• We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.

Tinto Maps #14 - 9th of August 2024 - Western Africa

Hello, and welcome one more week to Tinto Maps, the day of the week for map nerds lovers! This week we will be taking a look at Western Africa! These lands were named historically in different ways, although probably the most widespread naming was Guinea, which also names the Gulf that makes for the southern limit of the region, with the Atlantic Ocean being to the west, the Sahara desert to the north, and the lands around Lake Chad making for the approximate eastern border.

With these regions, we’re also leaving the ‘Easy Mode Map-Making’ of Project Caesar, as getting comprehensive sources of information for 1337 for most of Sub-Saharan Africa is challenging, as the traditional historical record was oral, in contrast with the written records usual in Eurasia. In any case, we did our best to depict the rich history and geography of the region and its diversity, which is stunning. Let’s start, then!

Countries:
Countries.png

The most important country, and one of the world's great powers, is the Empire of Mali, which in 1337 is at its zenit, still ruled by the infamous Mansa Mūsā. It controls not only the core lands of the Mandé-speaking peoples, but also holds the overlordship over Jolof, most of the fertile Niger river basin, and some of the most important Saharan outposts. To its south-east, the Mossi are organized in several polities (Ougadagou, Gwiriko, Yatenga, Boussouma, Tenkodogo, and Liptako). South into the coast, Kong, Dagbon, Bonoman, and Mankessim are polities ruled by the Dyula, the Dagbani, and the Akan (the last two). To the east, Fada N’gourma, Borgu, and Mamprugu connect with the lands of the Hausa, which rule from several city-states: Kebbi, Gobir, Zafara, Katsina, Daura, Kano, Rano, and Zazzau. Further to the east, the Empire of Kanem rules the lands around Lake Chad from its capital in Njimi, and over some of the Saharan corridors, making it the region's second wealthiest country. And finally, further to the south, there are the lands of the Nupe, the Yoruba (Oyo, Ife, Ijebu, Owo), the Edo (Benin), and the Igbo (Nri).

Dynasties:
Dynasties.png

The dynasties of the region are a mix of well-known ones, such as the Keita of Mali, the Ndiaye of Jolof, or the Sayfawa of Kanem, and randomly generated ones for the rest of the polities, as we don’t have good enough sources on who was ruling over most of them in 1337.

Locations:
Locations.png

Locations 2.png

Locations 3.png

Locations 4.png
The locations of Western Africa. We’ve tried our best to find suitable locations, correct naming, etc., although I’m sure there might be plenty of feedback to apply.

Provinces:
Provinces.png


Areas:
Areas.png


Terrain:
Climate.png

Topography.png

Vegetation.png

This week we have proper Terrain mapmodes at the release of the Tinto Maps… Not much to say about them, though, as the climate and vegetation are pretty straightforward, being divided into Arid and Tropical; while the vegetation goes from desert and sparse beside the Sahara, to increasingly more forested terrain, until reaching the tropical jungles by the coast. The topography is not very fragmented, with the Guinean Highlands and the Adamawa Plateau being the most important landmarks.

Natural Harbors:
Harbors.png

A new map mode this week, coming from the latest Tinto Talks! There are some decent natural harbors in the region, with Banana Islands (where Freetown would be founded), Elmina, and Calabar being the best ones.

Cultures:
Cultures.png

A beautiful map this week… I may repeat that we tried our best to approach the region, taking into account that this was the first African region we completed, around 3 years ago. When we review it, we may add some more diversity, as we have now some more tools than the ones we had back in time, but we think that it’s way best to read your feedback first, to make sure we are on the same page.

Religions:
Religion.png

Take this map as very WIP. The Sunni-Animism division is kind of accurate, with the expected division for 1337 (Islam would later on advance more to the South, but we think this is the best for this date). What we have yet to do is to divide the ‘Animism’ population into some of the regional variants; we already have plenty of data, but we also want to read your feedback on this first.

