Tinto Maps #19 - 20th of September 2024 - India

[TGKrayton]

Terrain:
View attachment 1189950
Here we have a new type of topography: Atolls. We added it some months ago, as we worked on finishing the map of the Pacific Ocean, and it will be the last one added to the game.

@Pavía Great work on the cultural and political maps! That said, the vegetation map needs a lot of work. India as a whole has far too little farmland, while regions that were heavily forested at the time (the Sunderbans, eastern Bengal, etc) are shown with grassland instead.

The lack of farmland is the most egregious bit. The Deccan plateau has no farmland at all, despite containing some of India's most fertile soil outside of the northern plains, and being very densely populated during this time period. The region along the Tungabhadra River, in particular, had massive canal and irrigation networks and produced huge surpluses- allowing the city of Vijayanagara to reach a population of over 500k during this era.

The same can be said of regions of western india, though that area is not my field of expertise.





The most egregious bit, though, is that the entire eastern Gangetic plain, stretching from Varasani to Bengal, is shown with absolutely zero farmland at all.

The eastern Ganges is a contender for most fertile region in the entire world, and- both historically and today, is more intensely farmed and densely populated than the western plains (which, by contrast, are almost entirely farmland on the map). The band of farmland that currently stretches from Lahore and across the Doab should extend, uninterrupted, through Patna and into western Bengal.

There's even an argument to be made that virtually the entire Gangetic plain should be nothing but farmland, apart from heavily forested regions in eastern and southern Bengal. While the northern section of the plain was admittedly slightly less rich than the region hugging the main body of the ganges (the strip of land extending from the doab into Varasani, through patna and into bengal), this was due to easier access to irrigation in the regions hugging the river, rather than any real difference in soil quality (the entire plain is comprised of essentially the same quality of alluvium). This is already represented, in game, with the irrigation line of buildings only being able to be constructed in regions that touch major rivers.

These differences are also relative to the extremely high baseline in this area. Essentially any region of the Gangetic plain, during this time period, would have been more intensely farmed and densely populated than the vast majority of european farmlands on the current vegitation map.

At a minimum, however, the region should absolutely not have less farmland than places like Scandinavia and Ireland, like it currently does.

 

[Cephei80]

In Pakistan and probs India too, Kafirs and Kafiristan has no negative connotations even if it is the case in other cultures and languages—I have not lived in Pakistan for a decade so perhaps things have changed, however it is still the term used for the population today to my knowledge.

In fact, I’ve even heard the (incorrect) theory that the Kafir in Kafiristan is a false-cognate with Kafir the Islamic term in Pakistan, as Kafirstanis are, ofc, now mainly Muslims.

i also heard that kafirstan have nothing to do with the term infidel and that even if its the case the locals were never annoyed about it . its not even close to the term berbers vs amazigh . the term berber is only used by foreigners but locals either say shlouh or amazigh.
here we only have kafirs as a name that describe the way of life of the many hindoukush peoples such as kalash who didnt convert till a century ago .
the suggested names of peristan and noursitan as i said are irrelevent and show extreme hypocrisy and bias and attempt of historical distortion because they feel offended in the place of the locals like the many wokes today who try to deform history just to provide justice to groups they assume they need their intervention and they already tried that in vic3 and ck3 too.

 

[Carcossa Castile]

Notes on the Eastern Himalaya hill tribes

(This illustration also includes my suggestions for central Tibet, to be covered in another post)
Purple: British Outer Line before 1914
Green: Mcmahon Line (1914)


Summary of suggestions:

• Adjust borders to fit the outer line, the traditional geo-political border of the region before the McMahon line was introduced (1914)
• Add new locations for Pachakshiri and Dirang
• Add Sharmon with Tawang as capital (or at least a society of pops for the Monpa people)
• Pemako and Dibang should be uncolonized, or owned by Powo
• Walong should have a Mishmi majority

The part of Himalayas between Tibet and Assam, disputed between China and India, is an ethnographically complex region. Despite some economical and political contacts, the hill tribes preserve cultures that remain relatively uninfluenced by Tibetans or Indians, so I believe that they deserve a more unbiased representation in the game.

Part 1 The hills and the plains

Currently, we have the area of Monyul extending into part of the Assam plains, while the areas of Sadiya and Itanagar extend upward to the hilly areas. These borders are not only strange, but also incompatible with the actual geographical and political landscape.

Our know ledge about the early history of the region very much derive from records in the 19th century. There had been a “salt divide” among the hill tribes, roughly along the geographical boundary of the Assam plains and the Himalayan hills. Those living southwards obtain salt from Assam, while those in the north obtain salt from Tibet. Tibetan bronze bells, knives and swords had also reached the tribesmen along the foothill adjacent to British territory.

