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I saw a fun suggestion in another thread that China, Korea, Japan and probably some other far east Asian countries should be covered by a broad "east Asian" religion that had mechanics for representing the influence of folk beliefs, Buddhism, Neo-Confucianism and Christianity - I would also add Islam to the mix - on the greater belief structure of the country. So you could supress or promote different aspects of the mix that made up the broader spiritual beliefs of the region, like Korea suppressing Buddhism and promoting Neo-Confucian systems, Japan's grappling with Christianity, etc.

I thought that was neat.
 
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Yes. China is a massively important country. It's entirely justified to have entire, bespoke mechanics for China alone.
Definitely, imagine if a chinese studio was to make a game about world history in which they consider that european societies all have they're own belief system that is influenced by the christian school of thought (orthodoxy, reformation and catholicism just being schools of thoughts that can coexist and influence each other of course :)). That would feel like a big overlook
 
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> It is that the Chinese religion, on the level of the popular practice and belief has these currents being practically inseparable from each other

The state itself drew lines separating these faiths. It is on the level of the people, who in practice syncretize their beliefs, that a unified image can be drawn. But in the history of the state, those lines were drawn by every dynasty in the history of the region. It is a question of where those lines are drawn.

> I myself raised and have labelled as a religion that really was not part of the Sinic worldview but was a foreign import

China is not unique in the practice of localizing religions. This is what occurred when the Greeks arrived in Afghanistan; when the Romans arrived in Greece; when the Greeks arrived in Egypt; when the Nords arrived in Russia; when Buddhism arrived in China; and further, when Confucianism, and when Buddhism, arrived in Japan.

> Your idea to represent Confucianism and Daoism with Pops is ultimately inaccurate and just leads to arbitrary lines being drawn everywhere.

I think rather than disagreeing about the actual nature of what occured, we may not be agreeing over what syncretization is. It is the process of religions being localized, the process of beliefs being harmonized, the process of cultural views and beliefs that at one point were different, becoming difficult to disentangle. A pop that is both Buddhist and Daoist is a way to represent the reality that over the long history of China, many governments in its history have- whether you may wish to draw those lines or not- drawn lines between those related beliefs, and chosen to impose sanctions, restrictions, or state elevations of some aspects of belief over others.

> These are primarily attacks and suppressions of an organised clergy and a current of thought that are trying to destroy it and weaken it. They are not institutionalised campaigns like the Inquisition trying to ensure that a population follows the correct orthodox religion

Suppression of some beliefs and ways of practice and not others by the state is something that is, quite frankly, more important to represent than whether or not those sets of beliefs are commonly held by the same people. The distinction of whether not not this falls under a Christian model of 'correcting' heresies is less important than the reality that beliefs were being suppressed. It does a disservice to the history of religion and practice in China to simply represent these beliefs which the state did not treat the same, as being the same.

This is why I suggested allowing the government to suppress or elevate beliefs, independent of whether those beliefs are the 'state religion'. It's not necessary to represent the Chinese state sending missionaries to enforce a code of state orthodoxy (although the Ming dynasty did, in fact, do something very similar to this in its enforcement of neo-confucianism at the level of temples). It would, however, be a good idea to represent the state cherry-picking beliefs they prefer, and elevating or suppressing them, as happened in history under nearly every dynasty in the history of China.

> even campaigns as extreme as those in Joseon Dynasty against Buddhism helped in crushing monasteries and monastic tradition but did not actually attempt to kick out Buddhism from society

Indeed, rather than remove beliefs, governments in China have historically preferred to officiate beliefs. Rather than 'remove' Daoism, the Ming dynasty sought to adjust Daoism to better conform to a more state-sanction set of neo-confuscist views. This was the common practice by many dynasties. Representing this would be highly difficult, and I agree that it would be nice to have represented. Other states with centralized state control over religion, such as Rome, or pre-Islam Egypt, frequently went through similar processes, adjusting state policy on different aspects of the beliefs of the various groups and practices within the Roman empire. Unfortunately, by the timespan of EU5, China and its sinocized neighbours are only states left that still had this level of state influence over the religions within their borders, and that makes it very hard to represent, since it's a method of organizing religion that's only possible insofar as there are little to no extranational authorities that dictate religious policy.

Imagine, for instance, if in medieval France the government picked some aspects of Catholicism, like Monasticism, and decided to aggressively suppress it. If France was the only Catholic nation, then we would describe this as a 'change in Catholic practice'. But because Catholicism is beyond just France, it would result in the Catholic Church declaring the French government to be heretics. Whether this results in an actual religious schism, or a temporary conflict, would have to be decided by history, and it would also be greatly complicated by the question of to what degree priests within France chose to actually do as the state said, or chose to remain loyal to the Holy See.

China doesn't have that concern. When a dynasty says, 'Alright, these practices are now a part of Confucianism, and these are not', then that's simply what Confucianism is now. How much the state tolerates deviations from that among regional parts of China depends largely on the dynasty in question, many of which were fairly lax, and some of which were very strict. I cannot think of a good way to represent the reality of the 'official' set of Chinese beliefs being shifted with different governments, particularly since, just like in Rome or Egypt, the government is in turn being shifted by changes in the views of the public over time as well.

I also do not know how to represent the ability of the state to change the views and practices of targeted groups within it either. In EU4, this is the premise behind Confucianism being represented with a 'Harmonisation' mechanic- representing the Ming dynasty's policy of deliberately syncretizing Buddhism, Daoism, and Confucianism into neo-confucianism. I don't like this mechanic, because it implies that if China somehow conquered Southeast Asia, then the Buddhists there would be fine with it, wheras the reality was that Buddhism in China was not the same as Buddhism in Southeast Asia, and Southeast Asian Buddhism would likely not be tolerated in the Ming Dynasty.

Valid concerns.

> These included not only the study of Daoism and Buddhism but the use of spirit-writing séances and prayers to Wenchang

This is syncretism. This is the adoption of practices from different sets of beliefs and ways, by others who otherwise would have a distinct set of beliefs. Not all within China practiced Daoism, and venerated the Buddha, and prayed to their ancestors, and held séances. Different groups and people held different sets of these beliefs, and the tolerance of these beliefs changed with the governments.

> an inseparable relation

You may think this of the people, but the governments sure didn't. And again, I would say that it's extremely important to represent the reality of state policy over the period.

I don't think it's a disagreement about syncretisation but rather about the role of the imperial institutional governance in religion. My argument is that the imperial dynasties did not really try to regulate the popular expressions of religion and what the people actually thought or draw lines in it, but rather targeted religious organisations, texts and clergy- divisions that already existed. These were the focal point of patronage and suppression, and a portrayal in-game of splitting Pops along religious lines won't be necessarily beneficial for this or needed. And would be artificial for the reasons I mentioned already.

The Ming dynasty attempted a Daoist renewal and Daoism's involvement with politics was surprisingly free of Confucian influence on the level of Ming princes (see the source on Ming politics and Daoism I posted). Certainly there was a desire to have harmony between Daoism and Confucianism but you didn't really need the imperial governance to arrange that. I haven't seen much proper evidence to your claim that the dynasties necessarily altered religious beliefs as they saw fit. Rather what you see more frequently is multiple strands and currents within a particular religion like Buddhism, and dynasties and emperors promoting those currents they are sympathetic with, while disregarding others either by cutting all support or (in earlier periods, note that this did not occur in the time span of the game in China) trying to dismantle these organised currents. Suppression of religion in China has always been about forcing clergy into lay life or other religions, burning texts and shutting down monasteries. Never about drawing lines, in for example, in Guangdong and deciding that half the people there were Buddhists and require reeducation, which seems to be what you are suggesting.
 
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I am a Chinese Muslim, I will write a thread about Muslim distribution in China at that time. I have seen the raw religion map of China and Muslim make majority in approximate nowadays Ningxia, but it is wrong and there was something like Turkey-Grecce population exchange which happened in China in late 1800s.

I will add some thesis to prove my opinion, just wait.
 
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I am a Chinese Muslim, I will write a thread about Muslim distribution in China. I have seen the raw religion map of China and Muslim make majority in approximate nowadays Ningxia, but it is wrong and there was something like Turkey-Grecce population exchange which happened in China in late 1800s.
You should wait for the China map thread. The map we saw in the religion TT was probably just placeholders and the devs seem to prefer map feedback in the relevant map thread.
 
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I am a Chinese Muslim, I will write a thread about Muslim distribution in China at that time. I have seen the raw religion map of China and Muslim make majority in approximate nowadays Ningxia, but it is wrong and there was something like Turkey-Grecce population exchange which happened in China in late 1800s.

I will add some thesis to prove my opinion, just wait.
Generally, it's good academic form to start with the sources and then form an opinion, instead of trying to look for sources that fit your subjective view of things. In any case, if you find good sources, remember them and link them in the China TT, whenever that rolls around.
 
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Definitely, imagine if a chinese studio was to make a game about world history in which they consider that european societies all have they're own belief system that is influenced by the christian school of thought (orthodoxy, reformation and catholicism just being schools of thoughts that can coexist and influence each other of course :)). That would feel like a big overlook
There is/was a Chinese grand strategy game about the Ming dynasty being developed called "Mandate Eternal" which approached this problem by simply not categorising its pops by religion at all. Though I am not sure what religious mechanics they plan to have.
Shenism (神教) is a the common academic term (at least in English) for the syncretic mix of beliefs which comprised Chinese popular religion. Nobody in China calls or ever called it that though. It's not a terribly accurate term for what you're asking for, but if you need one name for everything it's arguably better than labelling it all Confucian.
I would sooner call it "Chinese religion" (or maybe "Sinic" if we follow the pattern in the game of not using the name of the culture or the word "religion") in the game than Shenism. I have never heard the word Shenism seriously used outside of a few English scholarly articles. Chinese don't use it, and English speakers don't use it either.
 
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I feel like creating this big tent east asian or chinese religions is just not in keeping with the rest of the map. Tinto Talks are all about granularity, why we just saw they added some tengri mongols to Anatolia. If anything we want a massive religious diversity in China and elsewhere.

Why not just... exempt China from state religion mechanics? If the basic assumption is that the state plays into the expectations of each religious community, then why splitting hairs between it being buddhist, confucian, daoist or whatever? You could have the Ming, and under State Religion it would say something like 'multi-religious' or an even fancier word. That way you don't have to collapse everyone in China into a generic religion.
 
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I feel like creating this big tent east asian or chinese religions is just not in keeping with the rest of the map. Tinto Talks are all about granularity, why we just saw they added some tengri mongols to Anatolia. If anything we want a massive religious diversity in China and elsewhere.

Why not just... exempt China from state religion mechanics? If the basic assumption is that the state plays into the expectations of each religious community, then why splitting hairs between it being buddhist, confucian, daoist or whatever? You could have the Ming, and under State Religion it would say something like 'multi-religious' or an even fancier word. That way you don't have to collapse everyone in China into a generic religion.
How do you propose religious diversity being accurately portrayed when a single person may simultaneously practice two or more religions?
 
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How do you propose religious diversity being accurately portrayed when a single person may simultaneously practice two or more religions?
That's an interesting question that is not contained to China or the relationship of the chinese state with religion. It is a dilemma that is built into the game as a whole. That town in the portuguese new world where everyone is 100% catholic is as fictitious as a chinese heartland province where each person can only have one out of 5 or so religions. Nonetheless, if the same standard is applied globally then we want to see millions of chinese pops of different cultures, ethnicities and religious traditions. Smooshing everything together and only for China under a generic 'Sinic religion' just seems like exchanging one mistake for another of a different kind.

'China should not be Buddhist'. Why? Because the chinese state had no qualms negotiating and accomodating different religious traditions. Does that evolve naturally towards 'all Chinese people should have 'Chinese' written as their religion'? I don't think so.
 
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That's an interesting question that is not contained to China or the relationship of the chinese state with religion. It is a dilemma that is built into the game as a whole. That town in the portuguese new world where everyone is 100% catholic is as fictitious as a chinese heartland province where each person can only have one out of 5 or so religions. Nonetheless, if the same standard is applied globally then we want to see millions of chinese pops of different cultures, ethnicities and religious traditions. Smooshing everything together and only for China under a generic 'Sinic religion' just seems like exchanging one mistake for another of a different kind.

'China should not be Buddhist'. Why? Because the chinese state had no qualms negotiating and accomodating different religious traditions. Does that evolve naturally towards 'all Chinese people should have 'Chinese' written as their religion'? I don't think so.
When were talking about the three teachings separating them is a mistake as they were practiced simultaneously. You can't go and say "these people are Buddhist" "these people are Confucist" "these people are daoist" because in practice people typically didn't restrict themselves to practicing just one.

I don't think diversity for diversity's sake is desirable. The game should reflect the reality on the ground. Having 5000 Buddhists, 4000 daoists, and 1000 Confucists in a location doesn't work when you actually had 10000 people practicing some sort of combination of all three.

Of course if we were talking about Tibetan Buddhism, Christianity, Islam and other minority religions that's a different story.

And yes this issue goes beyond China.
 
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That's an interesting question that is not contained to China or the relationship of the chinese state with religion. It is a dilemma that is built into the game as a whole. That town in the portuguese new world where everyone is 100% catholic is as fictitious as a chinese heartland province where each person can only have one out of 5 or so religions.
I don't think this is actually true. The system where every pop gets a single religion is fundamentally designed in order to model abrahamic religions where there are relatively well-defined faiths to which you can belong and be "converted" to. Obviously it is in real life a bit more complicated than that. But arguably not really any more so than the idea that every pop only belongs exclusively to one culture. It is a game, there must be abstractions, and this one works pretty well.

However, this system doesn't really make any sense for most non-abrahamic religious traditions. In Europe it is actually very straightforward to divide the entire population into specific well-defined religious groups. That is impossible in east asia. Having the game portray east asia like that would be to introduce a characterisation of east asian societies that is wrong. On the other hand, even though Chinese faith incorporates a diverse array of traditions, I think it makes sense to say that the Chinese community is unified rather than divided by its religion, so I am satisfied by it just being one in-game religion. Of course, this also applies to many places outside of east asia. I am not opposed to those regions getting better depiction as well. But Project Caesar has a "one pop, one religion" structure, which I doubt will be changed.
Nonetheless, if the same standard is applied globally then we want to see millions of chinese pops of different cultures, ethnicities and religious traditions. Smooshing everything together and only for China under a generic 'Sinic religion' just seems like exchanging one mistake for another of a different kind.
Again, I feel like this is just totally irrelevant. Project Caesar is not a static art piece that depicts every detail of every society in the world in 1337. It is a game, with game mechanics that are designed to interact with each other to produce gameplay. The reason why religions exist as a game mechanic is because they are supposed to model how pops have religions, and how states have religions. Your proposal would be useless for that first purpose because it would falsely portray the Chinese population as being divided along religious lines. And as for the second purpose, it is completely possible for the specific Chinese religion to just be designed to have mechanics that portray the diversity of different traditions that you as the state can interact with, kind of like how Islam in eu4 has schools of thought that are not actually represented as on-map religions.
 
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When were talking about the three teachings separating them is a mistake as they were practiced simultaneously. You can't go and say "these people are Buddhist" "these people are Confucist" "these people are daoist" because in practice people typically didn't restrict themselves to practicing just one.
Yes, that’s not, and meanwhile, that’s PDX GSG
 
I don't think this is actually true. The system where every pop gets a single religion is fundamentally designed in order to model abrahamic religions where there are relatively well-defined faiths to which you can belong and be "converted" to. Obviously it is in real life a bit more complicated than that. But arguably not really any more so than the idea that every pop only belongs exclusively to one culture. It is a game, there must be abstractions, and this one works pretty well.

However, this system doesn't really make any sense for most non-abrahamic religious traditions. In Europe it is actually very straightforward to divide the entire population into specific well-defined religious groups. That is impossible in east asia. Having the game portray east asia like that would be to introduce a characterisation of east asian societies that is wrong. On the other hand, even though Chinese faith incorporates a diverse array of traditions, I think it makes sense to say that the Chinese community is unified rather than divided by its religion, so I am satisfied by it just being one in-game religion. Of course, this also applies to many places outside of east asia. I am not opposed to those regions getting better depiction as well. But Project Caesar has a "one pop, one religion" structure, which I doubt will be changed.

Again, I feel like this is just totally irrelevant. Project Caesar is not a static art piece that depicts every detail of every society in the world in 1337. It is a game, with game mechanics that are designed to interact with each other to produce gameplay. The reason why religions exist as a game mechanic is because they are supposed to model how pops have religions, and how states have religions. Your proposal would be useless for that first purpose because it would falsely portray the Chinese population as being divided along religious lines. And as for the second purpose, it is completely possible for the specific Chinese religion to just be designed to have mechanics that portray the diversity of different traditions that you as the state can interact with, kind of like how Islam in eu4 has schools of thought that are not actually represented as on-map religions.
Gennerally I think China did not have any organized religious group like a variety of churches and schools in Christianity and Islamic world. The religion is basically kept out of politics as the political leadership were trained with teaching from Confucius: "Working to give the people justice and paying respect to the spirits, but keeping away from them, you can call wisdom." (子曰:务民之义,敬鬼神而远之,可谓知矣。The Analects of Confucius 6:22, Translated by A. Charles Muller)Based on this rule, Confucian governments are supposed to be indifferent to all religions and should not have penalty from herseys or heretics.
I feel like creating this big tent east asian or chinese religions is just not in keeping with the rest of the map. Tinto Talks are all about granularity, why we just saw they added some tengri mongols to Anatolia. If anything we want a massive religious diversity in China and elsewhere.