Raw Materials:
Raw Materials.png

The goods of the region are quite diverse and very dependent on the geography. In the Saharan lands, there are plenty of locations with resources such as Salt, Copper, or Alum (regarding this resource, the lands to the north of Lake Chad make for the densest Alum hub in the world for 1337, something the historical sources talk about). Livestock is king in the Sahelian lands, while there are plenty of agricultural goods in the Niger river basin. The region is also full of luxury goods, of which Gold is the most relevant, as being the biggest supply of this metal to the Mediterranean and Europe in the Late Middle Ages, while also having others such as Ivory, Gems, or Spices (which in this region are portraying some goods such as kola nuts, or malagueta pepper). Finally, the coasts of the Gulf of Guinea have plenty of Fish. Maybe the only type of good that is not very abundant in the region is metals, as having some Iron, Tin, etc., but not much in comparison with other regions.

Markets:
Markets.png

Markets of the region, have an interesting distribution. The most important ones in 1337 are Niani, Kano, and Njimi, which are also connected to the Northern African markets, making it possible to get plenty of wealth by exporting well-demanded goods throughout the Sahara (for instance, exporting Gold or Alum for good money is a very viable strategy ATM). Later on, after the Age of Discovery, the coastal markets may get connected to other markets, making them more relevant, and maybe switching the power balance of the region from the North to the South, as historically happened (but take it as a ‘maybe’, not for granted, OFC!).

Population:
Population .png

Population 2.png

Population 3.png

Population 4.png

Population 5.png
Population of the region. We’ve improved a bit our tracking of the population data, to avoid further problems like the one we had with Germany. I can tell you that the total population of Western Africa is around 5.6M people, which is divided into 2.2M for the Sahel, and 3.3M for the coast of Guinea. You may very well notice that the hegemonic power here may be Mali, with around 700k people, but also that there are many more people not living under the rule of a polity, than living under it, which will make for interesting gameplay on how to deal with it (more about this in a later Tinto Talks, soon…).

And, speaking of that, I have the sad news that next Friday there is a bank holiday here in Spain, so there won’t be a Tinto Maps. The next one will be on Friday 23rd, and we will be taking a look at Eastern Africa! Until then, you may still stay tuned, as we will be replying to feedback, as usual, and we may have some informal maps incoming. Cheers!
 
  • 142Like
  • 69Love
  • 6
  • 4
  • 4
Reactions:
Hello, and welcome one more week to Tinto Maps, the day of the week for map nerds lovers! This week we will be taking a look at Western Africa! These lands were named historically in different ways, although probably the most widespread naming was Guinea, which also names the Gulf that makes for the southern limit of the region, with the Atlantic Ocean being to the west, the Sahara desert to the north, and the lands around Lake Chad making for the approximate eastern border.

With these regions, we’re also leaving the ‘Easy Mode Map-Making’ of Project Caesar, as getting comprehensive sources of information for 1337 for most of Sub-Saharan Africa is challenging, as the traditional historical record was oral, in contrast with the written records usual in Eurasia. In any case, we did our best to depict the rich history and geography of the region and its diversity, which is stunning. Let’s start, then!

Countries:
View attachment 1173385
The most important country, and one of the world's great powers, is the Empire of Mali, which in 1337 is at its zenit, still ruled by the infamous Mansa Mūsā. It controls not only the core lands of the Mandé-speaking peoples, but also holds the overlordship over Jolof, most of the fertile Niger river basin, and some of the most important Saharan outposts. To its south-east, the Mossi are organized in several polities (Ougadagou, Gwiriko, Yatenga, Boussouma, Tenkodogo, and Liptako). South into the coast, Kong, Dagbon, Bonoman, and Mankessim are polities ruled by the Dyula, the Dagbani, and the Akan (the last two). To the east, Fada N’gourma, Borgu, and Mamprugu connect with the lands of the Hausa, which rule from several city-states: Kebbi, Gobir, Zafara, Katsina, Daura, Kano, Rano, and Zazzau. Further to the east, the Empire of Kanem rules the lands around Lake Chad from its capital in Njimi, and over some of the Saharan corridors, making it the region's second wealthiest country. And finally, further to the south, there are the lands of the Nupe, the Yoruba (Oyo, Ife, Ijebu, Owo), the Edo (Benin), and the Igbo (Nri).

Dynasties:
View attachment 1173389
The dynasties of the region are a mix of well-known ones, such as the Keita of Mali, the Ndiaye of Jolof, or the Sayfawa of Kanem, and randomly generated ones for the rest of the polities, as we don’t have good enough sources on who was ruling over most of them in 1337.