Before the introduction of the Mcmahon Line in 1914, the British “outer line” is defined along the edge of the plains, which pretty much marked the extent of British political influence, which should be comparable to that of the Kingdoms of Sadiya and Ahom in the 14th century.

The Mcmahon Line, Alastair Lamb

Therefore, I suggest that the areas of Sadiya and Itanagar should not extend into the hills. The regions of Monyul and Assam should be divided along the outer line of the plains. Perhaps this new area can be named after the “Siang” river, for it shares the common indigenous etymology with “Siyom” and “Dibang”. Alternatively, it can be called Lhoyul.

Likewise, it is suggested to determine the market zone of the hill tribes based on the regions of salt trade. The Mishmis obtain salt from Walong, thus should better be included in the market of Chamdo. The Adis trade salt from Nakchu, and should belong to the Lhasa market. The Apa Tanis make their own salt, but in terms of trade, they may still be more close to the Tibetans, rather than the Indians in the South.

The salt trips in Tibet and the Himalayas: extraction and trade in pre-modern times, Santiago Lazcano

Part 2 Tawang

A Historical Study of the Mon Region (India) and its Relation with Tibet and Bhutan (16th - 17th Century)
The Tawang tract is probably the most important trade route in the eastern Himalayas. Now known as Mon, it was historically known as part of Shar-mon (Eastern Mon), a region including the eastern part of Bhutan and the region around Tawang. In the mid-17th century, Bhutan conquered the western part of Sharmon, while the eastern part came under Tibetan Jurisdiction.
Local traditions would claim that the Tibetan prince Gtsang Ma migrated to Monyul in the year 836 and became the legendary ancestor of various petty kings. He first passed through Paro in modern Bhutan, then further reached the region of “shar mon” (eastern mon), reaching La 'og yul gsum (Tawang).
The “Rgyal rigs” (1728) gave the geneology of various petty rulers in Shar-mon, known by the title of “jo bo”. One of them, the rulers of Ber mkhar (towards the east of Tawang), would give rise to the VI Dalai Lama (1683-1706).

Jo Bo Dar rgyas is recorded as a contemporary of Thang stong rgyal po (1385-1464). It would be reasonable to assume that his grandfather, Sangs cung, had ruled in 1337.

Although Shar-mon was divided among petty kings with a complex linguistic background, I suggest that it should be a playable tag, like the nearby region of Lhomon, so as to model the 17th century unification of Bhutan.

ETHNOLINGUISTIC SURVEY OF WESTERNMOST ARUNACHAL PRADESH: A FIELDWORKER’S IMPRESSIONS, Timotheus Adrianus Bodt

Towards the 17th century, Bhutan and Monba influence had extended southwards to the Duar region. I am not intended to get deep into the history of Bhutan in this post, but it is hoped that the shape of locations can be adjusted to make it possible to represent this historical border.

Part 3 Pemako

ETHNOHISTORIC NOTES ON THE ANCIENT TIBETAN KINGDOM OF sPO BO AND ITS INFLUENCE ON THE EASTERN HIMALAYAS, Santiago Lazcano

Concerning Pemako, the point to make is straightforward: the migration of Tibetans to Pemako (padma bkod) only occurred in the 18th century. In 1337, it should be uncolonized and inhabited by hill tribes only.

Part 4 Pachakshiri

Migration narratives, official classifications, and local identities: the Memba of the hidden land of Pachakshiri, Kerstin Grothmann


According to oral traditions, It was founded by Memba (Monba) people in 18th century, slightly earlier than Pemako. It continued to pay tax to Lhasa until 1950s. It would be better to have it as an uncolonized province Instead of being impassible.

Part 5 Dibang

In Abor Jungles, Angus Hamilton

In tinto maps, the location of Dibang is shown to be owned by Chutia, and has a very high development.

However, as discussed in the first part, Chutia (Sadiya) influence is limited to the Mishmi tribes in the plains, and should not extend that far into the Himalayas.

Changing Pattern of Spatio-Social Interrelationship of Hunting Community in Upper Dibang Valley, Arunachal Pradesh, Mohan Sharma

The Dibang area is inhabited by the Idu people (known to Assamese as Mishmi), with trade relations with both Tibet and Sadiya, in which the routes to Tibet are more easily accessible. By the early 20th century, there had been numerous Tibetan settlements and a Tibetan monastery in Mipido, near the modern headquarters of the Dibang valley district.

It would be more historically accurate to leave it uncolonized like the rest of the hill tribes.

Part 6 Zayul and Walong

The location of Walong is shown to have a Tibetan majority population. However, the southern part is actually inhabited by the Deng people (classified as Mishmis).

