Tinto Maps #18 - 13th of September 2024 - Persia & Caucasus

[Shaheen_Jc]

A lot of inaccuracies. There is almost no distinction between Khorasanis and Tajiks. Tajiks are just Persian speakers from Afghanistan, Tajikistan and parts of modern day Uzbekistan (Samarqand and Bukhara and other regions within the country) and this region was called Khorasan.
The Khwarizmian culture is highly inaccurate, it should only be present in Khwarizm region (Near the Aral sea) to a very small extent as most of them were wiped out by the mongol invaders in the 1210s and were replaced by Turks.

Transoxiania's major centers like Samarkand and Bukhara and most of its rural areas as well should instead be majority Persian speaking people (Tajik, even tho I suggest you change it to Khorasani), and there isn't a single credible historian in the world that disagrees with this.

Also do note that there was a small Jewish presence in Bukhara (Bukharan Jews) who spoke Persian.


Even to this day, Samarkand and Bukhara are majority Tajik and I am saying this as someone who has relatives in Samarkand and Bukhara. (I am from Afghanistan)
Here's a quote from a historian on the importance of the Persian (the language of Tajiks who are the only Persian speakers in Transoxiania) in Transoxiania (under chagatai khanate)

''Black, Edwin (1991). The Modernization of Inner Asia. M.E. Sharpe. pp. 32–33. The administrative and bureaucratic language of towns and khanates was Persian. Whereas Persian was the dominant literary language of the area, Chagatai shared its distinction by being the only Turkic literary language in Central Asia from the fourteenth to the early twentieth century.''

If Persian was the dominant language of the area, it means that the Persian speakers (Tajiks) were the dominant people of the area.
Even to this day, Tajiks are majority in Samarkand and Bukhara.

''Even so, one has merely to spend a few moments on the streets of Samarkandor Bukhara – the country’s second and third largest cities – to realize that mostpassers-by are speaking amongst themselves in Tojikī, not Uzbek.''
Reference : A History of the Tajiks: Iranians of the East, page 11, Richard Foltz


I would also point it the fact that the Afghan culture (which should be replaced by Pakhtun/Pashtun culture) wasn't as dominant in 1337 as shown on the map. Places like Farah province and Zaranj wouldn't and has never been majority Pashtun (Could argue with Farah city as it is half Tajik, half Pashtun today). If you look at the demographics of the Farah province, 70% of its population speak Persian/Dari and only 30% Pashtu. So this proves only 30% of Farah province is Pashtun. (Pashtun immigration to the north of modern day Afghanistan started in the 19th century)

File:Map of Languages (in Districts) in Afghanistan.jpg - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Source is from the 1985 central statistics office of Afghanistan
Here's a map of the languages of Afghanistan in each district. Dari or Persian Dari is the mother tongue of the Tajiks and Hazaras. So Hazaras would be majority in Bamyian and surrounding areas.

Do note that the migration of Turkic peoples from northern and eastern Central Asia to Transoxania and Afghanistan was a gradual event that took several centuries. Therefore, there were no major Turkic cities in modern Afghanistan in 1337.

Here is a map that better shows the region where the Hazaras live (they also live in the big cities like Kabul, Herat and Mazar-e-Sharif, but they are in the minority):

You have shown Ghor province as being majority Hazara, again that is factually incorrect. Ghor province (the origin place of the Ghurids who were Tajiks/Khorasanis and Kartids were related to Ghurids) was and still is majority Tajik with around 40% of it being Hazaras in the East.

Please do take this into consideration and correct the inaccuracies.
Thank you for taking the time to read this the comment.

 

[SuperLexxe]

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I feel like there should be significant populations of Mongols and even more Turkics across the Ilkhanate

Before Hülegu began the invasion of Iran, he was assigned 1/5th of the Mongol Empire's nomadic forces in a split of the Empire by Möngke Khan. This meant 17 tümens of warriors, 170 000 men, including their families.

• As Iran suffered enormous civilian casualties during the invasion of 1255-57, those areas were then settled by the new nomadic peoples, whom have only further grown in size during the following 80~ years, to fill up the available land left by the mass depopulations of the sedentary peoples. There were also additional nomadic migrations into the Ilkhanate during its lifespan, largely to Khorasan

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I've drawn up a rough map of the original tümen allocations of the Ilkhanate. Most of the nomadic peoples in the army of Hülegu were from Turkic tribes, hence don't take these tümens as being entirely made up of Mongols, whom likely consisted only around 30% of the population. However, from the Mongols that were there, we have little knowledge of their tribal affiliations, because tümens were more often than not mixed units. There would have been Mongols from multiple different tribes, from which the makeshift tribes such as the Jauni Kurban and several others were made up of.