Locations:
View attachment 1173390
The locations of Western Africa. We’ve tried our best to find suitable locations, correct naming, etc., although I’m sure there might be plenty of feedback to apply.

Provinces:
View attachment 1173394

Areas:
View attachment 1173395

Terrain:
View attachment 1173396
View attachment 1173397
View attachment 1173398
This week we have proper Terrain mapmodes at the release of the Tinto Maps… Not much to say about them, though, as the climate and vegetation are pretty straightforward, being divided into Arid and Tropical; while the vegetation goes from desert and sparse beside the Sahara, to increasingly more forested terrain, until reaching the tropical jungles by the coast. The topography is not very fragmented, with the Guinean Highlands and the Adamawa Plateau being the most important landmarks.

Natural Harbors:
View attachment 1173399
A new map mode this week, coming from the latest Tinto Talks! There are some decent natural harbors in the region, with Banana Islands (where Freetown would be founded), Elmina, and Calabar being the best ones.

Cultures:
View attachment 1173400
A beautiful map this week… I may repeat that we tried our best to approach the region, taking into account that this was the first African region we completed, around 3 years ago. When we review it, we may add some more diversity, as we have now some more tools than the ones we had back in time, but we think that it’s way best to read your feedback first, to make sure we are on the same page.

Religions:
View attachment 1173401
Take this map as very WIP. The Sunni-Animism division is kind of accurate, with the expected division for 1337 (Islam would later on advance more to the South, but we think this is the best for this date). What we have yet to do is to divide the ‘Animism’ population into some of the regional variants; we already have plenty of data, but we also want to read your feedback on this first.

Raw Materials:
View attachment 1173402
The goods of the region are quite diverse and very dependent on the geography. In the Saharan lands, there are plenty of locations with resources such as Salt, Copper, or Alum (regarding this resource, the lands to the north of Lake Chad make for the densest Alum hub in the world for 1337, something the historical sources talk about). Livestock is king in the Sahelian lands, while there are plenty of agricultural goods in the Niger river basin. The region is also full of luxury goods, of which Gold is the most relevant, as being the biggest supply of this metal to the Mediterranean and Europe in the Late Middle Ages, while also having others such as Ivory, Gems, or Spices (which in this region are portraying some goods such as kola nuts, or malagueta pepper). Finally, the coasts of the Gulf of Guinea have plenty of Fish. Maybe the only type of good that is not very abundant in the region is metals, as having some Iron, Tin, etc., but not much in comparison with other regions.

Markets:
View attachment 1173403
Markets of the region, have an interesting distribution. The most important ones in 1337 are Niani, Kano, and Njimi, which are also connected to the Northern African markets, making it possible to get plenty of wealth by exporting well-demanded goods throughout the Sahara (for instance, exporting Gold or Alum for good money is a very viable strategy ATM). Later on, after the Age of Discovery, the coastal markets may get connected to other markets, making them more relevant, and maybe switching the power balance of the region from the North to the South, as historically happened (but take it as a ‘maybe’, not for granted, OFC!).

Population:
View attachment 1173404
Population of the region. We’ve improved a bit our tracking of the population data, to avoid further problems like the one we had with Germany. I can tell you that the total population of Western Africa is around 5.6M people, which is divided into 2.2M for the Sahel, and 3.3M for the coast of Guinea. You may very well notice that the hegemonic power here may be Mali, with around 700k people, but also that there are many more people not living under the rule of a polity, than living under it, which will make for interesting gameplay on how to deal with it (more about this in a later Tinto Talks, soon…).

And, speaking of that, I have the sad news that next Friday there is a bank holiday here in Spain, so there won’t be a Tinto Maps. The next one will be on Friday 23rd, and we will be taking a look at Eastern Africa! Until then, you may still stay tuned, as we will be replying to feedback, as usual, and we may have some informal maps incoming. Cheers!
Id posted on a previous maps that I think raw goods colors need to be better grouped to represent general types so its easier to tell which areas specialize in agriculture vs metals vs exotic goods etc. And i think it shows up here too.

The color for gold is really mild i almost completely overlooked it without realizing it was there.
 
  • 1Like
Reactions:
From page 57 of Les royaumes wolof dans l’espace sénégambien : XIIIe-XVIIIe siècle (Jean Boulenge), Sine and Saloum were not incorporated into the Jolof Empire until ~1400. They should be part of the Mali Empire in 1337.
 
