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Tinto Talks #24 - 7th of August 2024

Welcome to another Tinto Talks, the Happy Wednesday where we spill the secrets about our entirely super secret, nobody will ever guess its name, game, which we refer to as Project Caesar.

Today we will delve into a lot of naval related aspects, when we talk about everything from Maritime Presence to Naval Combat.

Importance of Maritime Presence
First of all, we need to get back to the importance of maritime presence and naval capacity in Project Caesar. Before you can get advanced road networks through your country, your proximity propagation is much faster through places where you have maritime presence. Any seazone where you have no maritime presence OR a location without any road network costs about 40 ‘proximity’ to traverse through, which basically means you can not propagate any control more than 3 locations away. Of course, there are things that impact your proximity costs per location, like topography, vegetation, development and societal values as well.

proximity_map.png

The heartland has some access, but the coasts are the most important to us..

For a coastal seazone, if you have 100% maritime presence, the base cost is 5 per location. If you have less than 100% maritime presence it will scale the price accordingly. So at 33% maritime presence, and you have no other modifiers, it would cost 0.33*5 + 0.67*40, i.e. about 28.45.

Lakes and Major Rivers are always considered to be 100% maritime presence sea zones for proximity calculations and market access calculations.

proximity_kalmar.png

Why is the seazone outside Stockholm called 'Trälhavet'?

As you can see here, tracing the proximity out from Kalmar to the seazone of Kalmar Sund is a bit costly, as going from land to sea through a port has a higher base cost. This is severely reduced by the infrastructure and development you have built up in that location, as well as the natural harbor attributes that location has.

Natural Harbors
This is something new for this game that we have not done before. With so many locations, and such granularity, and mechanics emphasizing a deeper simulation, we had to start treating places differently, as there is a reason why certain places on the map are better suited as ports than others. This also explains why certain locations grew to be important places in history over others.

map_of_harbors.png

The brighter the green the better the harbor can be..

Of course, you can improve the harbor suitability of a location by building certain infrastructure, so even if the location you want to build up lacks the natural benefits, it can still be built up, even if it is more costly to do so as well.

The Harbor Suitability of a location has a significant impact on the trade and proximity calculations, and also impacts how quickly armies can be loaded or unloaded from the location.

bristol_useful.png

Bristol has its uses. The main question though, Rovers or City?


Shipbuilding
One of the disadvantages of playing a naval nation, in other games we’ve made, was the simple fact that unless you had a large coastline you could not compete, no matter how good the coastal locations you had were. One of the reasons was the simple fact that you could only build a ship at a time, and if you wanted to recruit a regiment, you couldn’t.

In Project Caesar this has changed, first of all, there are three different construction queues in a location. First there is the civil one for buildings, RGO’s, and all other non-military oriented things you can do in a location. Secondly we have the army based queue, and finally, we have the naval based queue, so you can recruit regiments at the same time that you build ships in a location.

We also added the concept of parallel ship building in a location, where buildings can unlock additional shipbuilding slots in a location, where at the end of the game you can build close to twenty ships at the same time in the same shipyard, with all the related advances and other stuff unlocked.


venetian_arsenal.png

This is a unique building that Venice has in its capital that increases the parallel capacity of shipbuilding by 4.


Blockades
One of the most powerful abilities that you can do during a war is blockading another nation's coast. The immediate impact is a reduction of food production, maximum control and making trades being more costly and likely to reroute. There is also the fact that development growth is severely slowed, the decline of prosperity and a dramatic reduction of your maritime presence.

As some say, an image tells you more than 1,000 words, we’ll use a few screenshots of tooltips related to blockades to make it a bit more clear.


blockade_tt.png

This can’t be all bad right?

Even with only a single port fully blockaded, the maritime presence in the seazone is severely impacted, and will take many months to recover, unless you got coastal forts or navies patrolling it for a long time after a war.

maritime_change.png

I do love the adjective for Holland..

Not all ships are great at blockading, as you most likely want to have Heavy Ships and/or Light Ships to do the blockading.

blockade_capacity.png

This type of hulk doesn’t smash…

Not all locations are equal, and different populations, infrastructure and development increases how much ships are required to blockade a location.

blockade_required.png

There are about 32,000 people living in this nice rural settlement..

