is more costly to do so as well.

The Harbor Suitability of a location has a significant impact on the trade and proximity calculations, and also impacts how quickly armies can be loaded or unloaded from the location.

View attachment 1172609
Bristol has its uses. The main question though, Rovers or City?


Shipbuilding
One of the disadvantages of playing a naval nation, in other games we’ve made, was the simple fact that unless you had a large coastline you could not compete, no matter how good the coastal locations you had were. One of the reasons was the simple fact that you could only build a ship at a time, and if you wanted to recruit a regiment, you couldn’t.

In Project Caesar this has changed, first of all, there are three different construction queues in a location. First there is the civil one for buildings, RGO’s, and all other non-military oriented things you can do in a location. Secondly we have the army based queue, and finally, we have the naval based queue, so you can recruit regiments at the same time that you build ships in a location.

We also added the concept of parallel ship building in a location, where buildings can unlock additional shipbuilding slots in a location, where at the end of the game you can build close to twenty ships at the same time in the same shipyard, with all the related advances and other stuff unlocked.


View attachment 1172610
This is a unique building that Venice has in its capital that increases the parallel capacity of shipbuilding by 4.


Blockades
One of the most powerful abilities that you can do during a war is blockading another nation's coast. The immediate impact is a reduction of food production, maximum control and making trades being more costly and likely to reroute. There is also the fact that development growth is severely slowed, the decline of prosperity and a dramatic reduction of your maritime presence.

As some say, an image tells you more than 1,000 words, we’ll use a few screenshots of tooltips related to blockades to make it a bit more clear.


View attachment 1172611
This can’t be all bad right?

Even with only a single port fully blockaded, the maritime presence in the seazone is severely impacted, and will take many months to recover, unless you got coastal forts or navies patrolling it for a long time after a war.

View attachment 1172612
I do love the adjective for Holland..

Not all ships are great at blockading, as you most likely want to have Heavy Ships and/or Light Ships to do the blockading.

View attachment 1172613
This type of hulk doesn’t smash…

Not all locations are equal, and different populations, infrastructure and development increases how much ships are required to blockade a location.

View attachment 1172614
There are about 32,000 people living in this nice rural settlement..

Ships Repairing
Every month that a fleet is in a seazone that is not adjacent to a friendly port they will start taking attrition. This attrition is increased dramatically if the fleet is outside the naval range. This attrition creates a chance for ships to be damaged. While usually you can only repair a ship in a port, there are advances in some ages that allows you to repair your ships in coastal sea zones, where at the Age of Revolutions you can repair a ship up to 50% efficiency without going back to a port.

Naval Range is calculated from every core port that you own, or is owned by one of your subjects, or owned by someone you have negotiated fleet basing rights with.

View attachment 1172615
Can we control the entire mediterranean sea as Venice?

Transporting Troops
Ships in Project Caesar all have the capacity to transport regiments. The transport capacity of a ship is not measured in regiments but in the amount of men it can carry. Usually the transport ships are far better at carrying regiments, but other types of ships can carry some as well.

We also have automated transportation, similar to eu4, to make moving armies around the world less painful.

Combat
In a naval battle there is no separate bombardment phase, as most ships have guns, and they tend to want to use them constantly. Otherwise, it works similar to land combat, in that you have different sections, but the individual ships you have will fire upon each other.

But while it comes to the actual combat algorithm, ships work a bit differently, as there is no combat power or amount of soldiers fíghting to consider, but instead ships have an amount of cannons and hull size. Cannons are the offensive value, and hull size the defensive.

Types of Ships
There are four different categories of ships, Heavy Ships, Light Ships, Galleys and Transports. In each category there are at least one ship in each age that can be researched, but there are also many unique ships that can be built. There is no real restriction on what roles different ships can perform, but a Transport is not the best at blockading, and a Light Ship may not be ideal for transporting a lot of soldiers.

Each type of ship differs on how many trained sailors they need for their crew, how many cannons they can have, and more.

You can also raise ships as levies from your population, but those are usually best suited to transport armies shorter distances, and should not be relied upon in a sea battle.

View attachment 1172616
WiP UI, but here is a unique galley for Aragon... 2 more guns, 1 more hull, but need 30 more sailors. And there’s also an Early Iberian Caravel, which all the Iberian countries may build.

Stay tuned, as next week we will talk about how colonization works.
Will sailor attrition also be traced back to reduce population in a similar way as land attrition?
 
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Why aren’t there flagships? It was fun collecting enemy flagships. Plus it added a bit if role-play. You dont have to give them unique bonuses, but at least make events around them.
 
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Hi,

This will probably be answered in next weeks TT, but how will Martime Presence work with Colonies, particular during early colonisation phases where no European power has any signficant port infastructure in Africa / Asia or the New World?

Will there be a horrendously expensive way to ship vital goods to the colonies from our home markets prior to the establishment of signfciant infrastructure in these regions or will they naturally have some form of market access related to their overlord?

On Blockades, will there be varying ways to alliviate some of the imapacts of a blockade i.e. sending trade / supplies overland if I control locations/ provinces adjacent inland top the blockaded province and will there be a building equivalent to EU4's naval defence batteries that might help nations resist naval blockade or at least make it costly to the attacker - perhaps in later era's when cannon become more effective?
This said Sultan Mehmet managed to contruct the Rumelihisarı 'Throat Cutter' Fortress in 1452 in order to block navel resupply to Constantinople using cannon on the Bosphorus,.

Will we be able to use our navies, forts and naval infrastructure to infleunce the flow of trade in markets?

Furthermore, Johan I respect you didn't like the Flagship mechanics in EU4, though I personally enjoyed sinking enemy flagships or collecting them through boarding. Could amass quite a collection by the end of a campaign. Whilst you've replied to the question about flagships above stating admirals are like ghosts inhabiting an entire fleet, much like generals have a ghostly command over entire armies - would you consider assigning leaders to a unit to act as de facto flagships or honour gaurds in armies - which could then be killed or captured and swing individual battles. I feel this could add a somehwat random element to battles that could have the potential for great narrative moments.

Imagine your losing a potentialy decisive naval or land battle but as the last few ticks wind down your troops - through rolling almost impossibly well as the enemy roll disastrously low - kill the enemy commander or sink their 'flagship' , shattering enemy morale and cinching a desperate victory. With rare occasions where, in a similar way to CK3 when you capture an enemy ruler in battle, it turns the tide of an otherwise lost war.

Final question, will high Maritime Presence have an amplifying effect on disease spread? There is a suggestion out there that the plauge spread to the Italian states in Europe through rats on ships travelling in Genoese ports trading on the Med and the Black Sea. Which is also how it got to England and many other island nations. Obviously you might not want to destroy all your port infrastructure as England to turtle up and avoid the plauge, but if we we're mad, could we?
 
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Will a system of customization and upgrades be considered? like the one in HOI4. And I mean for all types of units not just naval.

It can be a at launch or even later on in time if it has potential to be implemented.
 

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I know there's a lot of them but could we have a list of the locations with max harbor suitability? Or at least a list of those in Tinto Maps we have seen so far
 
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