  • 1Like
Reactions:
There are too many livestock locations south of the Sahel. While it's not impossible to raise domesticated mammals in sub-Saharan Africa, the Tsetse fly and the Nagana they carry devastate especially cattle, making animal husbandry not economically feasible before the advent of modern medicine and pest control. The effects of Nagana, or sleeping sickness as it's called when humans contract it, should honestly be one of the major defining features of west Africa, seeing how the lack of draft animals forced a lot more humans onto the fields compared to equally productive agriculture in places like India or Southeast Asia. Additionally non-West Africans struggled with sleeping sickness until it's cure was invented in 1916 - contributing to the relative lack of white settlers in the colonies of West Africa.

It's also being debated if the lack of non-human labour in this part of the world lead to the prevalence of slavery, laying the foundation for the devastating triangle trade. The reasoning being that the impossibility of improving agricultural wealth by material means (livestock for ploughing, fertilizing and transporting), and the consensual acquisition of labour only getting you so far, elites resorted to the "cheapest" and "easiest" way of increasing their wealth and power - slavery.

I can't really speak on the gameplay implications of the Tsetse, since we don't know how the disease system works yet. But I hope sleeping sickness and Nagana are being considered since they shaped the material conditions of the polities of West Africa and how the rest of the world interacted with them even to this day.
To add to my comment from yesterday: The shortage of livestock also led to a lack of animal fiber. This made cloth a desirable commodity for the peoples of southern West Africa, thus resulting in an almost natural trade opportunity between Western Europe and West Africa. Cloth and metals from western europe were exchanged for gold and later slaves.

The game is in a great position to mechanically encourage the player and the AI to make the same economic decisions, leading to a very believable development of West Africa. But for that to happen the regions south of the Sahel need to be nerfed in terms of livestock production.
 
  • 5Like
  • 5
Reactions:
Some countries are strange, I have never heard or read about them, probably because they are tribal and have left nothing behind. Then why not add a couple more? Or a couple dozen...

View attachment 1173783

I have compiled a more complete map of the states and neighboring tribes about which I had information and which occupy more than one province or are important players in the region. Different sources contradict each other, so I had to move some countries.

The solid line marks mostly the countries shown to us. The dotted line shows the added and modified countries that survived until the beginning of the 18th century, plus the trade hegemony of Benin. Dots indicate countries that do not exist or are subjects of the country in which they are located, for example, in Benin, dependent trading partners are shown in this way.
Most of these did not exist in 1337. We should represent the states that existed, but this is revisionism.
 
  • 6
  • 4Like
Reactions:
Been watching all the "Project Caesar" diaries to date, very excited. Great work devs.

The bit about ahistorical filler dynasties gave me a thought though. I wonder if there could be a simple mechanic instead to allow a dynasty to rise up or something... Maybe a simple ruler picking system, similar to republics in EU4, or an "election" system where a leading dynasty rises to the top over a few months with traits based on decisions/dice rolls perhaps related to the estates, or even sort of leader creator similar to CK3 but simpler. I get why you'd pre-populate them of course, but at the same time it does promote a false history in a way that could be avoided. A small mechanic that winks at the audience about the ahistorical nature might just help a bit, and potentially make use of the lack of information in a fun way. I also do wonder if all these tribes were really dynastic autocracies, or whether some were more elder council lead etc... maybe some variety could be interesting (or emerge through this selection system).
 
I hope this region can evovle on it's own, nt just by being colonized by Europeans, considered the colonisation of this reigon in this period was rather limited.
 
  • 3Like
  • 3
Reactions:
I hope this region can evovle on it's own, nt just by being colonized by Europeans, considered the colonisation of this reigon in this period was rather limited.
No real "colonisation" outside of trade posts during this period in West Africa. Slavery is one of the more pronounced elements of Europe's interaction with this part of Africa at the time afaik. West African states often took slaves during wars and this was fed into the well known triangular slave trade.

One of the things that I'm wondering about (considering we now have pops) is how slavery within West Africa and other parts of the world at this time will be mechanically represented.

In Victoria 2 slaves are a static pop that can't migrate, but in this period they're literally a commodity to be sold as a trade good... And they aren't generated as other "goods" on an RGO, these are pops.