Ships Repairing
Every month that a fleet is in a seazone that is not adjacent to a friendly port they will start taking attrition. This attrition is increased dramatically if the fleet is outside the naval range. This attrition creates a chance for ships to be damaged. While usually you can only repair a ship in a port, there are advances in some ages that allows you to repair your ships in coastal sea zones, where at the Age of Revolutions you can repair a ship up to 50% efficiency without going back to a port.

Naval Range is calculated from every core port that you own, or is owned by one of your subjects, or owned by someone you have negotiated fleet basing rights with.

venice_naval_range.png

Can we control the entire mediterranean sea as Venice?

Transporting Troops
Ships in Project Caesar all have the capacity to transport regiments. The transport capacity of a ship is not measured in regiments but in the amount of men it can carry. Usually the transport ships are far better at carrying regiments, but other types of ships can carry some as well.

We also have automated transportation, similar to eu4, to make moving armies around the world less painful.

Combat
In a naval battle there is no separate bombardment phase, as most ships have guns, and they tend to want to use them constantly. Otherwise, it works similar to land combat, in that you have different sections, but the individual ships you have will fire upon each other.

But while it comes to the actual combat algorithm, ships work a bit differently, as there is no combat power or amount of soldiers fíghting to consider, but instead ships have an amount of cannons and hull size. Cannons are the offensive value, and hull size the defensive.

Types of Ships
There are four different categories of ships, Heavy Ships, Light Ships, Galleys and Transports. In each category there are at least one ship in each age that can be researched, but there are also many unique ships that can be built. There is no real restriction on what roles different ships can perform, but a Transport is not the best at blockading, and a Light Ship may not be ideal for transporting a lot of soldiers.

Each type of ship differs on how many trained sailors they need for their crew, how many cannons they can have, and more.

You can also raise ships as levies from your population, but those are usually best suited to transport armies shorter distances, and should not be relied upon in a sea battle.

ships_builder.png

WiP UI, but here is a unique galley for Aragon... 2 more guns, 1 more hull, but need 30 more sailors. And there’s also an Early Iberian Caravel, which all the Iberian countries may build.

Stay tuned, as next week we will talk about how colonization works.
 
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Will a nation be able to order ships from another nation? Please Venice build me 10 galleys for money? Or ~ probably easier to code ~ request to buy them (not only being able to sell them as in EU4)?
 
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It's so nice to see that natural harbours are so well implemented. There's also a lot of good feedback on them in this thread. Are there some interesting events related to the (prolonged) blockade of major trade ports? I see the negative prosperity modifier, but I'm not sure about the implications of that. Does this mean there will be a migration to adjacent trade ports? Let's say the spanish were to interfere in the low countries, would there be migration from a blockaded port of Antwerp to an unblockaded port of Amsterdam?
 
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Thanks for the detailed feedback!

And, in general, to all the other posts regarding natural harbors; as I said yesterday, we're taking note of them.
sorry to ask this, but what makes a natural harbour less / more great? Naples looks like top notch, yet its location isn't that great per se compared to something like Gaeta. At least costal wise. Or why there's such a big difference between Genoa and Nice, even though they both had circular - ish harbours that protected ships from storms?

Like, I'm trying to understand on what criterias we should make suggestions (given that we're talking about natural harbours, not the most populated ones)
 
sorry to ask this, but what makes a natural harbour less / more great? Naples looks like top notch, yet its location isn't that great per se compared to something like Gaeta. At least costal wise. Or why there's such a big difference between Genoa and Nice, even though they both had circular - ish harbours that protected ships from storms?

Like, I'm trying to understand on what criterias we should make suggestions (given that we're talking about natural harbours, not the most populated ones)
The intent for the game must surely be to represent the "best" or "most significant" harbours during the time period, in the most general sense. Despite the name 'natural harbour', its much better for historic simulation reasons if it also reflects other aspects, not just topography, but also maritime culture, existing infrastructure, connectivity to inland transport routes and so forth.
 
For Ireland specifically, there should be natural harbours in Dublin and in the south East, around Waterford or wexford. Historically British/Norman rule were centered in these two regions.
 
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In the army dev diary it was stated that there was no magical fireball button for sieges. Will there be a naval artillery button, or maybe even naval assisted assault button? Furthermore, is it possible to “demolish” coastal settlements/buildings with naval battery?
 