Why not just... exempt China from state religion mechanics? If the basic assumption is that the state plays into the expectations of each religious community, then why splitting hairs between it being buddhist, confucian, daoist or whatever? You could have the Ming, and under State Religion it would say something like 'multi-religious' or an even fancier word. That way you don't have to collapse everyone in China into a generic religion.
I don't believe we should any big tent religion in East Asia or any other places. What I believe in the myth of Chinese religion is that the great majority of population are not religious at all, or to be specific, they have no preference for any religion they know about. Historical data are available for the population who went pravrajana (became a Buddist monk) or became a Taoist from a 2002 paper.

YearDynastyBuddist PriestsTaoist PriestsPriest TotalBuddist shareTaoist shareEst. Pop.Ratio1Smooth Est.Ratio2
736​
Tang
127864​
1764​
129628​
0.986​
0.014​
90000000​
694.2944426​
75594545.45​
583.1652533​
1019​
Song
245770​
17170​
262948​
0.935​
0.065​
60950000​
231.7948796​
70412000​
267.7791807​
1021​
Song
458854​
20337​
479085​
0.958​
0.042​
60950000​
127.221683​
71408000​
149.0507947​
1034​
Song
434262​
20126​
454388​
0.956​
0.044​
60950000​
134.1364649​
77882000​
171.3997729​
1042​
Song
396525​
20182​
416707​
0.952​
0.048​
60950000​
146.2658415​
81866000​
196.4593827​
1068​
Song
254798​
19384​
274182​
0.93​
0.07​
110750000​
403.9287772​
94814000​
345.8067999​
1077​
Song
232564​
19221​
251785​
0.924​
0.076​
110750000​
439.8594039​
99296000​
394.368211​
1157​
Song
200000​
10000​
210000​
0.952​
0.048​
140000000​
666.6666667​
127422500​
606.7738095​
1291​
Yuan
213148​
236831
0.9
75306000​
317.9735761​
76044573.77​
321.0921449​
1372​
Ming
57200​
63556
0.9
81000000​
1274.466612​
92679500​
1458.233684​
1486​
Ming
500000​
555556
0.9
110000000​
197.9998416​
105940000​
190.6918474​
1667​
Qing
118907​
21286​
140193​
0.848​
0.152​
140000000​
998.6233264​
124057400​
884.9043818​

I used the population of the closest year in the wikipedia article, Population History of China, in the first pop. est. and use the smooth linear data based on the same datasource to have the Smooth Est. column. I assumed that 1:9 between Taoist and Buddist priests. The ratio1 and ratio2 represents different population estimates against priest numbers. In the most cases, the ratio is higher than 200:1, while a few cases show that, the ratio in Europe was much higher than that in China: in French Revolution, the ratio for the Catholic Church is 200:1; In Medival England, the ratio was estimated 25:1 - 63:1.

The ratio shows either possibly high volume of unregistered priests in government numbers or less religious population compared to that in Europe. Both represents the weak link between politics and religion in China: the government has little control of religion or the religion is weak in existence and also political influence among the population. Priests are not a standalone class in China as it was in Europe.
 
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I don't think it's a disagreement about syncretisation but rather about the role of the imperial institutional governance in religion. My argument is that the imperial dynasties did not really try to regulate the popular expressions of religion and what the people actually thought or draw lines in it, but rather targeted religious organisations, texts and clergy- divisions that already existed. These were the focal point of patronage and suppression, and a portrayal in-game of splitting Pops along religious lines won't be necessarily beneficial for this or needed. And would be artificial for the reasons I mentioned already.

The Ming dynasty attempted a Daoist renewal and Daoism's involvement with politics was surprisingly free of Confucian influence on the level of Ming princes (see the source on Ming politics and Daoism I posted). Certainly there was a desire to have harmony between Daoism and Confucianism but you didn't really need the imperial governance to arrange that. I haven't seen much proper evidence to your claim that the dynasties necessarily altered religious beliefs as they saw fit. Rather what you see more frequently is multiple strands and currents within a particular religion like Buddhism, and dynasties and emperors promoting those currents they are sympathetic with, while disregarding others either by cutting all support or (in earlier periods, note that this did not occur in the time span of the game in China) trying to dismantle these organised currents. Suppression of religion in China has always been about forcing clergy into lay life or other religions, burning texts and shutting down monasteries. Never about drawing lines, in for example, in Guangdong and deciding that half the people there were Buddhists and require reeducation, which seems to be what you are suggesting.
My study shows absolute minority status of Taoism ever since 7 Century and since then Buddhism has been the dominant religion despite government intervention, so-called renewals. I am strong against the idea of Confucianism as a religion because they have neither theocratic theories nor any priest.