So wondering how one either turns this on or off as a ruler and, if it's on, how it would even work with how you're "trading" out pops instead of them just being a class within your own population...Even if I had slave pops why would I sell them if population = power? Unless there's some huge profits gameplay-wise to be made. Serious question.

EDIT: Maybe "Slave Traders" should be an estate you have to work really hard to get rid of? They would periodically gain income from selling parts of your slave-class pops to other tags perhaps?

African_slave_trade.png
 
Last edited:
  • 5Like
  • 5
Reactions:
I'm super excited to see Africa get some better attention in terms of religion! Blanket "animism" to cover entire regions' religious beliefs has never felt right to me.
 
  • 4Like
  • 3
Reactions:
I'm super excited to see Africa get some better attention in terms of religion! Blanket "animism" to cover entire regions' religious beliefs has never felt right to me.
Personally looking for something like this CK3 mod:

REL-MAP.jpg
 
  • 7Like
  • 4
  • 3
Reactions:
Religions in west africa are ethnoreligions, I think they could just have religions for each ethnic group, I’m not aware of wider groupings
Well Shona Mwari religion is very close to that practiced by Nguni groups in South Africa, even if they use different names.
 
  • 2
Reactions:
Well Shona Mwari religion is very close to that practiced by Nguni groups in South Africa, even if they use different names.
I’m sure groupings can and have been made but was just saying I’m not aware of them, with the added granularity regarding religion I guess I’d expect each culture to have their religion. There are many that are very difficult though. There’s no information on Wolof religion prior to Islamisation, it got removed/altered from their oral traditions. I imagine you only need scraps of information for religion flavour and mechanics, just like monotheism vs polytheism, adorcism etc.? I’d like to see a sentence on creation myths in the window of text that you get the first time you load into a save
 
Last edited:
  • 2
  • 1Like
Reactions:
@Pavía The General History of Africa Vol. 4 is from 1984, that's a very old secondary source. Newer publications should usually be considered as more reliable because they reflect the more recent state of the art which means that they also reflect the discussions on specific issues such as population figures. In demographic research, within the last four decades, we had the rise of computer science for modeling populations (which was only to some degree viable in the 1980s), combined with general trends of doing interdisciplinary research to conduct, e.g., historical linguistics and ethnographic approaches together with paleoenvironmental approaches and archeology. These are approaches that are relevant for discussions on the Anthropocene, which is again an entirely new concept that was popularized in the 1990s / early 2000s due to debates on climate change and environmental issues.

To get back to population figures, there is more than one generation of scholars that worked on population numbers after the General History of Africa. In this time period, there have been entirely new approaches and paradigms, like global and transnational history, environmental history, queer and gender studies, postcolonial studies, cultural studies, etc. etc.

The general trend of recent scholarship that put the figures for sub-Saharan Africa much higher than previously (?) are also reflected in Green (2012, p. 243):
  • 1300: 60M.; 1400: 60M.; 1500: 78M.; 1600: 104M.; 1700: 97M.; 1800: 92M.; 1850: 90M.; 1900: 95M.
What we tend to forget, due to the projections we use, is that (sub-Saharan) Africa is huge. Let's take a look at the Mollweide projection below:
View attachment 1173809
The Qing Empire had roughly 14,7 million square kilometers, whereas sub-Saharan Africa has 24,3 million square kilometers. Europe, on the other hand, only has about 10 million square kilometers. That is, sub-Saharan Africa is about 66% larger than the Qing Empire. China currently has 1,4 billion people, whereas sub-Saharan Africa has 1,2 billion people. Population projections for the year 2100 estimate 3 billion people for sub-Saharan Africa.

The point is that it's not implausible at all that sub-Saharan Africa had somewhere between 30-50 million inhabitants in 1300, given its enormous size and enormous resources, and considering the current trajectories in population growth. Moreover, since we do have much more reliable sources for population figures in later centuries, we can at least infer (backcast) what the population figures might have looked like in 1300, considering that we would have to calibrate the growth rates to explain the numbers that we deem as more reliable. Exactly this is what population modeling has been doing in the last couple of decades.

Reference
Green, E. D. (2012). Demographic change and conflict in contemporary Africa. In J. A. Goldstone, E. P. Kaufmann, & M. D. Toft (Eds.), Political demography: How population changes are reshaping international security and national politics (pp. 238–263). Oxford University Press.