Are naval battle gonna be more decisive in P.C. with less chance of ships surviving an engagement on high seas than other games since historically naval battles have always beem more "winner takes all" than land battles?

We do have mechanics for ship captures, and yes, ships more likely to sink if damaged on high seas is a good suggestion, especially when fleeing a battle.
 
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@Pavía just to add to this:
Would it be possible to include natural harbours in Map Feedback posts as well? I can spot a bunch of places in that screenshot of Europe you posted that should have better natural harbours than depicted.

EDIT: for example, Trieste, Pula and Rijeka were always pretty good ports


connected to my previous post in Germany Feedback
3. Koper / Capo d'Istria - as its name at the time suggests (Capo d'Istria) the capital of Istria I argue that the 5th largest Slovenian town and its most significant port should be its own location. Koper was granted town rights in 1035 and was part of the Republic of Venice from 1278 to 1797. Koper was the major port on the north-eastern Adriatic until 1719, when Trieste was designated a free port by the Habsburgs. Koper even had a census before (8.000) and after the plague (1.800) giving us a rough estimate for its starting population. This location would also represent the trifecta of Slovenian coastal towns (Piran, Izola, and Koper), all of which were towns ruled by the Republic of Venice. For this reason, I would set the starting population of Koper to 10.000 and set it to urban. I would even argue it should be a trade center instead of Trieste, due to its bigger significance at the start of the game (and majority of the game-span).

Koper used to be an island and a very suitable natural harbor.

Koperisland.jpeg
 
For Ireland specifically, there should be natural harbours in Dublin and in the south East, around Waterford or wexford. Historically British/Norman rule were centered in these two regions.
For Waterford and Wexford, yes, those should probably be higher, but I wouldn't make Dublin too good. I don't have my sources handy at the moment, but Dublin was noted as not being a terribly good port compared to the ones in the south and west, but it was the largest city on the island so it was the capital.
 
The intent for the game must surely be to represent the "best" or "most significant" harbours during the time period, in the most general sense. Despite the name 'natural harbour', its much better for historic simulation reasons if it also reflects other aspects, not just topography, but also maritime culture, existing infrastructure, connectivity to inland transport routes and so forth.
but, why? It doesn't boost land connectivity, we have topography just to show that. Neither classifying them by "most significant" is really useful, as what harbours did develop was also a political choice and not just driven by topography. Same for about everything else you listed.

So I don't agree much that they should represent this, otherwise the ports would be each and every time a carbon copy of the ones in our world

which I don't like it too much
 
I hope there has to be a certain infrastructure in place before a location can build Ships of the Line. EU 4 is so silly in how you can build those advanced Man o’ War everywhere.

You need dock, wharfs, shipyards etc to build ships, so not every port can do it.

However, it was not hard to build up the infrastructure to build ships. Even a small fishing village like Skäggenäs had a wharf that in 1775 alone produced 8 ships for the Royal Navy, including 2 galiots.
 
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if I as Venice have two transport fleets, one in the red sea and the other in the med, and I have troops that I want to move from Jerusalem to Venice, unless I'm going to personally move the Venice transport fleet in the levant the system will automatically pic the red sea fleet as is the closest. Thus making it go around the entire continent of Africa.

Suboptimal yes, something we should avoid.
 
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View attachment 1172677
Didn't know Soviets had Man o' wars!

Either..


Its a nice neutral flag color we use in all the illustrations.

OR

Its always the Red Squadron of the Royal Navy using the late 16th century flag and refusing to swap to the modern Red Ensign.
 
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Can we please see port suitability in every Tinto maps from here on out, so we can give feedback on which locations should have highrer/lower port suitability? Also, it seems location modifiers are back with "Wharf" being one of the first ones we see, are we getting a Tinto Talk about location modifers and how they work, or are they going to be a footnote in the comments?

Sure, its up to @Pavía though
 
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So the transition from boarding focused ships with large castles, to the gunnery focused ships we all know from the age of sailed won’t be modeled? Bit unfortunate, though I suppose “cannons” are just abstracted offense values which attack abstracted defense values.

yeah, its a bit abstracted there.
 
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I don't see any special modifiers for open-sea vs inland sea. Will there be such a distinction in this game? Would be great to have that info available in the UI as opposed to the wiki.

Yeah, it can be scripted in individual ships..
 
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Shipbuilding

...We also added the concept of parallel ship building in a location, where buildings can unlock additional shipbuilding slots in a location, where at the end of the game you can build close to twenty ships at the same time in the same shipyard, with all the related advances and other stuff unlocked.

View attachment 1172610
This is a unique building that Venice has in its capital that increases the parallel capacity of shipbuilding by 4.
So, I’ve been thinking about how naval nations could get more love, especially in the context of the upcoming game (let's call it Project Caesar for now). We all know how Venice gets its cool Venetian Arsenal for shipbuilding, but what about Carthage?

They had an impressive naval tradition back in the day, and I think it would be awesome if we could see something similar for them in the game.

Here’s what I’m thinking: Proposed Implementations

1. Carthaginian Arsenal Rebuild:
If a player revives Carthage, they should totally get the option to rebuild the Carthaginian Arsenal. This could give a big boost to naval production, making it feel like you’re bringing back an ancient powerhouse.

2. Levantine Culture Integration:
For those who manage to integrate Levantine culture, why not unlock a unique shipbuilding facility? It could be similar to the Venetian Arsenal but with a twist that reflects Carthaginian influence.

3. Thalassocracy Bonus:
If a nation goes full thalassocracy (maritime supremacy), let them build an advanced naval facility that increases ship production and repair speed. It’s all about making the seas your domain!

4. Militarist Doctrine Unlock:
Maybe if you have a militarist government, you get a national decision to build a powerful shipyard. This could be a one-time bonus per campaign, adding some strategic depth.

5. Naval Academy:
Inspired by Total War, how about a naval academy as a unique building? It could train faster and more experienced crew, cutting down on ship recruitment times and boosting naval combat efficiency.

6. Strategic Resources Matter:
Like in Civ VI, if you control specific resources (special timber or iron?), you could unlock a unique naval facility that makes your ships tougher or quicker to produce.

7. Shipyard Specialization:
Borrowing from HoI IV, you could specialize your shipyards for different ship types—faster light ships or stronger heavy ships. This adds some nice customization options.

8. Historical Event Trigger:
Imagine controlling key Mediterranean territories triggers an event where you get the chance to rebuild Carthage’s shipyard. It’d be an investment, but the rewards could be huge.

9. Regional Naval Supremacy:
Inspired by Imperator: Rome, certain coastal regions could let you build shipyards that give you regional naval dominance, like faster ship production or better blockading abilities.

10. Cross-Cultural Influence:
If your nation blends Eastern and Western naval traditions (maybe Levantine and Greco-Roman), you could unlock hybrid shipyards that mix the best of both worlds—speed and strength.

11. War-Time Emergency Measures:
Taking a cue from Total War and Victoria, during a long war, you could overextend your shipyards for a temporary production boost, but it might hurt your long-term efficiency.

12. Mercenary Shipyards:
What if you could build a shipyard that specializes in hiring mercenary fleets? This would give you a quick naval boost when you’re in a tight spot, but they’d cost more and be less loyal.

13. Expeditionary Fleets:
Like in HoI IV, maybe you could focus on creating shipyards for expeditionary fleets, letting you build ships that travel further and faster—perfect for colonial ambitions.

14. Naval Traditions Development:
Similar to Imperator: Rome, how about a building that represents the development of naval traditions? Ships built here would get long-term combat bonuses.

15. Global Trade Network:
Inspired by Civ VI, if you establish a global trade network, you could unlock a world-class shipyard. This would not only boost ship production but also increase your trade income.

Let me know what you think! Would any of these ideas make naval play more exciting and historically immersive? Also, if you’ve got any tweaks or new ideas, I’d love to hear them.
 
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Where can we see the amount of troops each ship can transport?

In the Unit overview screen, and in tooltips for units and in..
 
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Suboptimal yes, something we should avoid.
you could do something like :

find all fleets that can do the transport in one trip (transport capacity ≥ army numbers), if no-one is present, calculate the time of which fleet can complete the transport faster between all fleets owned

else

calculate the time for the same thing but just between all the selected fleets, pick the one shorter time

or something like that, yeah
 
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