Tinto Maps #19 - 20th of September 2024 - India

[Cephei80]

The thick, slightly off-color borders on the location map cause visual clutter and make the name itself feel constricted, while combined with the lack of a solid thin black border makes the map feel blurry,

Kabul and Balkh were recently destroyed by the mongols, but yeah that doesn't explain them being LESS developed then Kafiristan.

even carthage respawned after that Rome destroyed it .
baghdad too .
the cities you mentioned kept existing thus their presence in the game is mandatory . the only difference is that they should have low population and development but if you notice all of persia and iraq have low population and development because the mongols nuked them just 50 years prior so they fully heal till few centuries later

 

[Cephei80]

There should be Malabar Jews and Syriac Christians in the Kerala region of India, primarily around the City of Kochi/Cochin (however you choose to Anglicise it). The Malabar Jews have been there since the time of King Solomon, and the Syriac Christians arrived in the 1st Century AD (allegedly led by Thomas the Apostle, although that part is likely untrue).

no one said there is no malabar jews there . there is simply no majority of them . even in areas known for having lot of jews in andalusia and morocco when we see the percentage we find less than 10%
do not confuse reputation of having a minority with majorities . Syriacs also are like 5 to 30% at any given time in most areas even during byzantium . same goes for assyrians who quickly became minority in their own lands following kurdish migrations.
so if you expect syriacs and assyrians and jews you will find them as a percentage in most areas but not as the majority shown in the map . assyrians though seems to be at least a majority in some few locations.
a region also doesnt become contested like till the minority reach a high a percentage

 

[Ru8bin]

View attachment 1189949

Observing the geography of area Nepal , I am astonished. The Pahadis (hill people) seem to lack the hills that define their identity. It's reminiscent of a white man claiming to be black. How wonderfully ironic is that?

 

[MadWorkEthic]

no one said there is no malabar jews there . there is simply no majority of them . even in areas known for having lot of jews in andalusia and morocco when we see the percentage we find less than 10%
do not confuse reputation of having a minority with majorities . Syriacs also are like 5 to 30% at any given time in most areas even during byzantium . same goes for assyrians who quickly became minority in their own lands following kurdish migrations.
so if you expect syriacs and assyrians and jews you will find them as a percentage in most areas but not as the majority shown in the map . assyrians though seems to be at least a majority in some few locations.
a region also doesnt become contested like till the minority reach a high a percentage

The fact that they weren't mentioned at all in the DD does concern me. I never said they were a majority. I don't know at what percentage they become a striped minority on the map, so I don't know if they should even be represented, but the silence in the DD is slightly concerning. I just wanted to mention it in case the dev team overlooked it. They should be there, is all I was saying.

 

[Cephei80]

The fact that they weren't mentioned at all in the DD does concern me. I never said they were a majority. I don't know at what percentage they become a striped minority on the map, so I don't know if they should even be represented, but the silence in the DD is slightly concerning. I just wanted to mention it in case the dev team overlooked it. They should be there, is all I was saying.

i think they will , maybe not mentioned because they will be like plenty minorities as show or stated previously ? idk where to find it anymore but they will be like a detailed graph or something where you can see the percentage of each minority in regions , probably same will work with religion and cultures

 

[akshitgaur1239]

I was talking about similarity between those two people so of course they are in geographic proximity i.e the Himalayas .so of course its common among them. Khas have no relation with the valley of Katmandu.The Nepal valley were ruled by Newar Malla and khas were ruled by khas malla .So no similarity there at all .In fact khasas and newars always fough with each other .Also idk what achievement you are talking about but its unrelated here since the latter gharwal and kumaon doesnot exist in 1337 AD .They probably made those region a unified country because of lack of record and technical reason(due to having 50+ small principality) .In fact there is not much record about the khasa Pradesh except made by khasas in that era .Prove me if i am wrong.

There you go .You disagree with me but give me arguments to support my claim. You yourself agree that Pahari ethnic group does strech from Himachal to Garhwal to western Nepal(ie Doti).Thanks for bringing about mahasu devata(i forgot to add it in my claim) because mahasu devata(called masto in present Nepal) is very much venerated even in today throughout Nepal by Pahadi of khas-aryan heritage. A quick google search will prove that .More than 40% of Nepali particularly the west of Nepal valley venerate Masto.So it seems there is one more thing in common

Exactly the inscription by khasas like katyuri ,khas malla and khas feadetory like chand provides even strong evidence of their khas origin. I do however agree that the panwars might no be khas especially since the royal dynasty of Garhwal started with Kanak Pal, the prince of Malwa (present day Madhya Pradesh).On his visit to the Badrinath Temple, met Raja Bhanu Pratap, the ruler of Chandpur Garhi, one of the 52 Garhs of Garhwa who gave him his daughter and his domain. Considering he was just son-in-law and foreigner ,he must probably accepted the local customs .Nevertheless this doesnot change much in bigger picture since the panwar were restricted to small domain until the reign of ajay pal.

