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Tinto Maps #20 - 27th of September 2024 - The Steppes

Hello, and welcome one more week to the weekly encounter for map lovers! This week it’s also directed at horse lovers because we will be looking at the Eurasian Steppes, plus the Urals! So let’s start with the maps without further ado.

Countries:
Countries.jpg

Colored Wastelands.jpg

A glorious, Golden Horde! It is at its power peak, under the reign of Uzbeg Khan, so it's a much more menacing presence for its neighbors. However, it has its some internal issues that need to be managed, as you’ll notice in some of the maps, and in the future when we talk about the content for Hordes. The Golden Horde also heads its own IO, the Tatar Yoke, as shown in a previous Tinto Maps:

Tatar Yoke.jpg

We have already corrected the Ruthenian countries that are under the Horde’s Yoke, although we still have to correct the Russian principalities, which will be done in the corresponding Tinto Maps review. We’re also aware that we need to improve a bit the coloring of the IO, to mark not only the Golden Horde as the overlord of these countries, but also that Muscovy holds the title of the Grand Principality of Vladimir, which makes it the ‘enforcer’ of the Yoke. These fixes are also planned to be done in a few weeks.

Societies of Pops:
Societies of Pops.jpg

Societies of Pops 2.jpg .jpg

A bit up to the north, we have some Societies of Pops! This means that the territory of Western Siberia won’t be empty land, but will be populated by these people, which can be interacted with.

BTW, I’m not showing this week a dynasty map because, well, only the Borgijin dynasty rules over the lands of the Golden Horde, of course!


Locations:
Locations.jpg

Locations Western Siberia.jpg

Locations 3.jpg

Locations 4.jpg

Locations 5.jpg

Tons of locations today… You might notice that the density location is in a progression from west to east, from the most densely settled areas to the less settled ones. You may also notice that we’ve followed a design of ‘settler corridors’ in Western Siberia, setting those parts of the land that were habitable, usually on river valleys.

Provinces:
Provinces.jpg

Provinces 2.jpg


Areas:
Areas.jpg


Terrain:
Climate.jpg

Topography.jpg

Vegetation.jpg

The terrain is interesting here, as there are two main ecological areas. The first is the Steppes, Flatlands with Sparse and Grasslands vegetation, with either Cold Arid or Continental climates. And then we have the Siberian Arctics Forests, which are completely different, of course. On a note, the Urals were set as Hills, as they’re a quite settleable area, but we’ll probably make a review with your feedback, and add some mountains there.

Development:
Development.jpg

The whole region is not very developed, you might notice the difference with India, from last week’s Tinto Maps.

Harbors:
Harbors.jpg

There are some harbors in the Steppe region… In the Black Sea and Caspian Sea, of course! As usual, we’re open to feedback on this matter.

Cultures:
Cultures.jpg

Plenty of cultures! One note: Although we planned to work on the religious and cultural minorities of the region during the summer, we ended up not having enough time to add them. So what we’ll be doing today is showing the rough outline of ‘cultural spheres’, and then we’ll add the minorities during the review of the region. In that sense, feedback is very well received.

With that said the only note that needs to be made in terms of the cultural design is that we divided the Tatar cultural group into some differentiated regional cultures, being Crimean, Mishary, Kazani, and Astrakhani. We’re also aware that some of the cultures, as Mari and Chuvash, might be a bit displaced, as noted in the Russian Tinto Maps, so we’ll review and correct that with your feedback.


Religions:
Religions.jpg

Regarding Religions, the matter is a bit worse, as the big Sunni blob is just because the main religion of the Golden Horde is Islam, after the conversion of Uzbeg Khan, but that’s obviously incorrect. Also, as we have been able to forecast development time on how Pagan divisions will be during this autumn, we will make a comprehensive review of the region as well, to get a good distribution of ‘Shamanist’ Paganism, Tengrism, and Sunni Islam.