The Mcmahon Line, Alastair Lamb

The traditional boundary between Zayul and Deng is at the Yepak river, near Menilkrai. In this Chinese Map dating to 1935, the southern part of Walong is included as part of Lhoyul Instead of Zayul. But this location may be too small to add.

In any case, maintaining a road from Sadiya to Walong is extremely difficult, of which even the British failed to achieve in 1912.

Concerning Zayul, it was never part of the Kingdom of Powo. Maybe the local Tibetan rulers can be represented as a Zayul tag, like in ck3.

References

Hamilton, A. (1912). In Abor Jungles : Being an Account of the Abor Expedition, the Mishmi Mission and the Miri Mission.

Lamb, A. (1966). The McMahon line : a study in the relations between India, China and Tibet, 1904-1914.

Barpujari H.K. (1970). Problem of the Hill Tribes: North-East Frontier 1822-42.

Lazcano, S. (2005). Ethnohistoric Notes on the Ancient Tibetan Kingdom of sPo bo and its influence on the Eastern Himalayas.

Grothmann, K. (2012). Migration narratives, official classifications, and local identities: the Memba of the hidden land of Pachakshiri.

Bodt, TA. (2014). Ethnolinguistic survey of westernmost Arunachal Pradesh: A fieldworker’s impressions.

Lobsang, T. (2016). A Historical Study of the Mon Region (India) and its Relation with Tibet and Bhutan (16th - 17th Century). Dissertation. Universität Leipzig, Leipzig. Fakultät für Geschichte, Kunst- und Orientwissenschaften.

Mantche, C. (2020). “Cross-border trade of Assam with special reference to trade fairs during the colonial rule.” International Journal of Multidisciplinary Research and Development, Volume 7, Issue 5, 2020, Pages 01-05

Sharma, M. (2020). Changing Pattern of Spatio-Social Interrelationship of Hunting Community in Upper Dibang Valley, Arunachal Pradesh. Doctoral dissertation.

Lazcano, S. (2022). “The salt trips in Tibet and the Himalayas: extraction and trade in pre- modern times”, Revue d'Etudes Tibétaines, no. 65, Octobre 2022.

 

[LinkLuver01]

Religions
Religious traditions in India are just as diverse as its cultures! Please consider that although many things are considered 'Hindu,' Hindu is a catchall term for Indian Folk Religion. Although my specialty is in Iron Age India which has much deeper divides, I would recommend you at least consider splitting off the niche Non-Vedic Indian religions. I acknowledge my bias as a Lahori born person, and accept criticism and disagreements on that take.

Ajivika

• This religion survived in Southern India with origins spanning back to predate Buddhism. It is a Shramanic faith that rejects the idea of Samsara and rejects the idea of all Sin in general, as well as embraces Atomist ideas by this point (merging much with the Charvaka faith which I will get to later. Some of the last mentions of Ajivika can really be found with Mallisena and Haribhadra (late 1292~ce), a Jaina and a Buddhist. This does, unfortunately, mean we know very little about Ajivika from first hand Ajivika accounts, but, nonetheless, in a dialogue these two seem to have brought up the Ajivikas as a point, referring to them as if they still existed. The dialogue in question is as follows: "For instance, thefollowers of the Ajıvika theory say: “The cognoscenti who are the makers of the passage (ford) to the morallaw, having reached the highest destination, return again to existence onaccount of the abuse (maltreatment) of the pathway (ford)." (Piotr Balcerowicz, Fragments from the Ājīvikas).
• As a small followup to that, I'd like to add that A.L. Basham seems to be misattributed as saying that the existence of Ajivika is directly mentioned in Sri Mallisenasauri's Syadvadamajari--this is not the case, instead it is written that Ajivika is mentioned by Mallisena who wrote said book. In several places I've seen this and I don't want to promote the misinformation that it's said in the text. I read the text, it literally does not mention them.
• "Like Varāhamihira he gives a catalogue of seven types of ascetic: the Vānaprastha, an ascetic dwelling in forests and mountains; the Vivasas, habitually naked; the Bhikṣu, an eleandān and a great soul wise in Upanisadic lore; the Cārvāka, one who wanders to many lands; the Sākya, a yogi of evil habits; the Guru, honoured and of royal fortune; and the Jīvaka, fond of food and talkative." (referencing astrologer Vaidyanatha who was born somewhere between 1425-1450 ce or earlier), This is quoted from A.L. Basham's book about Ajivika history and doctrines. While the study I mention earlier disputes many of the specific doctrines, I have found no dispute over this particular passage, I do recommend reading the whole subchapter and then comparing it with the study "Fragments from the Ajvikas," however I can also clarify further here, idk how this works, this is my first like response here. Anyways, the Jivaka referenced there by Varamahira are the Ajivika--I'll mention that the description fo them as talkative seems completely derogatory and perhaps not even that true, Ajivika is unfortunately only written about by Jaina and Buddhists so we lack a lot of their details (though we know plenty of their broader ideas, especially that of Niyati and Atomism.)
• Now for where to actually put the last Ajivikas. A.L. Basham posits that the greatest Ajivika community in the last Ajivika period should be the Palar River region (west of Chennai). He also provides a map, which I will link in this post as an image, however I will note that A.L. Basham is a bit of an optimist when it comes to Ajivika, thus I would recommend not really making it a majority anywhere and restrict it closer to the Palar River region and Chola Nadu, he often makes a few jumps and calls ppl Ajivika when they may not be, which explains the wide range he gives. Oh, and absolutely no area should be a majority. This religion is truly on its last legs.
• Ah I should also mention, Ajivika = Acuva = Jivika, there are quite a few names for these guys, but they are typically referred to in English as Ajivika.

