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Tinto Talks #24 - 7th of August 2024

Welcome to another Tinto Talks, the Happy Wednesday where we spill the secrets about our entirely super secret, nobody will ever guess its name, game, which we refer to as Project Caesar.

Today we will delve into a lot of naval related aspects, when we talk about everything from Maritime Presence to Naval Combat.

Importance of Maritime Presence
First of all, we need to get back to the importance of maritime presence and naval capacity in Project Caesar. Before you can get advanced road networks through your country, your proximity propagation is much faster through places where you have maritime presence. Any seazone where you have no maritime presence OR a location without any road network costs about 40 ‘proximity’ to traverse through, which basically means you can not propagate any control more than 3 locations away. Of course, there are things that impact your proximity costs per location, like topography, vegetation, development and societal values as well.

proximity_map.png

The heartland has some access, but the coasts are the most important to us..

For a coastal seazone, if you have 100% maritime presence, the base cost is 5 per location. If you have less than 100% maritime presence it will scale the price accordingly. So at 33% maritime presence, and you have no other modifiers, it would cost 0.33*5 + 0.67*40, i.e. about 28.45.

Lakes and Major Rivers are always considered to be 100% maritime presence sea zones for proximity calculations and market access calculations.

proximity_kalmar.png

Why is the seazone outside Stockholm called 'Trälhavet'?

As you can see here, tracing the proximity out from Kalmar to the seazone of Kalmar Sund is a bit costly, as going from land to sea through a port has a higher base cost. This is severely reduced by the infrastructure and development you have built up in that location, as well as the natural harbor attributes that location has.

Natural Harbors
This is something new for this game that we have not done before. With so many locations, and such granularity, and mechanics emphasizing a deeper simulation, we had to start treating places differently, as there is a reason why certain places on the map are better suited as ports than others. This also explains why certain locations grew to be important places in history over others.

map_of_harbors.png

The brighter the green the better the harbor can be..

Of course, you can improve the harbor suitability of a location by building certain infrastructure, so even if the location you want to build up lacks the natural benefits, it can still be built up, even if it is more costly to do so as well.

The Harbor Suitability of a location has a significant impact on the trade and proximity calculations, and also impacts how quickly armies can be loaded or unloaded from the location.

bristol_useful.png

Bristol has its uses. The main question though, Rovers or City?


Shipbuilding
One of the disadvantages of playing a naval nation, in other games we’ve made, was the simple fact that unless you had a large coastline you could not compete, no matter how good the coastal locations you had were. One of the reasons was the simple fact that you could only build a ship at a time, and if you wanted to recruit a regiment, you couldn’t.

In Project Caesar this has changed, first of all, there are three different construction queues in a location. First there is the civil one for buildings, RGO’s, and all other non-military oriented things you can do in a location. Secondly we have the army based queue, and finally, we have the naval based queue, so you can recruit regiments at the same time that you build ships in a location.

We also added the concept of parallel ship building in a location, where buildings can unlock additional shipbuilding slots in a location, where at the end of the game you can build close to twenty ships at the same time in the same shipyard, with all the related advances and other stuff unlocked.


venetian_arsenal.png

This is a unique building that Venice has in its capital that increases the parallel capacity of shipbuilding by 4.


Blockades
One of the most powerful abilities that you can do during a war is blockading another nation's coast. The immediate impact is a reduction of food production, maximum control and making trades being more costly and likely to reroute. There is also the fact that development growth is severely slowed, the decline of prosperity and a dramatic reduction of your maritime presence.

As some say, an image tells you more than 1,000 words, we’ll use a few screenshots of tooltips related to blockades to make it a bit more clear.


blockade_tt.png

This can’t be all bad right?

Even with only a single port fully blockaded, the maritime presence in the seazone is severely impacted, and will take many months to recover, unless you got coastal forts or navies patrolling it for a long time after a war.

maritime_change.png

I do love the adjective for Holland..

Not all ships are great at blockading, as you most likely want to have Heavy Ships and/or Light Ships to do the blockading.

blockade_capacity.png

This type of hulk doesn’t smash…

Not all locations are equal, and different populations, infrastructure and development increases how much ships are required to blockade a location.

blockade_required.png

There are about 32,000 people living in this nice rural settlement..

Ships Repairing
Every month that a fleet is in a seazone that is not adjacent to a friendly port they will start taking attrition. This attrition is increased dramatically if the fleet is outside the naval range. This attrition creates a chance for ships to be damaged. While usually you can only repair a ship in a port, there are advances in some ages that allows you to repair your ships in coastal sea zones, where at the Age of Revolutions you can repair a ship up to 50% efficiency without going back to a port.