Raw Materials:
Raw Materials.jpg

Raw Materials 2.jpg

Raw Materials 3.jpg

Regarding the raw materials, the Steppes have plenty of Livestock and Horses, quite logically, although there are regions with some other goods. And up to the north, the main materials are Lumber and Fur. Apart from that, I want to mention the mineral hub in the Ural Mountains, with plenty of Copper, Iron, Gold, Lead, and Coal. That makes it a very mid and late-game interesting spot, and playing as Muscovy/Russia, I’ll tell you that you definitely want to expand into that region, as it will fulfill some of your material needs by that time.

Markets:
Markets.jpg

Markets! Big region, with lots of markets, although you may noticed that we changed the coloring of the locations that have 0% market access, which is the case in several areas. In any case, the market centers are Kaffa, Astrakhan, Saray-Jük, Kunya Urgench, Samarkand, Almaty, and Chimgi Tura. BTW, these names are much easier to notice in the game’s UI, as they’re beside the market centers:

Markets 2.jpg


Population:
Population.jpg

This week we’re showing only the country population mapmode, as there are some location numbers here and there which are failing, due to the already known issue with our pop editor (and which are on the way to be fixed). In any case, the whole population of the region is around 6.5-7M, of which around 6.3M are part of the Golden Horde. As I said, it’s a menacing country…

And that’s all for today! This is going to be my last Tinto Maps in a while, as I’ll be on vacation for 3 weeks during October (you might have noticed that I didn’t have any during summer), so one of the Content Designers in the team, @Roger Corominas , will step in and be in charge of the next 4 Tinto Maps. It’s in good hands, as Roger is an Experienced CD, who has been working and focused on Project Caesar for more than 3 years, at this point (this is why you might not know him from EU4, as other CDs in our team). In any case, he will be starting with the regions of Xinjiang, mostly ruled by the Chagatai Khanate, and Tibet.

I’ll keep reading and answering you during next week, and then I’ll be back in a month from now. See you!
 
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Selkup people, not "Selkuper". "Vepsian" is not 100% incorrect, but "Veps" (or "Beps") is better. I would like to also mention again, that "Suomenusko" is unfit for the religion name, the biggest reason being the term 'Suomi' back then just referred Southwest Finland [ ] Meiou & Taxes uses Ukkousko, maybe you could adopt this term as well.
The name Ukkousko is based on the misleading idea that the god Ukko was the head god of the finnic peoples. Vaenusko is a better name IMO, it just uses the root word for folk or people (allegedly I don't actually speak any baltic finnic languages). Frankly Finn, Finnish and Finnic in English are in many contexts used as a broader term so I think Suomensko is fine, definitely better than Ukko monotheism.
 
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The Idel-Ural Area is quite peculiar. If you look at the ethnic map today, you see that the area between Nizhniy Novgorod and Kazan - between the Russian Heartland and Kazan, is separated by the presence of the Mari, Chuvash and Mordvin peoples.
1727470745054.png

Now the cultural map is rather peculiar. For some reason the Chuvash are entirely omitted. I would have expected them to be prevailing culture in the Cheboksary area.

The next peculiar thing is the distribution of the Mari:
On the map the bulk of them appear to live in northwestern Bashkortostan. However, there should be no Mari in that area, see Wikipedia:

"In 1552, the Mari territory was incorporated into Russia with the Russian conquest of Kazan under Ivan the Terrible. While some Maris (mostly Hill Maris) assisted the Russian conquest, the majority of the Maris fought back in the so-called "Cheremis Wars". By the end of the 16th century, resistance was finally quelled, leaving a heavy toll on the Mari population. As a result of the ensuing influx of Russian settlers, and to escape forced Christianization (starting from c. 1700), Maris started to settle further east in present-day Bashkortostan."
1727470873330.png

These are the Volga Republics outlines on the locations map. I would expect these cultures to be present practically as a buffer separating the Kazani culture from Muscovite. Meanwhile the Mari area south and southeast of Udmurt should not exist at all - it should be either Kazani, or Bashkir in its eastern half

1727472729990.png
 
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It's a spelling variation of Khongorai, a Yenisei Kyrgyz / Khakas country

They should probably go with a different spelling for the game since people keep thinking of Hungarians when they see the name.
 