Religions in China are associated with organized crimes and anti-government insurrections. Early Taoists were known for their protests and wars against the authority: Way of the Taiping launched Yellow Turban Rebellion in 184 CE; Way of the Five Pecks of Rice was trying to overtake the capital of Southern Jin dynasty. This is why Taoism was so weak and obedient later on.
 
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Gennerally I think China did not have any organized religious group like a variety of churches and schools in Christianity and Islamic world. The religion is basically kept out of politics as the political leadership were trained with teaching from Confucius: "Working to give the people justice and paying respect to the spirits, but keeping away from them, you can call wisdom." (子曰:务民之义,敬鬼神而远之,可谓知矣。The Analects of Confucius 6:22, Translated by A. Charles Muller)Based on this rule, Confucian governments are supposed to be indifferent to all religions and should not have penalty from herseys or heretics.

I don't believe we should any big tent religion in East Asia or any other places. What I believe in the myth of Chinese religion is that the great majority of population are not religious at all, or to be specific, they have no preference for any religion they know about. Historical data are available for the population who went pravrajana (became a Buddist monk) or became a Taoist from a 2002 paper.

YearDynastyBuddist PriestsTaoist PriestsPriest TotalBuddist shareTaoist shareEst. Pop.Ratio1Smooth Est.Ratio2
736​
Tang
127864​
1764​
129628​
0.986​
0.014​
90000000​
694.2944426​
75594545.45​
583.1652533​
1019​
Song
245770​
17170​
262948​
0.935​
0.065​
60950000​
231.7948796​
70412000​
267.7791807​
1021​
Song
458854​
20337​
479085​
0.958​
0.042​
60950000​
127.221683​
71408000​
149.0507947​
1034​
Song
434262​
20126​
454388​
0.956​
0.044​
60950000​
134.1364649​
77882000​
171.3997729​
1042​
Song
396525​
20182​
416707​
0.952​
0.048​
60950000​
146.2658415​
81866000​
196.4593827​
1068​
Song
254798​
19384​
274182​
0.93​
0.07​
110750000​
403.9287772​
94814000​
345.8067999​
1077​
Song
232564​
19221​
251785​
0.924​
0.076​
110750000​
439.8594039​
99296000​
394.368211​
1157​
Song
200000​
10000​
210000​
0.952​
0.048​
140000000​
666.6666667​
127422500​
606.7738095​
1291​
Yuan
213148​
236831
0.9
75306000​
317.9735761​
76044573.77​
321.0921449​
1372​
Ming
57200​
63556
0.9
81000000​
1274.466612​
92679500​
1458.233684​
1486​
Ming
500000​
555556
0.9
110000000​
197.9998416​
105940000​
190.6918474​
1667​
Qing
118907​
21286​
140193​
0.848​
0.152​
140000000​
998.6233264​
124057400​
884.9043818​

I used the population of the closest year in the wikipedia article, Population History of China, in the first pop. est. and use the smooth linear data based on the same datasource to have the Smooth Est. column. I assumed that 1:9 between Taoist and Buddist priests. The ratio1 and ratio2 represents different population estimates against priest numbers. In the most cases, the ratio is higher than 200:1, while a few cases show that, the ratio in Europe was much higher than that in China: in French Revolution, the ratio for the Catholic Church is 200:1; In Medival England, the ratio was estimated 25:1 - 63:1.

The ratio shows either possibly high volume of unregistered priests in government numbers or less religious population compared to that in Europe. Both represents the weak link between politics and religion in China: the government has little control of religion or the religion is weak in existence and also political influence among the population. Priests are not a standalone class in China as it was in Europe.
Nobody is arguing that the Chinese population that the Chinese population is not religious or that there absolutely is no preference for any particular trend. There certainly were people attached to Chinese Buddhism exclusively or to Daoism or Confucianism exclusively, but on the broader level of the populace, the very varied and very dynamic popular religion of China is not either Buddhist or Daoist and rather intermixes both of these too heavily to be called either or, and also integrates native and distinctly different practices that aren't part of either of them. The same can be said about the governmental belief of Tian- which has Daoist and Confucian associations, and the various yearly rituals, but are distinctively not Buddhist in origin or purpose.