Carvaka/Lokayata.

• As a fan of Iron Age India, no religion is quite as surprising to still be in existence past Imperator Rome's end date than Carvaka. It had a revival period in the late Indian Medieval age and was much less discriminated against than the Ajivikas, which makes them easier to find. In the Mallisenasauri's Syadvadamajari written in the 13th CE, possibly as late as 1292, he dedicates a whole chapter (XX) to criticize the Lokayatas, or the Loykotas (in which he also calls them as Carvaka, and also is translated as Laukayatikas as well).
• The Sarvadarśanasaṅgraha, a Vedic book about the 16 philosophical systems mentions the Loykotas or Carvakas (Lokayata, Lokayatika) and is literally like our best source for Carvaka beliefs. Now, the argument against this religion would be that it's simply been absorbed into Vedic tradition by this point, which is not without precedence as there is evidence to assume that Carvaka may predate Shramanic faiths in general, evolving from Vedic philosophy before becoming more associated with Shramanic faiths during the Mahajanapada era. I mention this to also shoot it down, as the other 15 philosophies mentioned include Jainism and Buddhism both. Frankly speaking, the evidence for Carvaka takes much less to explain and is far easier an addition. The final piece of proof I feel that I should dd is the aforementioned book in this point is attributed to a few different philosophers, all dated to the late 1300s. The primary candidate for authorship of this, Mādhavāchārya, born in 1296, making him a mere middle aged man by the start date for Project Caesar.
• For naming this faith, I'd suggest Lokāyata, as by this point it seems that it was mainly referred to as this, and probably less derogatory as than Carvaka would be, although if going for familiarity, Carvaka remains the most common way to refer to this faith in the English language (although several translations still say it as Lokayata).

Additional Religions and Notes

• Perhaps some of my peers in this forum can help fill out more religions, as for me I'd like to recommend a few more without as much research done as I am dead tired after doing these two
• Sarnaism - The religion of several Adivasi groups of the east, notably excluding the Bhil but certainly including the Santal and also the Munda. This religion is not actually considered a Hindu religion by the Republic of India currently, which speaks to its unique nature. It is a religion of sacred groves, and likely falls under 'animist,' but there are 5 million adherents to Sarnaism today, nearly as much as the entirety of Laos (greatest adherants of Satsana Phi). I believe it deserves to be represented.
• Koyapunem - The religion of the Gonds, it's an absolutely fascinating faith, and is considered a non-Hindu faith by the current Republic of India, with over a million modern followers, one can only expect 700 or so years ago it had a presence too. I love the Adivasi, tysm for representing them in the game.
• Masto - The Masto faith, believed by the Dards is an interesting one. It was first considered a Hindu faith of the Kshatriyas of the Dards in the Khas region near Kashmir, however it was later unconsidered a Hindu faith, and then later reconsidered one. It's a bit of a mess, but worth looking into, especially given the Khasa people play an important role in Nepal. The Masto tradition is today considered a Hindu faith by the Republic of India, however I argue it has a unique place in history and should be represented separately from mainline Vedic Hinduism. It exists today in the same regions as it would have then, the Himilayan mountains, revolving around their 12 Masto gods.
• Kafiristan Faith - Kafiristan was not Islamisized until far later, as indicated by its name. Although some did convert to Islam, Kafirs and also Kalash people did not on the whole do so, and Islam was probably the minority until the 19th century. Instead I HIGHLY recommend not making them Hindu, but instead a new faith. They incorporated many elements of Indo-Iranic traditions that are entirely separate to Vedic Hinduism. As you are likely well aware, the Nuristani language family is a unique branch of the Indo-Iranic languages, and this too carries over in their faith. It is both Hindu-esque, Iran polytheist-esque, and its own thing. This religion could reasonably be labeled as Nuristani with majorities in the Kafiristan regions and lower majorities in the Kalash regions.
• Bahkti Movement - I don't know enough about this so I can't reasonably say much about it other than that it spread specifically during the Delhi Sultanate. I believe it is a part of Hinduism, though I'm not sure. It originated in Tamilikam in the 9th cen and spread in the 14th to 17th cen.
• Zoroastrianism - I'm pretty confident someone else more knowledgeable than me on Mazdayasna in India will comment, all I know is that they existed during this time and the Parsi are really cool and I'd love to see them.

I wanna make another post on culture, but this post is quite lengthy as is, so I think I will do so in a future date. Plz updoot so PDX sees my crazy 14th cen Bharati and South Indian religion hyper-fixation and adds it

 

[akshitgaur1239]

Uttarkashi in Garhwal should be renamed to Banahat (or Barahat) as Uttarkashi is avery modern name, closer to Independence of India. Will post a detailed review later.

 

[Clyde Wallach]

Add the Tamang and Gurung cultures. Break up Punjabi and probably also Bengali.

Assamese is way too far to the west. And it should be called Kamarupi, since this is before the expansion of the Ahom kingdom (and the name Ahom/Assam along with it).

The names of the doabs in the Punjab all date to the time of Akbar and are therefore anachronistic.

Kābul province should be Kabulistan.

Meghalaya is a term coined in the 20th century.

Create a new province of Paktia out of Gardēz, Khost, Zarghun Shahr, and Urgun. The rest of Ġaznī province should be Zabulistan.

Nepal was just the name of the valley that Kathmandu is in, which was extended to a large swath of the Himalayan foothills after the Gorkhas moved their capital there and proceeded to create an empire.

Rajputana should be Rajasthan.

The Bengal Sea and Bengal Bay should be switched.

 

[akshitgaur1239]

There will be some sort of cultural conversion like eu4 or assimilation like vic 3 .I am pretty sure they have pretty much already thought about this issue .There was option to revive lost culture in eu4 .So i dont see why u cant spawn new culture.

Regarding your question you and i have already answered everything but let me list the similarity between the two people:

1.Geographic Proximity​

• They are both located in the Himalayan region, which contributes to shared cultural and environmental aspects. They both experience similar high-altitude, mountainous terrain.

2. Ethnic and Cultural Links​

• They (such as the Pahari ethnic group) share same ethnic roots. Both groups are predominantly Indo-Aryan(khas-aryan to be specific).
• Both regions have a strong sense of Pahadi (hill people) identity, often tied to the rugged mountainous lifestyle.

3. Languages​

• There are some similarities in terms of structure and vocabulary, especially given their common roots(khas prakriti).

4. Religion and Festivals​

• Hinduism is the religion for both and both people celebrate major Hindu festivals like Dashain (in Nepal) and Dussehra (in Garhwal), along with Tihar in Nepal and Diwali in Garhwal.
• Both cultures also have local deities and traditional religious practices that are deeply tied to the land and environment.

5. Traditional Dress and Attire​

• Women in Garhwal traditionally wear ghagra-choli, similar to traditional Nepali attire like the gunyu cholo for women.

6. Similar Economies​

• Both have same economies traditionally based on agriculture, animal husbandry, and handicrafts. The mountainous terrain makes large-scale agriculture difficult, so terraced farming is common in both places.

7. Migration and Shared Borders​

• Historically, there has been migration and interaction between these people resulting in some shared cultural practices, though each has its distinct national identity. In fact they have shared rulers for more than 400 years (under katyuri kingdom as uou yourself mentioned).

1. The Himalayas stretch over a very long region and claiming them to be in geographical proximity does not sit right with me. Moreover, Garhwal and Kumaon Himalayas lack the large valleys of Nepal such as Kathmandu. These valleys were a major reason why Kathmandu valley was so prosperous. Both Garhwal and Kumaon became prosperous despite these limitations, not with it. Removing them from the equation downplays their achievments for sure.
2. The Pahari ethnic group that you speak of can only be claimed to stretch from Garhwal (maybe Himachal too) to Doti at best. The reason being the tradition of Jagar. Mahasu devta is venerated from Himachal to Doti only. These traditions, which are a very major part of the culture, predate the origin of Panwaras (not Panwars, the dynasty but songs and puja similar in style and derived from Jagars) which themselves originated a little after the unification of Garhwal. This indicates that Jagars must have existed long before then to have spread around the entire region.
3. As evident by the inscriptions of the Panwars, Katyuris, Chands and those of the Nepal region, the language had diverged enough by this point to not be understandable to each other.
4. As given in point 2, Jagar is a major component of the religion and this does not appear in Nepal (except Doti of course). Furthermore, dusshera is not a major festival in Garhwal, rather festivals like Fuldei are a lot more prominent which again are not there in Nepal. Diwali is major festival in nearly the entire Indian subcontinent, so no point there.
5. Similar attire does not equate to same culture, English and the people of France, Awadhis and Marathis and Bengalis too have similar attire but distinct cultures.
6. In medieval period, this was the state of economy the enitre world over. As for terraced farming, every mountainous farming community uses it, even in the americas, so again no point there.
7. Migration does inject new ideas into the culture but is not enough to make two cultures homogenise. As for the Katyuris, while the Kumaon region was administered more or less directly, Garhwal region was left to the devices of Garhpatis who were more-or-less independent as evident by the existence of fortress deep in the interior and surrounded by many such fortresses in very close vicinity.