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For a revision of the minorities I would just like to point out that the Alans were still quite prominent in the pontic steppes prior of the arrival of the Mongols, representing the remnant of the Iranic past of the steppe. After the Mongol conquest, some split off to settle in Hungary (the Jasz-people), some retreated into the Caucasus (and would turn into the Ossetes), but many tribes gave their allegiance to the Mongols (Foltz, Richard: The Ossetes. Bloomsbury, London 2021, pp. 50-52.). We even encounter an elite Alan Guard of 3,000 people in Kublai Khan's Mongolia, mentioned among others in the Yuan Chronicles and Marco Polo's Il Milione (Foltz, ibd.), they eventually got mongolised. As the Alans still seem to have been quite a large people prior to the Mongol conquest, and the tribes moved to Mongolia must have been only a part of those integrated into the system of mongolian tribal allegiances, it would make sense for there to be some additional scattered Alanian minorities in the Pontocaspian, specifically in their old home regions between the Volga and the Don.

I would also suggest adding some Iron to Ukraine, as it possesses one-fifth of the world's commercial grade iron ore, being mostly centered in the Kryvyi Rih Iron Ore Basin (Kryvbas). Historical exploitation on a large scale were initiated by Russia only in the 19th century, but I think these ressources shouldn't be entirely absent from the game.
 
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Aren't the fortress of Khadjibey and the later town of Odessa the same thing?
 
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Wow. Thank you @Pavía and the whole team for your effort, another portion of beautiful content!
As always, I'm going to try to provide you with a reasonable feedback on the Ukrainian lands.

Firstly, I want to share a link to the project, where most of the known historic maps of Ukraine are gathered in high resolution:
Vkraina Project

Just in case you will find in useful.


COUNTRIES
  • Even though we lack any sources, I see no reason to make such a bordergore between Kyiv/Chernihiv, that Severian area has always been a part of Chernihiv influence and they have quite common history. That appendix should belong to the duchy of Chernihiv
  • Kyiv, Chernihiv, Volhynia and Halych paid the tribute to the Horde directly, not through Muscovy. That 'Tatar Yoke' IO should also reflect that.
  • From the early 14th century till 1410 the city of Bilhorod (Ukr.) / Akkerman (Tur.) (Cetatea Alba location) was a colony of Genoa called Moncastro. I knew it from the history of the town, but here is the link to the source:
The Oxford Dictionary Of Byzantium Vols 1-3, page 212 - ASPROKASTRON article.
1727473395182.png

So maybe you should split this location into two smaller to reflect this.

Countries.png


As a reference, the border between the Duchies of Chernihiv and Pereyaslav (that you integrated into Kyiv):
КиївськаРусьКнязівства.jpg


And so my proposal for Kyiv/Chernihiv border:
KyChe.png



LOCATIONS
Obviously, most of the Steppe territory was almost empty without any settlements there, so you had to choose the location names that were founded centuries later after 1337. There could be just some better choices that are shorter, better to read or more correct.
Where possible I will add Crimean Tatar names for dynamic naming, so you can use them in 1337 at the start:
  • Oster instead of Starogorodskaya (a well-known important historic town instead of a small village noone knows about)
  • Lubech instead of Ripky (a well-known important historic town instead of a small village noone knows about)
  • Nizhyn instead of Unenezh (Unenezh was destroyed by the Mongols, then it was Nizhyn, the name relevant for the game time frame)
  • Putyvl instead of Buryn (a well-known medieval historic town founded in 1146 instead of a small village founded in the 1660-s)
  • Vorozhba instead of Lypova Dolyna (shorter name, easier to read)
  • Zinkiv instead of ...???... (the location between Poltava and Hadiach, I cannot even read it, shorter name, easier to read)
  • Aidar instead of Rovenki (those green near Valuyki) (because there are also Rovenky to the south, in Tana province, actually the same name in Ukrainian)
  • Hlobyne instead of ...???... (the location between Kremenchuk and Orzhytsia, I cannot read it, shorter name, easier to read)
  • Parkhom Bayrak instead of Krasnohrad (Krasnohrad is a non-relevant communist-era name, before there was a cossack settlement called Parkhom Bayrak, also turkic name origin)
  • Svatove instead of ...???... (the location between Kupiansk and Kreminna, I cannot read it, shorter name, easier to read)
  • Starobilsk instead of ...???... (the location between Novoaidar and Novopskov, I cannot read it, shorter name, easier to read)
  • Usivka looks too big, can be split into Kamyanka and Usivka
  • Zavallya insted of Zavalye (correct spelling)
  • Zhovti Vody instead of Lykhivka (historically relevant location called 'yellow river', where a famous battle took place, later a settlement appeared with the same name)
  • Kodak insted of Kodaky (Kodaky is a modern-day village, the fortress was called Kodak)
  • Lysychi Bayrak instead of Lysychansk (early Cossack settlement, later became Lysychansk; also Tatar name origin)
  • Sokoly instead of Voznesensk (historical Lithuanian castle in the same place, existed early in the game)
  • Balka instead of Nova Odesa ('Odesa' appeared on maps 1793, so 'New Odesa' looks quite weird in 1337, chose another settlement nearby)
  • Kichkas instead of Zaporizhia (at that time Zaporizhia is a good name for the whole area, but not the location, Kichkas is now a part of Zaporizhia and a historic location where a Lithuanian Castle used to be to control Dnipro, also shorter name)
  • Rozdol instead of Berezivka (another settlement with more 'universal' name)
  • Novoazov (Ukrainian) / Koypa (Crimean tatar) instead of Shyrokyne (more universal name, Novoazovsk town nearby)
  • Domakha (Ukrainian) / Adamakha (Crimean tatar) instead of Mariupol (early original Cossack settlement, much later became Mariupol)
  • Vitovtiv (Ukrainian) / (Vithold) Hammami (Crimean tatar) instead of Nikolaev Mykolaiv (existed there before Mykolaiv, a castle built by Vytautas in the 14th century)
  • Beryslav (Ukrainian) / Qizi Kermen (Crimean tatar) or Esqi-Tavan (Historic Horde cite) instead of Chrevonyi Mayak (strategic fortress built by the Crimeans in the 14th century instead of an unknown village, also shorter name, easy to read)
  • Sirohoz (Ukrainian) / Rohat-Kermen (Crimean Tatar) instead of Velyka Pepetykha (I can barely read it, shorter name of Nyzni/Verkhi Sirohozy there nearby)
  • Tehin instead of Kherson (name of the Lithuanian castle built in the 14th century, later shown as Tehinka on various maps)