Ultimately, any assessments based on the number of priests and organised clergy are going to be somewhat inaccurate to reflect how the people actually practiced the religion on the day to day. There was a huge familial practice of religion in terms of venerating ancestors and performing offerings and worship of gods and ghosts at home that did not involve any sort of priest. There were practices of other popular forms of worship that did not involve priests, there were religious societies that did not have a true clergy, etc.

My study shows absolute minority status of Taoism ever since 7 Century and since then Buddhism has been the dominant religion despite government intervention, so-called renewals.
I am not sure where you get the information that Daoism shows an absolute minority status since the 7th century. It did not have a huge priesthood and it had a loss of prestige during the Yuan dynasty but, as I've said, that does not reflect its role in society. Here are some sources on Daoism in the Ming dynasty that show its continued relevance:
https://academic.oup.com/book/1664

I am strong against the idea of Confucianism as a religion because they have neither theocratic theories nor any priest.
I've tried not to weigh in whether Confucianism is a religion or not but if you restrict religion only to practices that have priests, you are going to end up reducing the number of world religions by a significant amount. Quakers, some Unitarian Christians, and some forms of traditional ethnic religion in some parts of the world do not have priests or theocratic inclinations. Yet, they undoubtedly are religions. Another point is the prevalence of the idea of the Three Teachings, which see Confucianism as a teaching that runs parallel to Buddhism and Daoism. Ultimately, whether Confucianism is a religion or not is irrelevant to the point I am making but its inaccurate to describe it as a philosophical school in alignment with, or under Buddhism. Either way, this is an interesting article on Confucianism: https://www2.kenyon.edu/Depts/Religion/Fac/Adler/Writings/Confucianism_as_Religious_Tradition.pdf

Religions in China are associated with organized crimes and anti-government insurrections. Early Taoists were known for their protests and wars against the authority: Way of the Taiping launched Yellow Turban Rebellion in 184 CE; Way of the Five Pecks of Rice was trying to overtake the capital of Southern Jin dynasty. This is why Taoism was so weak and obedient later on.
I think anyone that is familiar with Chinese history is aware of the deep relationship that organised religion, insurrectionary movements and organised crime have had with each other. Regardless, your examples are from the 100s. There are more accurate and incisive examples from the 1300s involving the White Lotus and other societies at this period and these are Buddhist and Daoist societies with some having syncretic influences from Manichaeism. Ultimately, all of these are just manifestations of religion gaining a political relevancy among the masses, it is not correct or relevant to claim that all organised religion in China was tied to organised crime and anti-government revolts or seen as being tied to it. Daoism has its origins in the lower strata as I myself have said in my long texts, but it was never restricted to the lower strata, and was deeply influential in politics and in the elite, seen in the sources I've provided.

Your arguments overall, however, don't really tackle my main point, which is that on the level of popular religion and of governance, it is hard to accurately claim that only a single religious practice was followed or that anything was Buddhist exclusively or primarily. I once again point to the two sources I've provided on the issue. These are congruent with past research I've done on the topic.
https://www2.kenyon.edu/Depts/Religion/Fac/Adler/Writings/Chinese Religions - Overview.htm
https://www.amazon.com/Chinese-Religion-Contextual-Xinzhong-Yao/dp/1847064760
 
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"That's not a religion, it's a philosophy/ideology" was a weird argument that I thought died out in the 90s. As if having a thing be state-backed makes it any less applicable as a religion for the purposes of the game's simulation, as if religions don't serve a state-imposed ideological and structural function in the whole rest of the world.
If this was based on the modern era would you make socialdemocracy and neoliberalism religions next to the usual ones?
 
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Nobody is arguing that the Chinese population that the Chinese population is not religious or that there absolutely is no preference for any particular trend. There certainly were people attached to Chinese Buddhism exclusively or to Daoism or Confucianism exclusively, but on the broader level of the populace, the very varied and very dynamic popular religion of China is not either Buddhist or Daoist and rather intermixes both of these too heavily to be called either or, and also integrates native and distinctly different practices that aren't part of either of them. The same can be said about the governmental belief of Tian- which has Daoist and Confucian associations, and the various yearly rituals, but are distinctively not Buddhist in origin or purpose.

Ultimately, any assessments based on the number of priests and organised clergy are going to be somewhat inaccurate to reflect how the people actually practiced the religion on the day to day. There was a huge familial practice of religion in terms of venerating ancestors and performing offerings and worship of gods and ghosts at home that did not involve any sort of priest. There were practices of other popular forms of worship that did not involve priests, there were religious societies that did not have a true clergy, etc.