Naval Range is calculated from every core port that you own, or is owned by one of your subjects, or owned by someone you have negotiated fleet basing rights with.

venice_naval_range.png

Can we control the entire mediterranean sea as Venice?

Transporting Troops
Ships in Project Caesar all have the capacity to transport regiments. The transport capacity of a ship is not measured in regiments but in the amount of men it can carry. Usually the transport ships are far better at carrying regiments, but other types of ships can carry some as well.

We also have automated transportation, similar to eu4, to make moving armies around the world less painful.

Combat
In a naval battle there is no separate bombardment phase, as most ships have guns, and they tend to want to use them constantly. Otherwise, it works similar to land combat, in that you have different sections, but the individual ships you have will fire upon each other.

But while it comes to the actual combat algorithm, ships work a bit differently, as there is no combat power or amount of soldiers fíghting to consider, but instead ships have an amount of cannons and hull size. Cannons are the offensive value, and hull size the defensive.

Types of Ships
There are four different categories of ships, Heavy Ships, Light Ships, Galleys and Transports. In each category there are at least one ship in each age that can be researched, but there are also many unique ships that can be built. There is no real restriction on what roles different ships can perform, but a Transport is not the best at blockading, and a Light Ship may not be ideal for transporting a lot of soldiers.

Each type of ship differs on how many trained sailors they need for their crew, how many cannons they can have, and more.

You can also raise ships as levies from your population, but those are usually best suited to transport armies shorter distances, and should not be relied upon in a sea battle.

ships_builder.png

WiP UI, but here is a unique galley for Aragon... 2 more guns, 1 more hull, but need 30 more sailors. And there’s also an Early Iberian Caravel, which all the Iberian countries may build.

Stay tuned, as next week we will talk about how colonization works.
 
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Some of the natural harbor classifications are unexpected.

Bruges and Emden have already been noted by others. Hamburg losing to Harburg is also weird.

But I do miss Wismar being noticeably better than its neighboring locations Grevesmühlen and Doberan. It has a shielded bay and actually was an important harbor. It is not a 100% harbor, but a decent one.

Bremen is also oddly classified as a bad harbor, even though it was great one due to its protected location. Bremerhaven and Wilhelmshaven only became notable in the 19th century, when different conditions and technical abilities shifted the weights (deeper water, options to dredge out basins)

Is there no good harbor in Denmark between Schleswig and Århus ? Flensburg and Kolding probably are at least decent.


Also, why is hostile disembarkment time reduced in better harbors? I get the modifier for natural harbors somewhat, but your wharf will not help your enemies disembark, they still need to take the city to actually use that one. Harbors are protected by the city they belong to.
 
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Types of Ships
There are four different categories of ships, Heavy Ships, Light Ships, Galleys and Transports. In each category there are at least one ship in each age that can be researched, but there are also many unique ships that can be built. There is no real restriction on what roles different ships can perform, but a Transport is not the best at blockading, and a Light Ship may not be ideal for transporting a lot of soldiers.

You can also raise ships as levies from your population, but those are usually best suited to transport armies shorter distances, and should not be relied upon in a sea battle.
Cool, that means player is strongly disincentivized to maintain transport fleets for wartime, since he can levy the merchant fleet. I hope the levy is not 0/1 thing per region, but rather that you can levy specific amount of ships from the merchants.
 
I have questions on two mechanics you mentioned:
1) For special buildings, will these be locked to the tag, culture, location or something else? Could, for example, an Austria thats united Germany build the Brandenburg Gate in Vienna just cause they own Berlin as the historical location?
2) Does blockading have an impact on which market a location belongs to? If you blockade a location that only belongs to a market because of sea lanes, does it temporarily switch to an inland market? If so, is that impact (and also the blockade being stopped) immediate or does it take some time for a location to reconsider where it does trade?
 
Wouldn't it make more sense to reduce attrition at sea (which had changed dramatically by the late 18th century) and increase reliance on harbours in the later ages? You might have brought a 400-ton ship from the 16th century ashore on some island and implemented repairs, with a 2,000-ton Two-decker this would have been virtually impossible. Conversely, attrition of both ships and men was severely reduced by the introduction of copper sheathing and citrus fruit.
 
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We are still deciding what we want to do with canals like this.
The Canal of the Pharaohs would be a fantastic addition. The canal was originally built in antiquity so it could be realistically reconstructed in the game's timespan.

It would keep the end game interesting for Mediterranean powers and enable some very compelling campaigns.
 
Love to see how powerful Galicia is with its ports, first time I've seen the natural advantagea the Rias give its coast on a game!

A question, how does Maritime Presence exactly affect trade? Trade power on its market, trade capacity, neither, both...
 
Two questions

1. Will naval basing rights allow ships to repair in any coastal zone, even if the coast owner's tech is far below that of the repairing ship's nation?

2. Would it be more accurate to call Harbour Suitability instead Harbour Capacity? Harbour Suitability sounds like suitability-to-build-a-harbour rather than the-harbours-suitability-to-do-harbour-stuff.
 
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Will the number of troops transported be realistic, or we will be able to transport 15000 levies (or something like 5000 as I think 15000 will be very uncommon in Europe at that time) with 15 transport ships to America in 1492 to invade the Aztecs ?
 
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Taking note of these, as it's kind of a recent feature that we added not so much time ago (and we needed this Tinto Talks to be released, TBH).
On that note, I noticed Nice is a better port than Genoa, is there a particular reason for that? Genoa was historically a more significant port and is one of the largest industrial ports on the Mediterranean today and Nice is just a collection of Marinas, so it seems backwards.
 
what about the colonial powers creating temporary ports or colonies. irl happened with colonial powers like Spain and Portugal. Historical examples; Spanish Santiago and Villa de la Vega, and Portuguese Terra Nova do Bacalhau.
 
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More ships in the seazone
More naval related buildings in the port,.
How will naval artillery function? will it be a single building with a fixed buff like in EU4 or you build able to build more or less? Will it's efficacy be directly tied to port suitability or will it have a separate/fixed value? and will you able to build multiple of buildings in locations/provinces generally, like in Vic, or just single buildings like EU4?
 
Taking note of these, as it's kind of a recent feature that we added not so much time ago (and we needed this Tinto Talks to be released, TBH).
Yeah it's awesome to see natural ports added, but there are a lot of odd choices, I have suggestions on ports that should be upgraded (Green), Upgraded A Lot (Blue) or Downgraded (red)

Starting of with the Adriatic:
Screenshot_20240807_153608_Samsung Internet.png

Major Upgrade:
Pola (huge port, important Venetian possesion, in socialist Yugoslavia one of the major shipbuilding centers od the world alongside Rijeka)
Bar (the most important port of Montenegro and neighboring Serbia, with the Belgrade-Bar railway being built specifically to connect to it)
Lezhe ( the location of Shengjin/Medua, a very important natural harbour that historically didn't live up to its potential - still, acquiring it was one of the chief political goals of Serbia in the late 19th and early 20th centuries)

Upgrade:
Rijeka (already a decent port, but should be better still - the chief port of Western Balkans since the 18th century)
Zadar (Major port from antiquity until today)
"Metković" (location should be Ploče, another important port, historically served Hum and Bosnia, and still the most important one for Bosnia, over their own Neum)
Kotor (another major port since antiquity, also includes numerous other small port cities. The Bay of Kotor offers incredible natural defenses almost unmatched outside of Norwegian fjords- the only reason I'm not calling for a Major Upgrade here is that very big ships struggle in it)
Durres (Major port since antiquity, Albania's most important one and major Venetian enclave)
Vlore (major port)
Corfu (one of Venice's most prized possessions, major port)
Bari (chief Adriatic port of Southern Italy)
Ancona (historically a maritime republic, one of Venice's key rivals in the Adriatic)

Downgrade:
Pazin (the town itself is not on the coast. The only port is Labin, which can't compare with Pola and Rijeka)
Kaseg (ports like Karlobag are simply not relevant, Lika is a mountainous region where most of the population lives inland)
Dubrovnik (I'm calling for a very small nerf here, but despite being a maritime republic, Ragusa isn't an amazing natural port, as is reflected in its decline since the fall of the Republic)
Berat and Gjirokaster (neither are coastal, and their coasts have no major ports or towns - Berat's especially was a malaria-ridden swamp. Other ports in Albania were far more important)
Not noted on the map, but Skadar could also be nerfed, as the city's natural ports are in Bar and Shengjin, in other locations

NW France (&Wales)

Screenshot_20240807_174953_Samsung Internet.png


Major Upgrade:
Most ports are well done here, but two of France's largest ports are missing- namely Lorient (founded in the 1600s in the Hennebont location and served as one of its chief New World ports) and Cherbourg ( the most important military port of northern France, key point of dispute between France and England, major transatlantic port)

Upgrade:
Other important port cities (though less so than the two above) are Vannes and Saint-Malo (home of the famous corsairs), which should also be buffed.

The Lisieux location includes Honfleur, a major port city and should also be buffed.

Another important port that developed late into the period is Saint Nazaire in Guerende - though the swamps around it prevent me from suggesting a Major Upgrade

Finally, Swansea has a long history as a port, the most important one in the heavily populated SE Wales.

North Sea
Screenshot_20240807_181835_Samsung Internet.png


Major Upgrade:
Hull (important port city and the Humber Estuary)

Calais and Dunkirk (important port cities, Calais had an important role as an English outpost while Dunkirk was a major French military port)
Brugges (important trade center and port, also contains Sluys, another major port)

Upgrade:
Hastings and Hythe are Cinque ports (and Hythe also includes Romney) and should be buffed to account for it. Yarmouth grew into a major shipping port and admiralty center, and Ipswich includes Felixstowe, one of the largest UK ports today.

The Belgian coast as a whole feels underrated here, Veurne and Oostende should see buffs as well, or at least the latter one.

Den Haag isn't a big port, but the location includes Delft - which was.
Den Helder is the home to the Dutch main naval base today - it could even see a Major Upgrade.
Kempen was a major city and port early in the period, I could see it warranting a buff.

It's odd to have Frisia have no natural ports at all, either Harlingen or Sneek/Stavoren should see a small buff.


Downgrade:

Geertruidenberg is far less important than other ports in Western Netherlands, it should definitely receive a small nerf despite the strategic location

The much more important nerf is the one to Sant Niklaas, which I truly don't understand why it got such a good port - Waasland is a poor, marshy region. It should be the worst of the Belgian sea locations

Balkan Black Sea:
Screenshot_20240807_154105_Samsung Internet.png

Varna and Burgas are the two most important ports in Bulgaria for most of the period, and are both naturally predisposed as such, they should receive buffs.

On the other hand, Dobruja always had less important ports, thus my suggestion to nerf Harsova and even Tulcea (despite the strategic importance of the Danube Delta - Chilia always utilized the location better). Were a Constata location to be added (as it really should), it should be a good natural port, while Pangalia also gets nerfed.

The Aegean:
Screenshot_20240807_194434_Gallery.png


Major Upgrade:
Methoni (Methoni, Koroni and Pylos/Navarino were all major Venetian outposts, and Pylos especially has a natural harbour used since antiquity)

Rhodes (obvious, Rhodes was a major naval power in its own right and it's harbour is legendary)

Samos and Chios (both important ports with huge navies, Chios also includes the wealthy islet of Psara, which once had hundreds of ships as the third biggest Greek fleet, before its destruction in the Greek revolution)

Ermioni and Damala ( while Ermioni is merely a decent port and Damala not one at all, they contain Hydra and Spetses and Poros respectively, the islands with the largest merchant fleets later in the period, which brought them significant wealth)

Upgrade:
Demetrias (Volos is one of the most important ports of modern Greece, and it's bay offers natural protection)

Patras (another strategically located major port - Nafpaktos can get a buff as well)

Kavala (important port city in a bay)

Ainos (important naval outpost)

A few other Aegean islands, most notably Naxos, could also get buffs given how important the sea is for them and how many good ports there are throughout the many islands.

Downgrade:
Stomio (should be Platamon anyways): no notable ports developed in Thessaly proper at any point from Antiquity until today, should be a terrible port

Turkish Black Sea:
Screenshot_20240807_154156_Samsung Internet.png


Sinope and Samsoun are easily the most important ports and cities here, and have been for centuries, they should be buffed compared to nearby locations.

Others:
Also, it feels silly to screenshot single locations, but Cartagena (the seat of the Spanish navy, their most important Mediterranean port and one of the two most important in the country alongside Ferrol) and Livorno (one of the most important Italian port cities since the 16th century) should both see Major Upgrades, that will also hopefully encourage their historical development. Montpellier or Melgueil could also receive a small buff, representing the port of Sete and the sea end of the future Canal de Midi.
 
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Their most important characteristics is that they transport armies better.
They should probably improve maritime presence faster than other ships too. So for a maritime power your fleet will be a mix of merchantmen (to transport troops and maintain maritime presence) light ships (for maximizing coverage and countering piracy), and heavy ships (for slugging it out in conventional wars).
 
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This looks like a huge improvement over navies in EU4, great to see! I have some questions (apologies if any of these have been answered already!)

1. Regarding Hulks specifically: hulks were old ships that were deemed no longer fit for service at sea, and were typically either completely dismasted or fitted with much smaller masts for training purposes, and were not intended to put to sea again under their own power (sometimes they were towed to a different port). They were used in harbours for a variety of purposes - store depots; receiving ships for newly pressed sailors so they couldn't escape until being assigned to an active service ship; prisons for captured enemy combatants (both sailors and soldiers); they were never used in combat, being either totally or almost totally disarmed (with the exception of those hulks fitted as 'blockships', which were simply floating batteries used for harbour defence - they would never leave harbour), so why are we seeing them in these tooltips? And how are they obtained? No one built a hulk, but they were a way of reusing an old or captured ship that couldn't be used in an active way... This has been answered by others - I'm forgetting about the medieval Hulk or Holk, a transport ship.

2. In EU4, "two-deckers" and "three-deckers" were presented as technological upgrades over one another, which is a nonsense. In reality, ships of two and three decks were developed in parallel and continued being the main part of battle fleets (primarily two deckers as three deckers were hugely expensive), right from at leas the early 1600s through to beyond the end of the game period. Has this been changed to allow more realistic naval compositions in totally not EU5? See my suggested progression for two types of Heavy Ship that ideally would be buildable at the same time at the end of this post.

3. What automations are there for fleets? An 'ideal' way I have envisaged for fleets to operate would be along these lines: each Fleet you create must have a Home Port assigned (default can be where the first ship was built but it must be something you can set to another location). It would be good if fleets could be split into Squadrons, with each squadron retaining it's association with the mother fleet, but perhaps requiring a Commodore to command. These squadrons could then be given Blockade orders, etc (sometimes entire fleets would perform the blockading, but it was also common to detach a smaller squadron to do this and keep the main part of the fleet in harbour nearby to preserve it for battle, if needed). One automation action could then be to allow for damaged ships to automatically detach from the fleet or squadron and return to their home port (provided it is within some hard-coded range to keep it realistic and prevent sinking due to attrition en-route) for repairs, and to automatically rejoin the fleet/squadron once repairs are completed. This would obviously place them at increased risk for opportunistic enemies whilst en-route, but this is realistic too.

4. Do ships on Blockade take more attrition than normal? They should. Blockade duty, especially in British Napoleonic War fashion was brutal on ships. They were required to keep the sea in all weathers, for extended periods of time. The frigates assigned to close blockade duty were often in constant danger of being driven onto rocks (especially on the Brest blockade), but even for the larger ships further out it was gruelling work. Ships needed to be rotated out frequently for repairs.

5. Is morale of the sailors modelled? If so, blockade duty should gradually reduce it (although to some floor value, not to zero). It was monotonous work, often in very unpleasant conditions.


Naval history is very much my thing, and so I am very keen to see the naval gameplay be as realistic and engaging as possible in not EU5.

Mixed fleets were essential - mainly 2-deckers providing the bulk of the firepower, a small number (often only one, sometimes none!) of 3-deckers providing the heavy punch and to serve as flagship, and several frigates and smaller vessels for scouting and other duties (they would not normally take an active part in a fleet battle).



If you want some info on realistic progressions of Heavy Ships for advancements, you could do worse than to introduce/modify ships along these lines:

The Ship of the Line as a distinct concept was introduced around the 1660s. Ships with multiple decks existed before this time however, but it was only around the 1660s that the tactics to make best use of them were developed, the line of battle. Throughout the period from then to the end of the Napoleonic Wars, the Third Rates and their equivalents (2-deckers) in other navies were the mainstay of the fleets, and the First Rates and their equivalents (3-deckers) were the Prestige Ships and heavy hitters, so always few in number (another reason I disliked how they were presented in EU4, as you ended up with fleets of nothing BUT 3-deckers!!!! crazy).

1660s
64-gun 2-deckers (general qualities of 2-deckers: moderate speed (12-13 knots at best), large number of men (~600/700), expensive)
100-gun 3-deckers (general qualities of 3-deckers: slow speed (10-12 knots at best), largest number of men (~1000), very expensive both to build and operate)

1700s
70-gun 2-deckers

1770s
74-gun 2-deckers

1790s
80-gun 2-deckers
110-gun 3-deckers

1810s
120-gun 3-deckers

1830s
90-gun 2-deckers
130-gun 3-deckers


Some extra ideas based on the above: both the Squadrons and Close Blockades could be locked behind advancements. Squadrons should probably be available from around the 1700s, reflecting the need for better naval administration and command and control of multiple ships, that took time to develop. Close Blockades would be historically most appropriate from around the 1780s onwards, and were a British trait primarily. If blockades as currently in the game don't cause ships to take attrition, the Close Blockade absolutely should, and should probably also have a minimum requirement for the number of ships in the fleet/squadron to be able to maintain the blockade. But the tradeoff would be that it is more effective than a regular blockade. Historically the Close Blockade doctrine the British applied against France was crippling for their maritime trade, but it came at great expense in ships and men to maintain it.
 
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