I've written up the tribes we know of, or can assume to have been in the area based on the tribes of their commanders. Again, don't take these tümens as being 100% Mongols, because they likely made up only around 30%. However, the Mongols likely would have occupied the best pastures, and in the list below I present how many Mongols there would have been in the days of Hülegu:

1 Tümen = 10,000 soldiers = 50,000 to 60,000 nomadic people
1 Minggan = 1000 soldiers = 5000 to 6000 nomadic people

• The Jalayirs, Suldus, Bayads and Keraites are known to have inhabited the central pastures of the empire in the Caucasus and Azerbaijan
  • 60,000 to 72,000 Mongols
    
    
• Ughan, from whom the Ughanids take their name, was a Jalayir minggan commander, so I've decided to mark them as Jalayirs, along with the Jurmanids, with whom they intermixed
  • 10,000 to 12,000 Mongols
    
    
• The descendants of Qasar went on to form the Khorchin tribe, and Qasar himself inherited people from the tribe of his mother, the Khongirad, so I would assume his descendants in Khorasan are alike
  • 45,000 to 54,000 Mongols
    
    
• The Oirats had two different migratory paths upon entering the Middle East. To the West, to Eastern Anatolia, Diyarbakir and Mosul, under Buqa Temür. To the East, to Khorasan, under Arghun Aqa
  
  
  • West: 30,000 to 36,000 Mongols
    • The Sutayids are said to belong to the Sunud tribe, who inhabited the area of Diyarbakir, and often clashed with their Oirat neighbours
      
      
  • East: 30,000 to 36,000 Mongols
    
    
• The Hazaras and Moghols were likely descended from one of the tümen assigned to the region
  • 50,000 to 60,000 Mongols and Turkics, mixed with the locals
• The Negüderis winter pasture is based in Ghazni
  • 50,000 to 60,000 Mongols and Turkics, probably mixed with many others

Note that these Mongol numbers are what would have been 80~ years ago. Over the lifespan of the Ilkhanate, the nomadic (and sedentary) peoples' would have only grown, to fill in the tümen pastures and massively depopulated regions, especially in the ravaged East

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The religious and cultural make up of the Mongols in the Middle East would not have changed much since the time of the invasion, owing to their nomadic nature and being largely isolated from their conquered sedentary subjects:

• Islam became state religion of the ruling Ilkhans only 30 years prior, mainly for the benefit of said sedentary peoples. The Noyad and their nomadic peoples were very much against this change (largely the Mongols. Their fellow Turkmen were already muslim)
• This division is clearly seen in the election of Arpa Ke'un in 1336, who was the fauvorite of the military elite. Arpa Ke'un was as opposite of the Islamic Abu Sa'id as could be

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"Mongol Manpower and Persian Population" (1975)

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"Nomadism in Iran from Antiquity to the Modern Era" (2014):

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"The Mongols and the Islamic World" (2017):

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"The Mongol Empire and Its Legacy" (2000):

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Also a little bit on the religion of the Mongols

"The End of the Ilkhanate and After - Observations on the Collapse of the Mongol Empire" (2016):

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Also a little bit of Chinese sprinkled in

"Nomads as Agents of Cultural Change - The Mongols and their Eurasian Predecessors" (2014):

"The Mongols and the Islamic World" (2017):

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"The Jalayirids: Dynastic State Formation in the Mongol Middle East" (2016):

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"Oirats in the Ilkhanate and the Mamluk Sultanate inthe Thirteenth to the Early Fifteenth Centuries: TwoCases of Assimilation into the Muslim Environment" (2016):

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And a couple smaller Mongol tribes based in Fars

"The Mongols and the Islamic World" (2017):

"Nomadism in Iran from Antiquity to the Modern Era" (2014):

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"Ulus Emirs, Keshig Elders, Signatures, and Marriage Partners: The Evolution of a Classic Mongol Institution" (2006):

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"Mongol Aristocrats and Beyliks in Anatolia. A study of Astarabadi's Bazm va Razm" (2011):

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[Pavía]

The broder between Khorezmians and Tajiks looks way too clean. Is Khorezmian representing Turkic speakers or Iranian speakers?

Turkic.

 

[Ramiro564]

It seems interesting to play in the Ilkhanate, cool

 

[Kaspar Osraige]

Very cool! I am really, really, really happy with how you did cultures and religions. Usually Paradox games just do not even try in the Caucasus, and I was encouraged by you adding in Durdzuketia and such, but even then I did not expect Dagestanians being subdivided. Religions are also cool, as the single province Lezgin paganism points to the fact that you want to do the religion stuff real good.