  • Dashiv or Ochakiv (Ukrainian) / Özü (Crimean Tatar) instead of Ochakov Ochakiv (it's a bit complicated, it was an ancient settlement of Dashiv at that time, than taken by Lithuania and then in 1480 taken by the Crimean Tatars, after that it was called Aci-Kale and then Özü. So Ochakiv (Ukr.) / Oczakow (Pol.) / Ochakov (Rus.) appeared later from the Tatar name Aci-Kale. But in 1337 it was still Dashiv
  • Kochubiy (Ukrainian) / Khadjibey (Hacibey) (Turkish, Crimean Tatar) instead of Odessa Odesa (actually you also have Khadjibey nearby, but it is an error, Odesa and Khadjibey are the same place, just renamed in 1793. The fortress Kochubiy was founded by the Lithuanians between 1324 and 1415 (Koczubi in all Polish and Latin maps), then captured by the Ottomans and became Hacibey (Khdjibey).
  • Kinburn instead of Holyi Pereviz (important geographical location there, Kinburn peninsula, a fortress guarded the Dnipro estuary from the opposite side of Ochakiv)
  • Tendra (universal) or Jarilhach / Carılğaç (Crimean Tatar) instead of your Aslan-Horod (Tendra is a peninsula there, Jarilhach is a big island by the shore; I prefer Tendra more; Aslan-Horod is modern Kakhovka, it should be the location to the north of this)
  • Aslan-Horod (Ukrainian) / Islam-Kermen (Crimean Tatar) instead of your Hornostaivka (If I can read it correctly, to the north of your Aslan-Horod, more proper location)
  • Perekop (Ukrainian) / Or Qapi (Crimean Tatar) instead of Kalay (Perekop is a strategic fortress that guarded the only entrance to the Crimea, it is a must)
  • Moncastro (Italian) / Bilhorod (Ukrainian) / Akkerman (Tatar) instead of Cetatea Alba for 1337 (belongs to Genoa, but Cetatea Alba is OK for Romanian dynamic name)
Also, I propose some easier location names that are based on the local lakes or rivers. I think it is a good option, this way we would have less irrelevant location names of the cities that were founded in the 18th-19th centuries.
And almost all of them have Tatar name origin, so they look natural both for Ukrainian and Tatar namings!
Also in most cases new settlements were actually connected with local geographical features as rivers, lakes, hills etc.
They are blue in the map:
  • Shostka instead of Seredyna-Buda (due to the shorter name, later a town appeared with the same name)
  • Burluk instead of Shevelivka
  • Kupian instead of Kupiansk
  • Bila instead of Kalnivka
  • Derkul instead of Bilovodsk
  • Balakliya instead of Barvinkove
  • Oril instead of Samarchyk
  • Inhulets instead of Petrove
  • Inhul instead of Kropyvnytskyi
  • Torets instead of Slovyansk
  • Samar instead of Pavlohrad (currently the river is called Samara, but there is another Samara in Russia and Samar is the old name of this river, so it fits here perfectly and to distinkt it from Samara)
  • Luhan instead of Luhansk
  • Mius instead of Rovenky
  • Donets instead of Donetsk
  • Byk instead of Oleksandrivka
  • Yaly instead of Pokrovske
  • Bazavluk instead of Sofiivka (actually the Cossacks had the Bazavluk Sich)
  • Kalmius instead of Velyka Novosilka
  • Yelanchyk instead of Vasylivka (that eastern one, this is a must because you have two Vasylivkas!)
  • Haichur instead of Hulyaipole
  • Chortomlyk instead of Novovoskresenske (the location adjacent to Kryvyi Rih, also the Cossacks had the Chortomlyk Sich)
  • Bilozerka instead of Velyka Bilozerka (if I can read it correctly, no need to make it so long)
  • Vysun instead of Bereznehuvate
  • Chichikliya / Ciceklia instead of Veselynove (Tatar origin of the river name)
  • Kuyalnyk instead of Khadjibey (your Khadjibey is in the wrong location as I have already mentioned)
  • Tylihul instead of Kominternivske (absolutely non-relevant communist-era name)
  • Berda instead of Berdyansk
  • Utluk instead of Kyrylivka
  • Kalanchak instead of Chaplynka
The map:
Locations.png