That is why I think they should remain seperate cultures.

 

[Preußisch Reich]

Finally!!! Its my home region.[BENGAL] [although my hometown isnt there but thats historical it wasnt prominent in 1337]
1. How cold is subtropical? Northern-most bengal and bhutan[Sources: Hill-stations in there; Darjeeling(look at temperature in summer btwn Darjeeling and siliguri); https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Climate_of_West_Bengal] having same climate as Uttar pradesh is weird.[No i dont mean the Artic region There should be a strip in between that and subtropical]
2. Culture of North Bengal should be rajbanshi and not assamese[Assamese Kingdoms were further east, source:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assamese_language#Geographical_distribution , https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahom_kingdom#Culture]{The assamese almost dont exist in north bengal in modern day so it couldnt have been culture conversion plus they are mongoloid race(not a racist) which is a different race from bengalis and rajbangshis so some evidence would've remained in form of assamese minority}
3. All of bengal being grassland is weird. Kolkata[modern day capital of west bengal was a village surrounded by forest when the british started establishing it] and the sunderbans[mangroves] are two examples[source : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sundarbans , https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kolkata#History]. And while west midnapore is a bit arid and sandy rest of midnapore and most of south bengal would be farmlands/forests[especially tribal areas;or woods idk the density but it wasnt grasslands]{EU4 does better represntation of this}

 

[klime]

Can we get more detailed maps of Maldives and Lakshadweep?
Even in the closer map provided it is very difficult to tell exactly which areas are grouped together and which are separate locations that aren't displaying their labels.

 

[PerhapsItsChondoLal]

Add the Tamang and Gurung cultures. Break up Punjabi and probably also Bengali.

How would you break Bengali? Bengali, Sylheti, Chatgayi?

 

[PerhapsItsChondoLal]

1. Historically, it was known to be a large Sal (Shorea robusta) forest. Even today, a substantial section of that region is covered in forest. The primary resource there should be timber.​

Hey, could you give me a source? I've been creating a masterpost for Bengal, and would appreciate if I could add information I was not aware of.

 

[PerhapsItsChondoLal]

I can’t really read any of the countries in Kerala.

Bottom one is Venad, no idea about the rest.

 

[PerhapsItsChondoLal]

THE GREAT BENGALI PROVINCE POST
I'm pretty sure someone saw the mint city list, because I see many of them represented
The first gripe I have is that all the provinces are weirdly...vertical? IDK but if they were more like, say, Rampur Boalia than Jalpaiguri I think it would be better.

SUB-HIMALAYAS AND THE DOOARS
Both Siliguri, Panchagarh and Jalpaiguri are badly designed. They include hilly areas such as Darjeeling as well as the fertile Teesta lowlands. My suggestion would be to divide them into 4 provinces:

Either merge the northernmost province with Dalingkot, or name it Dorje-ling (the endonym for Darjeeling). Make it hills.
Rename Siliguri to Shilchaguri, a more period appropriate name.
Rename Panchagarh to Bhitargarh, as the province in-game contains only Bhitargarh and not the other four eponymous ruined fort cities (Panchagarh literally means five forts). Bhitargarh remained important till the 17th century:

Bhitargarh later fell into the Khen Kingdom and then into the Koch Kingdom and continued to serve as a trading hub till the seventeenth century.

Jalpaiguri is wrong, but what to replace it with is tricky as we have very few records. Jaldapara or Gorumara might work.
Birpara is quite new, and may be renamed to semi-unknown capital of Attharokotha or Attharokoth. Koch Bihar is fine but if you want a less confusing name you might go with Guriahati.

Rup Narayan, on the advice of an unknown saint, transferred the capital from Attharokotha to Guriahati (now called Cooch Behar town) on the banks of the Torsa river.

Now it's best to change the jungle in North Bengal to forest, since the Dooars forests aren't really your tropical/sub-tropical jungle.

Finally, coming to the areas. No offence, but they are really bad. Devkot stretches too much. Jalpaiguri doesn't have the neighbouring town of Siliguri. Baro Bhuiyan is named after a zamindari alliance instead of a geographical or historical region????????? My suggestion:

The eastern one is Kamata and the western one is Kamrup. This is based in history, as evidenced by MR Tarafdar's Husain Shahi Bengal - in which we find mention of Alauddin Husain Shah conquering the areas of Kamata and Kamrup. Give the Darjeeling province to Sikkim.
(On a tangent, Kachari is a bad name as the region itself is called Kachar. You may go with that or Barak Valley (or Brasa, the native name) since Kachar or Cachar is not really a historical city)

Will come back with more when I return home!

 

[Clyde Wallach]

How would you break Bengali? Bengali, Sylheti, Chatgayi?

I hadn't given it much thought, hence the "probably." Perhaps something based on the historical divisions of Bengal.

File:Ancient Political Divisions.jpg - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

 

[Ru8bin]

1. The Himalayas stretch over a very long region and claiming them to be in geographical proximity does not sit right with me. Moreover, Garhwal and Kumaon Himalayas lack the large valleys of Nepal such as Kathmandu. These valleys were a major reason why Kathmandu valley was so prosperous. Both Garhwal and Kumaon became prosperous despite these limitations, not with it. Removing them from the equation downplays their achievments for sure.

I was talking about similarity between those two people so of course they are in geographic proximity i.e the Himalayas .so of course its common among them. Khas have no relation with the valley of Katmandu.The Nepal valley were ruled by Newar Malla and khas were ruled by khas malla .So no similarity there at all .In fact khasas and newars always fough with each other .Also idk what achievement you are talking about but its unrelated here since the latter gharwal and kumaon doesnot exist in 1337 AD .They probably made those region a unified country because of lack of record and technical reason(due to having 50+ small principality) .In fact there is not much record about the khasa Pradesh except made by khasas in that era .Prove me if i am wrong.

2. The Pahari ethnic group that you speak of can only be claimed to stretch from Garhwal (maybe Himachal too) to Doti at best. The reason being the tradition of Jagar. Mahasu devta is venerated from Himachal to Doti only. These traditions, which are a very major part of the culture, predate the origin of Panwaras (not Panwars, the dynasty but songs and puja similar in style and derived from Jagars) which themselves originated a little after the unification of Garhwal. This indicates that Jagars must have existed long before then to have spread around the entire region.

There you go .You disagree with me but give me arguments to support my claim. You yourself agree that Pahari ethnic group does strech from Himachal to Garhwal to western Nepal(ie Doti).Thanks for bringing about mahasu devata(i forgot to add it in my claim) because mahasu devata(called masto in present Nepal) is very much venerated even in today throughout Nepal by Pahadi of khas-aryan heritage. A quick google search will prove that .More than 40% of Nepali particularly the west of Nepal valley venerate Masto.So it seems there is one more thing in common

3. As evident by the inscriptions of the Panwars, Katyuris, Chands and those of the Nepal region, the language had diverged enough by this point to not be understandable to each other.

Exactly the inscription by khasas like katyuri ,khas malla and khas feadetory like chand provides even strong evidence of their khas origin. I do however agree that the panwars might no be khas especially since the royal dynasty of Garhwal started with Kanak Pal, the prince of Malwa (present day Madhya Pradesh).On his visit to the Badrinath Temple, met Raja Bhanu Pratap, the ruler of Chandpur Garhi, one of the 52 Garhs of Garhwa who gave him his daughter and his domain. Considering he was just son-in-law and foreigner ,he must probably accepted the local customs .Nevertheless this doesnot change much in bigger picture since the panwar were restricted to small domain until the reign of ajay pal.

4. As given in point 2, Jagar is a major component of the religion and this does not appear in Nepal (except Doti of course). Furthermore, dusshera is not a major festival in Garhwal, rather festivals like Fuldei are a lot more prominent which again are not there in Nepal. Diwali is major festival in nearly the entire Indian subcontinent, so no point there.

Again there might be some localised festival even in same culture .And the major component is present in khas kingdom.idk why you keep talking about Nepal in 1337ad (cause there was no Nepal at that time). so i am assuming you are talking about khas kingdom.

5. Similar attire does not equate to same culture, English and the people of France, Awadhis and Marathis and Bengalis too have similar attire but distinct cultures.

Of course it does not equate but it supports.

6. In medieval period, this was the state of economy the enitre world over. As for terraced farming, every mountainous farming community uses it, even in the americas, so again no point there.

Just as in 1 ,i wanted to just answer your qn regarding the similarity as in general .