*edit* I double checked Green, and the figures of 50-60M. are rather old, too (1979). Currently checking for newer academic sources in journals instead of books, might take a day or two.
It should be noted that the area of the Qing empire that contains all (bar rounding errors) of the hundreds of millions of population is only about a fourth of its whole territory.
Feedback regarding the Mossi:

View attachment 1173873

1. Why is Mossi culture so widespread? Is it supposed to encompass all the Oti-Volta languages, or what?

For reference:

View attachment 1173874
View attachment 1173876
Moore-speaking area inhabited by the Mossi people.

View attachment 1173875

All areas inhabited by speakers of Gur languages, with 2 being Oti-Volta languages including Moore.

As far as I am aware, the culture didn't shrink over time, so while these maps are modern it gives a rough idea of what area they should inhabit.

2. Should Ougadougou (Wagadugu) really be so large? For example, they seem to own a lot of Gurunsi lands, but according to english wikipedia:

View attachment 1173882
Daboya for example should not be owned by them either:
View attachment 1173885
Paga probably didn't exist yet, but there might not be a better location name. In either case, that location was definitely not controlled by Wagadugu:
View attachment 1173886

Gambaga should be owned by Mamprusi/Mamprugu Kingdom, which is absent from your map:
View attachment 1173887
View attachment 1173888

Wa is more unclear, but it should probably also not be owned by Wagadugu:
"Political, economic, and social developments between 1500 and 1900 led to the rise of Wa and the creation of the Waala Kingdom. Trans-Saharan trade routes passing through Wa exposed Wa to all participants in the trade and attracted some to settle in Wa."

On your map this place is inhabited by Gurunsi, and the Wala people are absent.

Tiebele and Pô are both slightly anachronistic, but there aren't really better names. The Gurunsi Kassena people settled the area in the 15th century, and I can't find who lived there before that. These towns originate from this settlement period. I suppose giving them to Wagadugu is a fine placeholder. Trying to find info on Léo just ends up giving results on Leo Africanus, so I don't know about that... it being Gurunsi is fine though.

Something I found funny though:
View attachment 1173890

These locations are all neatly about the same size. However in real life:

View attachment 1173891

3 of these settlements are right next to each other, while Léo is WAY further away. Not saying anything needs to be changed, as I think the settlements are still within the borders of their respective locations (hard to say without an overlay map with the same projection), but it's just amusing.

Why is Bankuy a location? As far as I can tell it's a small village with no historical or modern significance.

Anyways, finding info on other locations is difficult, so I cannot say if Wagadugu should own them or not. So at the very least, they shouldn't extend to far south. Their western border is up to debate, but keep in mind this area wasn't inhabited by Mossi people, but by various other cultures. However, I don't know how granular you want to be, so I'll leave the culture and ownership of these western locations up to you to decide.

Unrelated to Mossi, like others have said there are many anachronistic states in this area too, Gwiriko, Kong, Dagbon etc. which should not exist in 1337.
Don't know that much about West Africa but I am really getting the impression that this region should have like way, WAY more cultures. You're telling me Germany has three cultures per dialect and meanwhile in West Africa we are going about taking multiple distinct entire groups of languages and amalgamating them together?
 
Last edited:
  • 7
  • 1Like
Reactions:
I'm super excited to see Africa get some better attention in terms of religion! Blanket "animism" to cover entire regions' religious beliefs has never felt right to me.
I for one am excited to see how they'll phase out "animism" in the rest of the world, having Hawaiʻi follow the same religion as the Mapuche and Tidore was fucking insane
 
  • 2Like
Reactions:
Will you be representing the tsetse fly in any way? A large reason the Sahelian empires took the shape they did was that their cavalry (and to a certain extent soldiers) were obliterated by the fly south of the arid regions you depicted on the map. This could be represented by a severe attrition modifier (80-100% attrition for cav units, 60% for the others) that can be lessened by tech like in V3? It would also make a lot of sense to separate the tech groups along this line as well, with sahelian having a cav unit and different troops than the sub-sahelian/guinean/west-african. Would love to see the ways other diseases will also be represented in the game, especially when it comes to the new world!
 
  • 10
  • 4Like
  • 1
Reactions: