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Tinto Talks #24 - 7th of August 2024

Welcome to another Tinto Talks, the Happy Wednesday where we spill the secrets about our entirely super secret, nobody will ever guess its name, game, which we refer to as Project Caesar.

Today we will delve into a lot of naval related aspects, when we talk about everything from Maritime Presence to Naval Combat.

Importance of Maritime Presence
First of all, we need to get back to the importance of maritime presence and naval capacity in Project Caesar. Before you can get advanced road networks through your country, your proximity propagation is much faster through places where you have maritime presence. Any seazone where you have no maritime presence OR a location without any road network costs about 40 ‘proximity’ to traverse through, which basically means you can not propagate any control more than 3 locations away. Of course, there are things that impact your proximity costs per location, like topography, vegetation, development and societal values as well.

proximity_map.png

The heartland has some access, but the coasts are the most important to us..

For a coastal seazone, if you have 100% maritime presence, the base cost is 5 per location. If you have less than 100% maritime presence it will scale the price accordingly. So at 33% maritime presence, and you have no other modifiers, it would cost 0.33*5 + 0.67*40, i.e. about 28.45.

Lakes and Major Rivers are always considered to be 100% maritime presence sea zones for proximity calculations and market access calculations.

proximity_kalmar.png

Why is the seazone outside Stockholm called 'Trälhavet'?

As you can see here, tracing the proximity out from Kalmar to the seazone of Kalmar Sund is a bit costly, as going from land to sea through a port has a higher base cost. This is severely reduced by the infrastructure and development you have built up in that location, as well as the natural harbor attributes that location has.

Natural Harbors
This is something new for this game that we have not done before. With so many locations, and such granularity, and mechanics emphasizing a deeper simulation, we had to start treating places differently, as there is a reason why certain places on the map are better suited as ports than others. This also explains why certain locations grew to be important places in history over others.

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The brighter the green the better the harbor can be..

Of course, you can improve the harbor suitability of a location by building certain infrastructure, so even if the location you want to build up lacks the natural benefits, it can still be built up, even if it is more costly to do so as well.

The Harbor Suitability of a location has a significant impact on the trade and proximity calculations, and also impacts how quickly armies can be loaded or unloaded from the location.

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Bristol has its uses. The main question though, Rovers or City?


Shipbuilding
One of the disadvantages of playing a naval nation, in other games we’ve made, was the simple fact that unless you had a large coastline you could not compete, no matter how good the coastal locations you had were. One of the reasons was the simple fact that you could only build a ship at a time, and if you wanted to recruit a regiment, you couldn’t.

In Project Caesar this has changed, first of all, there are three different construction queues in a location. First there is the civil one for buildings, RGO’s, and all other non-military oriented things you can do in a location. Secondly we have the army based queue, and finally, we have the naval based queue, so you can recruit regiments at the same time that you build ships in a location.

We also added the concept of parallel ship building in a location, where buildings can unlock additional shipbuilding slots in a location, where at the end of the game you can build close to twenty ships at the same time in the same shipyard, with all the related advances and other stuff unlocked.


venetian_arsenal.png

This is a unique building that Venice has in its capital that increases the parallel capacity of shipbuilding by 4.


Blockades
One of the most powerful abilities that you can do during a war is blockading another nation's coast. The immediate impact is a reduction of food production, maximum control and making trades being more costly and likely to reroute. There is also the fact that development growth is severely slowed, the decline of prosperity and a dramatic reduction of your maritime presence.

As some say, an image tells you more than 1,000 words, we’ll use a few screenshots of tooltips related to blockades to make it a bit more clear.


blockade_tt.png

This can’t be all bad right?

Even with only a single port fully blockaded, the maritime presence in the seazone is severely impacted, and will take many months to recover, unless you got coastal forts or navies patrolling it for a long time after a war.

maritime_change.png

I do love the adjective for Holland..

Not all ships are great at blockading, as you most likely want to have Heavy Ships and/or Light Ships to do the blockading.

blockade_capacity.png

This type of hulk doesn’t smash…

Not all locations are equal, and different populations, infrastructure and development increases how much ships are required to blockade a location.

blockade_required.png

There are about 32,000 people living in this nice rural settlement..

Ships Repairing
Every month that a fleet is in a seazone that is not adjacent to a friendly port they will start taking attrition. This attrition is increased dramatically if the fleet is outside the naval range. This attrition creates a chance for ships to be damaged. While usually you can only repair a ship in a port, there are advances in some ages that allows you to repair your ships in coastal sea zones, where at the Age of Revolutions you can repair a ship up to 50% efficiency without going back to a port.

Naval Range is calculated from every core port that you own, or is owned by one of your subjects, or owned by someone you have negotiated fleet basing rights with.

venice_naval_range.png

Can we control the entire mediterranean sea as Venice?

Transporting Troops
Ships in Project Caesar all have the capacity to transport regiments. The transport capacity of a ship is not measured in regiments but in the amount of men it can carry. Usually the transport ships are far better at carrying regiments, but other types of ships can carry some as well.

We also have automated transportation, similar to eu4, to make moving armies around the world less painful.

Combat
In a naval battle there is no separate bombardment phase, as most ships have guns, and they tend to want to use them constantly. Otherwise, it works similar to land combat, in that you have different sections, but the individual ships you have will fire upon each other.

But while it comes to the actual combat algorithm, ships work a bit differently, as there is no combat power or amount of soldiers fíghting to consider, but instead ships have an amount of cannons and hull size. Cannons are the offensive value, and hull size the defensive.

Types of Ships
There are four different categories of ships, Heavy Ships, Light Ships, Galleys and Transports. In each category there are at least one ship in each age that can be researched, but there are also many unique ships that can be built. There is no real restriction on what roles different ships can perform, but a Transport is not the best at blockading, and a Light Ship may not be ideal for transporting a lot of soldiers.

Each type of ship differs on how many trained sailors they need for their crew, how many cannons they can have, and more.

You can also raise ships as levies from your population, but those are usually best suited to transport armies shorter distances, and should not be relied upon in a sea battle.

ships_builder.png

WiP UI, but here is a unique galley for Aragon... 2 more guns, 1 more hull, but need 30 more sailors. And there’s also an Early Iberian Caravel, which all the Iberian countries may build.

Stay tuned, as next week we will talk about how colonization works.
 
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Transporting Troops
Ships in Project Caesar all have the capacity to transport regiments. The transport capacity of a ship is not measured in regiments but in the amount of men it can carry. Usually the transport ships are far better at carrying regiments, but other types of ships can carry some as well.

We also have automated transportation, similar to eu4, to make moving armies around the world less painful.
Will it be possible to tell a fleet not to transport troops? Also can we prevent fleets from merging?
 
Their most important characteristics is that they transport armies better.
But what does that represent from real life though? Which ships were built in history at this time that were specifically for transporting armies? And how were they a better option than the large ships of the line, which historically were capable of transporting the largest numbers of men for invasions due to their massive size. Even when considering the amount of space reserved for their crew, weapons, and supplies, they still had more space on board for transporting additional troops than any other ship built at the time.

Historically, countries did not build fleets simply to transport troops. They build regular ships that could not only transport the troops, but could then be used for other purposes once they've completed their transport task. For example, a normal fleet composed of ships of the lines and frigates would be used to transport an army to a location, and would then support that army with supplies, bombardment of coastal fortifications, and blockading ports, as well as with evacuation if needed. In EU4, it was really strange and unrealistic to have a massive transport fleet sitting around and being paid for, doing nothing but waiting for troops to need transporting.
 
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Whats the problem with eu4?
It works fine but it would be nice if the popup would also show how far the fleet is away from the troops it's trying to move because sometimes I accidentally call a fleet across the world. Also it's annoying that it triggers automatically when the game doesn't find a land route. So when trying to navigate enemy territory with lots of forts the popup comes up constantly.
 
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Will there be storms that destroy all your ships? Such storms were quite famous, the Spanish armada, the storm that sank the yuan fleet and many more. Would suck of course as a player to lose your fleet in a freak storm but would also be cool if they are somewhere accounted for.
 
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4. Do ships on Blockade take more attrition than normal? They should. Blockade duty, especially in British Napoleonic War fashion was brutal on ships. They were required to keep the sea in all weathers, for extended periods of time. The frigates assigned to close blockade duty were often in constant danger of being driven onto rocks (especially on the Brest blockade), but even for the larger ships further out it was gruelling work. Ships needed to be rotated out frequently for repairs.

5. Is morale of the sailors modelled? If so, blockade duty should gradually reduce it. It was monotonous work, often in very unpleasant conditions.
Sound like a really interesting trade-off, especially given that blockades have such devastating modifiers.
 
It's odd to have Frisia have no natural ports at all, either Harlingen or Sneek/Stavoren should see a small buff.
Harlingen and Dokkum are more relevant in this period being the home to the frisian admirality. Sneek is not a sea port, it's mostly a commerce port for flat bottom ships used on the frisian lakes, doesn't feel good for a port. Stavoren had long lost in relevance, it's on a decline. Hindeloopen and Workum I guess can justify it being a minor port as they are coastal zuiderzee ports.
 
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We've seen East Indiamen in another TT recently - I assume these are classified as Transport Ships then? (They were made to look like ships of the line, but carried only a few lighter cannon for self-defense and a much smaller crew).
 
Yes but I also referred to that, xebecs aren't galleys, they are lateen-rigged sailing ships. Besides, if the bonus is towards the ship-type, that means these ships could still inflict way too much damage to heavy ships in narrows. Galley development was a dead end at end of 16th century, it had nowhere to go.

It's also why corsairs in Mediterranean abandoned galleys more or less and switched to lighter sail ships, because their galleys could no longer challenge or board even the merchantmen of the era which could defensively inflict disproportionate casualties with much smaller crew.

It's honestly okay for the whole ship type to be obsolete (except coastal patrols against which was mentioned in this dev diary). There is no need to try to drag it on. Xebecs should be a light ship.
Galleys were very relevant in the wars between Russia and Sweden during the 18th century and got developed into ”archipelago frigates” or skärgårdsfregatt in swedish. Look up the russian galley fleet and the battle of Gangut and guess why Russia still today celebrate 7th of august…

With that said i really hope skärgårdsfregatt will be a special ship for Sweden and i hope Sveaborg will be recognized in PC somehow.
 
For a coastal seazone, if you have 100% maritime presence, the base cost is 5 per location. If you have less than 100% maritime presence it will scale the price accordingly. So at 33% maritime presence, and you have no other modifiers, it would cost 0.33*5 + 0.67*40, i.e. about 28.45.

Lakes and Major Rivers are always considered to be 100% maritime presence sea zones for proximity calculations and market access calculations.

Glad to see Lakes and Rivers getting some love.
 
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Here is a map of canals in England, as you can see, you can sail from Liverpool to London using only inland waterways. According to the London Canal Museum, the vast majority of these were built by the year 1800. Birmingham would never have become the city that it is today without canals, it's why it's known as the Little Venice. Perhaps canals are only really a feature of Britain, but they greatly impacted the ability to move goods at scale to ships and bring goods inland from ships. and powered the Industrial Revolution before the steam train.
Canal du Midi connected Toulouse to the Mediterranean in 1681, the Eider Canal was the predecessor to the Kiel Canal and was built in 1784, and both British North America and the early USA built a huge number of canals in the late 18th and early 19th century, although many of the American canals were built to connect rivers to each other instead of connecting to the sea directly.
 
Ribe in Denmark should be a WAY better harbour. First Ribe, directly after the timeframe Fanø and today Esbjerg all are in that location, each at points having hosted some of the biggest merchant fleets in denmark. It should not be close to the likes of Hamburg or København but it should be way a way better harbour than the surrounding locations.
 
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The immediate impact is a reduction of food production
Why though? Why would ships stop anyone from harvesting wheat or caring for the livestock?
That only makes sense for fish. On the other hand it should also stop the harvest of other sea based goods like pearls.
 
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Do you plan on adding special type of light ships Chaika used by Cossacks?
Cossacks were pretty skillful with Chaikas and achieved great victories especially in 1600-1620 years during Hetman Petro Konashevych-Sahaidachny reign.
Here is several their massive attacks, they attacked even Istanbul thus provoking Ottomans do declare war on PLC (Khotyn War)
Istanbul 1615
Istanbul 1620
Istanbull 1624
There were more but without english translations. like raids on castles ranging from Trabzon to Akkerman and taking them. Liberating slaves "yasyr" like Caffa 1616 (Modern Feodosia in Crimea ), they destroyed the Turkish fleet and captured Caffa after Amphibious warfare.
Chaikas were easy and fast to build so there was huge amount of them, they worked better near coast so they often "lured" enemy fleet like Ottoman one near Ochakiv, and then destroyed it.
 
But what does that represent from real life though? Which ships were built in history at this time that were specifically for transporting armies? And how were they a better option than the large ships of the line, which historically were capable of transporting the largest numbers of men for invasions due to their massive size. Even when considering the amount of space reserved for their crew, weapons, and supplies, they still had more space on board for transporting additional troops than any other ship built at the time.

Historically, countries did not build fleets simply to transport troops. They build regular ships that could not only transport the troops, but could then be used for other purposes once they've completed their transport task. For example, a normal fleet composed of ships of the lines and frigates would be used to transport an army to a location, and would then support that army with supplies, bombardment of coastal fortifications, and blockading ports, as well as with evacuation if needed. In EU4, it was really strange and unrealistic to have a massive transport fleet sitting around and being paid for, doing nothing but waiting for troops to need transporting.
If anything, the only ships used for transporting men without being military ships were merchant ships commandeered or hired for that purpose, and even then, a lot of those merchant ships would have been armed in a makeshift fashion as well
 
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If anything, the only ships used for transporting men without being military ships were merchant ships commandeered or hired for that purpose, and even then, a lot of those merchant ships would have been armed in a makeshift fashion as well
Yes, and that's already represented in the game with the ship levies. With all ships being able to transport troops, I just don't see the purpose of having dedicated transport ships, especially considering it's not historical. So it's not realistic and isn't good gameplay, as who wants to build a bunch of ships that have no purpose most of the time, and thus why even have them?
 
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Since Venice received a special port building, I would like to propose the Gdańsk Crane as a special building for Gdańsk.

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Source: article from Wikipedia Brama Żuraw w Gdańsku


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The above source translated with Google Translator
 
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This looks great. I hope the importance of rivers continues to be a focus; if I'm Hungary and own the headwaters of the Danube all the way down to the Black Sea, that should give me a lot of trading strength.

The ship changes also sound nice, I like the simplified combat with modifiers. I will add that I hope the existing eu4 piracy mechanics are re-thought as well. For one, I hope the difference between protecting trade and hunting pirates goes away. There's no reason that my light trading ships are protecting trade routes but aren't fighting pirates unless I explicitly tell them to do that.
 
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