But enough praisal, let me ask you a few things about your decisions:

1. Karachay and Balkar are very closely related, did you think about unifying them? Same goes for Abkhaz and Abazin, as well as Laz and Mingrelian, the principal difference between which is the religion.
2. Any representation of the various Jews of this region? The Mountain Jews, Georgian Jews, Kurdish Jews?
3. Among the small native Caucasian ethnicities not represented, I would argue for Tsez and Andi perhaps, but that is on linguistic grounds and not that important in my opinion. What I really want to see is Udi, the last remnants of Caucasian Albanians.
4. You are missing several important Turkic groups of Iran. The Arghu-Khalaj were already living in both their current location in Central Iran (close to Rayy actually) and in Afghanistan, in connection with the Ghilzāi clan. Another group is the Qashqa'i nomads of southern Iran, which should also be on the map in my opinion.
5. I would like to see small ethnicities of Afghanistan like the Wakhi descending from Sakae, Yaghnobi descending from Sogdians and Nuristani/Kafiristani.
6. As for religion, I LOVE the Caucasian pagans! But I wonder if Karachay-Balkar paganism should be called Cuman paganism or just be Tengriism? In any case it should be similar to Tengriism rather than Caucasians.
7. Name Balkar is theorized to descend from Bolghar, maybe some representation of this fact?
8. Also, area names read a bit inconsistent really. I wish it was more English-y in general.
9. Also, there should be Mongolians in Afghanistan, representing the ancestors of Moghuli people, as well as some Arabs.

 

[matfer13]

To be fair, the only color that is similar to another is that of the Injuids; the subjects of Jalayirids get similar coloring, as those of the Sulttayids.

1- Ok, but why did you put so many white tags so close, couldn't have them changed a bit before the TM
2- Where the Chobanids vassals of the Jalayrids?!?

 

[Ahmadmltft]

May i ask where is the line drawn between "Persian", "Khorasani" and "Tajik" drawn?since they overlapped a lot and even in the case of Khorasan it was a very poorly defined region, sometimes going as far as syr darya and other times limited only to the area around Nishapur and Herat.Tajik is even worse,since the term in modern times is basically a substitute for "Persian speaker in central asia" and Khorasani already takes that role,not to mention that during this timeframe the use of Tajik was very liberal and in practice synonyms with "Persian" as even Persian speakers in the middle of iran were called Tajiks

There are two solutions here:
1.Break Persian itself into multiple regional cultures like "Esfahani" "Eraqi" "Jonubi(southern)".There isn't really anything to back this up since the various dialects weren't written(or rarely written) and Dari Persian was standardized for a long time(since the 9th century) due to it's prestige.But at least it's consistent

2.Merge Tajik,Persian and Khorasani.Although it makes the map seem a lot less granular it does make much more sense historically,you can add an event or something that diverges Persian pops in the central Asian region into Tajik whenever a certain amount of them become non-sunni.Persian speakers were mostly settled so you can't go for tribal division,and the Lurs already fill the void of a nomadic persian speaking culture.

 

[_Gulag_]

The wait is over...

I wonder if the Parsis will be represented as 'Parsis' or 'Persians', culturally

 

[matfer13]

@Pavía can you give us the political map with coloured wastelands plz?

 

[Sulphurologist]

Locations:
View attachment 1187109

View attachment 1187111

View attachment 1187115

As I won't have time to do an expansive topography post today, a summary on some of the impassables.

I think the lack of impassables in the central Zagros Mountain range (near Isfahan) is concerning, and the Caucasus is way too open centrally.

 

[Paulatim]

Why the nice idea of connection locations that cannot be conquered is limited to the Sahara? I guess that the khizilkhum and karakum or arabian deserts are not less hostile, with again routes through them that were followed while the populated territory being basically a constellation of oasis. Or am I missing something?

 

[AstroMorgan]

Alans will be Iranian, correct?

 

[Thorum]

Three points :

- Question about Balochistan :

From google satelites, shouldn't there be east-west ridges between the coastal and inland provinces here. Even today, there's like no connections except to the Gwadar and Gwatar locations...
And maybe another such ridge line a bit more north ?




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Finally an inland sea . Would it be possible to share which inland seas will be navigable ?


- Will the IO impact conquest ? Randomly, say some green nation wants to expand eastwards ?

 

[PerhapsItsChondoLal]

I wonder if the Parsis will be represented as 'Parsis' or 'Persians', culturally

That is an intriguing question which might be relevant in this map as well tbh. I suppose early Parsis and later Persian immigrants might be differentiated? The Parsis did take up Gujrati...

 

[One_Eyed1]

Shouldn't Georgia be independent of Ilkhanate by this point? According to wikipedia (not a great source I know, but only one I have) George V stopped paying tribute and drove the mongols out in 1327, a full decade before the start of the game.

 

[Swod]

I don't think Islam was so widespread in Khachen (Artsakh) in the 14th century. This mountainous Armenian area was monoreligious during the existence of the Khachen principality. Consider making it more homogeneous in cultural and religious terms.

 

[Tavolo87]

why is a locationless zone considered as a port? (see the Caspian sea port map on the middle right side of the image)

 

[matfer13]

Correct me if I'm wrong but Afghan should be probably renamed to Pashtun

 

[Zaldun]

Is Azeri supposed to be Iranian and Adhari Turkic?

Other way around I believe

 

[Kr4mpus]

Will there be a decision for a Zoroastrian country to Refound Ctesiphon kinda like how you can rebuild the Palace in CK3? Or is it too early and a question for the flavour tinto talks in 2025?