7. Migration does inject new ideas into the culture but is not enough to make two cultures homogenise. As for the Katyuris, while the Kumaon region was administered more or less directly, Garhwal region was left to the devices of Garhpatis who were more-or-less independent as evident by the existence of fortress deep in the interior and surrounded by many such fortresses in very close vicinity.

Like you said in point 6 ,similarly The whole world was semi autonoumous due to feudalism .There was never a direct rule by the kings over much larger territory even more so by khas in rugged and difficult terrain like the kumaon and gharwal.When the chands were defeated by khas ,they simply made them their feudatory as evident in the inscription .


I guess where the confusion comes from though regrading the khasas.Even i had no idea about khasas until long ago .Specially since the mediaval history was not mucn recovered of this region. Since the Government of Nepal emphasizes its Pahadi citizen as khas-arya for electorcal purposes ,you might be confused to join khasa only with Nepal especially since Wikipedia only show Nepali Pahadi as khas .
Another reason is Nepal flourished its Pahadi culture under khas rulers while their counterparts were enchroached by foriegners like British ,Mughals and others. You might want to read this reddit post by a fellow from Uttarakhand who explains about their khas origin.
Katyuri dynasty of Uttarakhand

I will not argue anymore in this topic since i dont think i have any more evidence to add .Unless you bring some factual historical eveidenve that say otherwise .Also try to see from the perspective of 1337AD and not the modern concept of nation state .I assume you are gharwali so you are fixated on the presence of "gharwali" as distinct culture .Its still possible for there to be gharwali culture maybe after they are unified by the player later in the game and there can be something like assimilation mechanic like Victoria 3 or divergence like ck3 .Since the game is much longer than eu4 i am optimistic about it .

 

[Universe2711]

As an Indian who played EU4 regularly, I have a few suggestions/requests
1. Please let the Hindu states to reclaim their predecessors' glory prior to The Delhi Sultanate conquering them. Since this is the beginning of Islam in India it's an extremely tumultuous time in the region with culture and religion. Please let Kashmiris reclaim Karkota dynasty, kannadigas the Rashtrakutas or Chalukyas, Bundelis/Awadhis reclaim Chandela territories,Tamils reclaim Cholas, Bengalis the Palas or the Senas, Gujarati/Rajasthani/Sindis reclaim Gurjaras. Upper Indus region with the Gandharas etc. Just a bit of research and you'll find most Indian cultures had larger dynasties that they still have a bit of reminiscence.
2. Kashi/Varanasi is essentially the spiritual capital of Hinduism and the Hoysala strife against the sultanate with regards to safe passage of pilgrims, dodging the jizya by giving an entire village's income is a wonderful and painful story and one of many, so I definitely believe atleast the medium to large Hindu states to have a claim on kashi.
3. Assuming monuments are still a thing, Delhi is in the making of destroying several Jain and Hindu temples to make the Qutub Minar, again kindly let Hindus rebuild monuments that give some boost to them a tiny example would be Martanda Sun Temple in Kashmir.
4. A few mistakes with names I noticed:
a. Karnakassala to Karu Nadu (just like Tamil Nadu)
b. Orissan to Odissi
c. The hilly region between upper Indus(Kashmir essentially) and Nepal should be Pahad not punjab.
d. Not sure about the placement of Assamese culture, it should be east of Bodo not West.
5. A couple of fun achievements would be the Char Dhams(conquering all four major pilgrimages for easy movement of devotees). Vij being perfectly set up for an Indian Ocean Mare Nostrum. The Coorgi/Kodava people being the martial clan Swiss mercernary type of people of South India. Etcetc
That's it for now from my end. Thank you I love guys at Paradox ❤❤❤❤

 

[nyetflix2]

This region is going to be a lot of fun to play in. I will say, I'd like to see a bit more location density in the Deccan region.

 

[bluepotato81]

this is probably a bug and probably has been pointed out, but what the hell is this?

 

[SafS.99]

Kabul and Balkh were recently destroyed by the mongols

Even if they were razed, they would’ve been rebuilt due to Trade, especially Kabul which was very important for trade across the mountains.

I’m guessing they creates the Development map from guess work, and seeing as how the Punjab area was developed and prosperous at the time, they gave lots of development to the surrounding areas too which included Kafiristan.

Realistically tho, Kafiristan or Nuristan would’ve been dark red, so isolated that they retained their thousands year old Indo-Aryan religion and wouldn’t even come under government control until 1896.

 

[MadWorkEthic]

There should be Malabar Jews and Syriac Christians in the Kerala region of India, primarily around the City of Kochi/Cochin (however you choose to Anglicise it). The Malabar Jews have been there since the time of King Solomon, and the Syriac Christians arrived in the 1st Century AD (allegedly led by Thomas the Apostle, although that part is likely untrue).