Again there might be some localised festival even in same culture .And the major component is present in khas kingdom.idk why you keep talking about Nepal in 1337ad (cause there was no Nepal at that time). so i am assuming you are talking about khas kingdom.

Of course it does not equate but it supports.

Just as in 1 ,i wanted to just answer your qn regarding the similarity as in general .

Like you said in point 6 ,similarly The whole world was semi autonoumous due to feudalism .There was never a direct rule by the kings over much larger territory even more so by khas in rugged and difficult terrain like the kumaon and gharwal.When the chands were defeated by khas ,they simply made them their feudatory as evident in the inscription .


I guess where the confusion comes from though regrading the khasas.Even i had no idea about khasas until long ago .Specially since the mediaval history was not mucn recovered of this region. Since the Government of Nepal emphasizes its Pahadi citizen as khas-arya for electorcal purposes ,you might be confused to join khasa only with Nepal especially since Wikipedia only show Nepali Pahadi as khas .
Another reason is Nepal flourished its Pahadi culture under khas rulers while their counterparts were enchroached by foriegners like British ,Mughals and others. You might want to read this reddit post by a fellow from Uttarakhand who explains about their khas origin.
Katyuri dynasty of Uttarakhand

I will not argue anymore in this topic since i dont think i have any more evidence to add .Unless you bring some factual historical eveidenve that say otherwise .Also try to see from the perspective of 1337AD and not the modern concept of nation state .I assume you are gharwali so you are fixated on the presence of "gharwali" as distinct culture .Its still possible for there to be gharwali culture maybe after they are unified by the player later in the game and there can be something like assimilation mechanic like Victoria 3 or divergence like ck3 .Since the game is much longer than eu4 i am optimistic about it .

1. You do not seem to be getting my point about geographical proximity. I give you why the Himalayas differ in Garhwal, Kumaon and the Nepali region (yes I know that Nepal does not exist in 1337, rather I was referring to the area that modern Nepal occupies, that is why I have been excluding Doti explicitly you know) and you make no counter-point to it rather going on a separate tangent.
2. I was not aware of Mahasu devta being worshipped in Nepal, so thanks for bringing that to my attention. BUT, mahasu devta is not a major component in culture, mostly venerated by the Jaunsaris not Garhwalis. The main thing in that point was the Jagars, which you conveniently ignore on multiple occasions. And please do not claim that they are a small local thing, because as I said they form the core of the religious belief of the people, thus again, separating them from the rest.
3.The inscription point was never about their origin, I know Katyuris were Khasas. They were about the divergence of language. For example, the inscription in Devalgarh, dated to 1335 is one of the earliest evidence of Garhwali language. You again ignored my point and went on a tangent.
4.Fuldei is not a minor festival fyi and dusshera not a major one, I was just making you aware that the point you made was not based on any facts.
5. For the autonomy and feudalism part, you again ignore my point. Kumaon was more or less directly administered and Garhwal left to its own devices, taking them on two distinct paths. In Kumaon, the people established stability and prosperity while Garhwal was under constant raids from within.

References- Garhwal ka Itihaas by Pt. Harikrishna Raturi
Uttarakhand ka Naveen Itihaas by Yashwant Singh Katoch

 

[L1nk48]

great job, are the aborigines represented in the Sentinel Islands and will it be possible to play as them?

 

[Cruxador]

they said they will be storms and moonsoons but i guess thats all we know for now as Johan stated he will make a TT about storms and moonsoons later .
but its good that they exist , i wonder how visually they will look like

Thanks! I must have missed it

 

[Ispil]

Even if they were razed, they would’ve been rebuilt due to Trade, especially Kabul which was very important for trade across the mountains.

I’m guessing they creates the Development map from guess work, and seeing as how the Punjab area was developed and prosperous at the time, they gave lots of development to the surrounding areas too which included Kafiristan.

Realistically tho, Kafiristan or Nuristan would’ve been dark red, so isolated that they retained their thousands year old Indo-Aryan religion and wouldn’t even come under government control until 1896.

I mentioned it in the development thread, but Balkh was still very much in ruins at this point. Can't speak to Kabul, though.

 

[Flower_Marlin]

View attachment 1191027
this is probably a bug and probably has been pointed out, but what the hell is this?

If you mean the "coastal" locations with no levels of harbour suitability attached to them, then it's because of the Salt Pan, a type of impassable terrain used to represent the Rann of Kutch. You can't get any ships in there, or any troops. It's basically like every other impassable terrain but make it blue.

 

[viola]

View attachment 1191027
this is probably a bug and probably has been pointed out, but what the hell is this?

I think that's not a bug, but rather that the portion of "sea" there is actually described as a Salt Pan, and so the regions up there can't actually have any ports, they're not facing water but some kind of salty lowland prone to flooding. Nowadays that region is mostly dry as far as I know, but it's not exactly hospitable.

 

[Flower_Marlin]

Break up Punjabi and probably also Bengali.

I keep seeing this sentiment, and I understand where it's coming from but I present the counter-argument that Punjabi and Bengali are allowed to be big cultural blobs as the internal differences will be shown by the very prominent religious divides arising over the first 2 centuries of gameplay in both these regions - a three-way one in Punjab, and a two-way one in Bengal.

The only culture I would agree to be split off from Bengali would be Sylheti, given the Sylheti language has functioned as it's own language and had its own script - but was later imbibed as a dialect of Bengali due to nationalistic ideologies.

 

[Ru8bin]

1. You do not seem to be getting my point about geographical proximity. I give you why the Himalayas differ in Garhwal, Kumaon and the Nepali region (yes I know that Nepal does not exist in 1337, rather I was referring to the area that modern Nepal occupies, that is why I have been excluding Doti explicitly you know) and you make no counter-point to it rather going on a separate tangent.
2. I was not aware of Mahasu devta being worshipped in Nepal, so thanks for bringing that to my attention. BUT, mahasu devta is not a major component in culture, mostly venerated by the Jaunsaris not Garhwalis. The main thing in that point was the Jagars, which you conveniently ignore on multiple occasions. And please do not claim that they are a small local thing, because as I said they form the core of the religious belief of the people, thus again, separating them from the rest.
3.The inscription point was never about their origin, I know Katyuris were Khasas. They were about the divergence of language. For example, the inscription in Devalgarh, dated to 1335 is one of the earliest evidence of Garhwali language. You again ignored my point and went on a tangent.
4.Fuldei is not a minor festival fyi and dusshera not a major one, I was just making you aware that the point you made was not based on any facts.
5. For the autonomy and feudalism part, you again ignore my point. Kumaon was more or less directly administered and Garhwal left to its own devices, taking them on two distinct paths. In Kumaon, the people established stability and prosperity while Garhwal was under constant raids from within.

References- Garhwal ka Itihaas by Pt. Harikrishna Raturi
Uttarakhand ka Naveen Itihaas by Yashwant Singh Katoch

1. Geographical Proximity:
   • My point about geographical proximity is that the people of Uttarakhand and western Nepal are indeed closer to each other (approximately 250 km) than a person from Rajasthan. This closeness fosters cultural similarities, especially when focusing specifically on western Nepal rather than the entire region.
2. Jagars and Cultural Practices:
   • If by Jagars you mean the ritual of awakening local deities, it's worth noting that this practice is also observed by the Khasas, including present-day Nepalis of Khas origin. Dangri(Dangariya) is the person whose body the gods use . If you are referring to something different, please clarify.
3. Divergence of Language:
   • It seems now we agree that Gharwali diverged from Khasa and that the Katyuris were Khasas. This suggests that Gharwali was likely a dialect of Khasa rather than a fully separate language around 1337 AD. The inscription you mentioned was primarily in Sanskrit but had Khasa influences, which is often described as the "earliest form of Gharwali language" rather than the fully developed language we recognize today.
4. Status of Phool Dei:
   • I acknowledge that I was unaware of Phool Dei's significance as a major festival in Uttarakhand. However, I could not find historical references to it being a major part of Kumaoni or Gharwali culture in 1337 AD. If it did exist, I would appreciate any historical evidence to support its prominence during that time.
5. Autonomy and Feudalism:
   • While I agree that Garhwal was primarily ruled by Gharpatis and experienced internal conflicts, it's important to note that Kumaon, under the Chand rulers, operated semi-autonomously as feudal lords. The region's mountainous terrain contributed to a more fragmented feudal system, particularly after the weakening of the Khasa king Abhay Malla. Following the disintegration of the Khasa kingdom, the area divided into various principalities (Chaubise Rajya) with significant local lords. This includes at least 46 lords, highlighting a complex feudal structure, similar to that of Garhwal, despite differences in governance.

Another thing to note is that strangely there is very less record of gharwal prior to ajay pal who unified gharwal in 1357 .Strangely the khasas starting losing power during rein of prithvi malla(1338-1358).They lost part of Tibet and doti raika during 1350 .Maybe the control over gharwal had also slipped during his reign allowing ajay pal to consolidate his power and chand to gain indepencedence .This is only a speculation though since lossing doti means probably loosing the control over the west of it (not possible to have vassal on disjointed terrioty).just a speculation though.

 

[dragonluke]

does anybody know what the small red culture just south of Nimadi and Bhil is?

 

[Raven100]

In the terrain map mode, areas around delhi are given farmland whereas areas in Bengal is shown as grassland. To be more accurate eastern and southern bengal should also be farm land. Northern and western were flat lands and hills.

 

[Raven100]

In the terrain map mode, areas around delhi are given farmland whereas areas in Bengal is shown as grassland. To be more accurate eastern and southern bengal should also be farm land. Northern and western were flat lands and hills.View attachment 1191116

And here is Bangladesh's farmland map
(fyi bengal region is divided into west bengal region of India and country of Bangladesh)
Hence Bengal should have a lot of farmland instead of grassland. Also the development should be higher in southern regions as development of Bengal in most cases exceeded the development of regions surrounding delhi which was also missed

 

[LinkLuver01]

I keep seeing this sentiment, and I understand where it's coming from but I present the counter-argument that Punjabi and Bengali are allowed to be big cultural blobs as the internal differences will be shown by the very prominent religious divides arising over the first 2 centuries of gameplay in both these regions - a three-way one in Punjab, and a two-way one in Bengal.

The only culture I would agree to be split off from Bengali would be Sylheti, given the Sylheti language has functioned as it's own language and had its own script - but was later imbibed as a dialect of Bengali due to nationalistic ideologies.

To add to this, Bengali and Punjabi are just historically kinda like really large ethnic groups. They're two of the most populous people groups to this day.

I saw some sentiments about breaking Punjabi up into Siraiki, and while I love my Siraiki brethren, this is extremely anachronistic.

Now if the decision is made to break Punjabi into smaller cultures connected by a shared language, I would literally follow the doab lines and dialect lines PDX is using for the areas. While I find the mixing of Mughal era Doaba lines and more modernist Dialect lines for the area map mode, one or the other should work for splitting Punjabi up.

Otherwise, Multani probs works as a catchall for what would become the Siraikis in the future, lower Punjab absolutely has had its own unique dialect and derivative of Punjabi culture since like literally ever.

I am still absolutely in favor of a mega-Punjabi culture though, I definitely am not biased at all as a Lahori, nope, couldn't be me pra ;p

 

[LinkLuver01]

View attachment 1191088
If you mean the "coastal" locations with no levels of harbour suitability attached to them, then it's because of the Salt Pan, a type of impassable terrain used to represent the Rann of Kutch. You can't get any ships in there, or any troops. It's basically like every other impassable terrain but make it blue.

Idk why I just noticed this, compliments to PDX, this is a phenomenal way to represent this patch of area. Will there be a way to navigate this during high monsoonal weather with smol tiny baybe boats, or will it allow trade to pass through somehow ? Wondering how this saltmarsh can be utilized.

 

[FleetingRain]

@Pavía any chance we could get a Region mapmode? Or is there no gameplay reason for such a mapmode anymore?

 

[frostbite666420]

Buddy Kafir(infidel) is still very much a derogatory term used on non muslims by Muslims in South Asia especially in Pakistan thanks to its fundamentalist leaning ideology. And regarding the place Kafiristan yes such a place does exist and it used to be a safe haven for non muslims to practice their beliefs freely devoid of islamic interventions(violent or otherwise) and hence the name during the middle up until early modern age but gradually most people were either killed, converted or forced to leave and hence the region is islamified now.

In Pakistan and probs India too, Kafirs and Kafiristan has no negative connotations even if it is the case in other cultures and languages—I have not lived in Pakistan for a decade so perhaps things have changed, however it is still the term used for the population today to my knowledge.

In fact, I’ve even heard the (incorrect) theory that the Kafir in Kafiristan is a false-cognate with Kafir the Islamic term in Pakistan, as Kafirstanis are, ofc, now mainly Muslims.