I am not sure where you get the information that Daoism was a minority since the 7th century. It did not have a huge priesthood and it had a loss of prestige during the Yuan dynasty but, as I've said, that does not reflect its role in society. Here are some sources on Daoism in the Ming dynasty that prove your point wrong:
https://academic.oup.com/book/1664


I've tried not to weigh in whether Confucianism is a religion or not but if you restrict religion only to practices that have priests, you are going to end up reducing the number of world religions by a significant amount. Quakers, some Unitarian Christians, and some forms of traditional ethnic religion in some parts of the world do not have priests or theocratic inclinations. Yet, they undoubtedly are religions. Another point is the prevalence of the idea of the Three Teachings, which see Confucianism as a teaching that runs parallel to Buddhism and Daoism. Ultimately, whether Confucianism is a religion or not is irrelevant to the point I am making but its inaccurate to describe it as a philosophical school in alignment with, or under Buddhism. Either way, this is an interesting article on Confucianism: https://www2.kenyon.edu/Depts/Religion/Fac/Adler/Writings/Confucianism_as_Religious_Tradition.pdf


I think anyone that is familiar with Chinese history is aware of the deep relationship that organised religion, insurrectionary movements and organised crime have had with each other. Regardless, your examples are from the 100s. There are more accurate and incisive examples from the 1300s involving the White Lotus and other societies at this period and these are Buddhist and Daoist societies with some having syncretic influences from Manichaeism. Ultimately, all of these are just manifestations of religion gaining a political relevancy among the masses, it is not correct or relevant to claim that all organised religion in China was tied to organised crime and anti-government revolts or seen as being tied to it. Daoism has its origins in the lower strata as I myself have said in my long texts, but it was never restricted to the lower strata, and was deeply influential in politics and in the elite, seen in the sources I've provided.

Your arguments overall, however, don't really tackle my main point, which is that on the level of popular religion and of governance, it is hard to accurately claim that only a single religious practice was followed or that anything was Buddhist exclusively or primarily. I once again point to the two sources I've provided on the issue. These are congruent with past research I've done on the topic.
https://www2.kenyon.edu/Depts/Religion/Fac/Adler/Writings/Chinese Religions - Overview.htm
https://www.amazon.com/Chinese-Religion-Contextual-Xinzhong-Yao/dp/1847064760
I see no reason to why confucianism should be considered a religion and platonism shouldn't. But to be clear I have a very radical position to what religion even is in a strict sense, in my opinion "religion" only characterizes the romano-christian view on spirituality, hence why western perspectives often fail to understand how muslims feel about "religion", for example. And is a concept that exists in the dychotomy between the religious and the secular, between the church and the "roman law", a division that's most certainly the result of the arrival of eastern monotheism to roman society that prioritized obedience to civil authorities above all, and where religion was a highly institutionalized part of the state. Christianity is the product of roman understandings of the religious and the secular and those concepts can't be projected to other societies in a productive way.
 
I see no reason to why confucianism should be considered a religion and platonism shouldn't. But to be clear I have a very radical position to what religion even is in a strict sense, in my opinion "religion" only characterizes the romano-christian view on spirituality, hence why western perspectives often fail to understand how muslims feel about "religion", for example. And is a concept that exists in the dychotomy between the religious and the secular, between the church and the "roman law", a division that's most certainly the result of the arrival of eastern monotheism to roman society that prioritized obedience to civil authorities above all, and where religion was a highly institutionalized part of the state. Christianity is the product of roman understandings of the religious and the secular and those concepts can't be projected to other societies in a productive way.
As I mentioned in the original post, I think that's a fine opinion to hold, I'm not arguing Confucianism should necessarily be considered a religion. Just that it wasn't somehow magically compatible or subordinate to Buddhism, and it wasn't just restricted to government. Instead, it was part of a broader Chinese religion. In the same way that Platonism was part of a broader 'Greco-Roman religion'.
 
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If this was based on the modern era would you make socialdemocracy and neoliberalism religions next to the usual ones?
In my mind, religion is just another form of ideology that people are possible inactive at. Vicky label a lot of ethno-religious groups politically inactive while there are numerous group who are also religiously inactive. Before the rise and spread of modern nationalism since French Revolution, people may not be interesting in nationwide or even some regional affairs as well as their ethnicity and nationality.
 
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