I also tried to add someoriginal Tatar/Turkish names (green text in the map) for certain places, so these should be used for 1337.

Firstly, the known Horde cities of the mid-14th century, based on archaelogical excavations, I highlighted them with the green circles. It is important to note, that the existence of these towns in the area is well-known from the cronicles, but it is hard to locate exactly which big archaelogical site belongs to which town, so here are the most probable assumptions. These should be at least towns with higher population and some development:
  • Yangi-Shehr near modern-day Orhei
  • Yedi Cami to the east of modern-day Vasylivka
  • Esqi-Tavan (Crimean name Qizi-Kermen) in the modern-day Beryslav (this was a strategic Dnipro river crossing called Tavan)
  • Yabu in the modern-day Torhovytsia
Here for example is a ~1360 map (before the Lithuanias took these lands). In [these brackets] some biggest archaelogical sites with Horde-era settlements are shown:
Town map.png

It is clear, that poplulation was more concentrated along the main rivers.

I also used local rivers with Turkic names:
  • Igren in Rozdory, both good for dynamic naming. Excavations showed some settlement near strategic Dnipro crossing there too
  • Saksahan in Kryvyi Rih, both good for dynamic naming
Also as far as I know:
  • Melitopol in Crimean Khanate was Qizilyar / Qizil-Yar, both good for dynamic naming
  • Henichesk in Crimean Khanate was Ğeniç, both good for dynamic naming
Other names mentioned in the map can be also used for Crimean Tatar (I mean those in blue and red fonts) if there is no better option, they are definitely better then Kyrylivka, Oleksandrivka or Voznesensk etc.
Locations CrT.png


Maybe if we have Crimean Tatars here or also Turkish guys would know better, feel free to add and correct me, I will update the post.

Separately about Crimea:
  • Looks like the map ignored one of the biggest cities of the Golden Horde - Solkhat. Its population was around 20 000 people. And this is one of the very few Horde cities, that still exists now (Esqi Qirim, Stary Krym). You need to add this location
  • It is better to have Qarasuvbazar instead of Aqmescit. and Aqmecit instead of Aq-Mechet. Firstly, Qarasuvbazar was far older, bigger and more important at that time. Secondly, Ak-Mechet is a russified name of Aqmecit, that is actually the same as Aqmescit. Both locations have the same name and meaning 'White Mosque'.
Locations.png


P.S. It was also funny to note that everywhere you have correct modern namings based on Ukrainian spelling, but 4 adjacent locations by the Black Sea – Odesa-Kominternivske-Ochakiv-Mykolaiv are probably old in the database :D But Nova Odesa to the North is correct with one 's' :)

PROVINCES
For better representation of areas, some small rework for 3 provinces is needed in the Chernihiv lands:
  • Transfer Sosnytsia and Novhorod-Siversky to Chernihiv province
  • Transfer Putyvl (Buryn) and Romny to Hlukhiv province
  • Lypova Dolyna province should be renamed to Sumy province (the dominant city)
This way these provinces will have 6, 5, 5 locations instead of 4, 5, 7 and will perfectly prepresent the historical border between Severia and Sloboda-Ukraine historical regions (and areas in the game):
NewProvinces.png


Some changes relevant to the new proposed locations:
  • Nizhyn instead of Ichnia (much more historically important)
  • Chernihiv gets 2 more locations
  • Hlukhiv loses 2 locations to Chernihiv and gets 2 from Sumy
  • Sumy instead of Lypova Dolyna (much more historically important, gets 2 less locations)
  • Krasny Kut instead of Krasnohrad (communist-era names are not relevant for the game)
  • Starobilsk instead of Bielska Sloboda (much more historically important)
  • Luhan instead of Luhansk
  • Uman instead of Torhovytsia (shorter name, much more important town)
  • Kichkas or maybe even Sich (more flavourful) instead of Zaporizhia
  • Kalmius instead of Posad
  • Berda instead of Melitopol
  • Dnipro Steppe instead of Kherson
  • Boh / Bog instead of Ochakiv (the old name of the Buh river, an important river and its estuary there)
  • Kochubiy / Hacibey / Khadjibey instead of Odesa (much more relevant
  • Budzhak instead of Basarabia (Basarabia is much bigger and goes further to the north; that exact region is called Budzhak)
  • Kalanchak instead of Chaplynka (universal name for all relevant languages)
  • Or Qapi (or Perekop) instead of Kalay
Provinces.png



AREAS
Areas need to be reworked to better represent the historic areas of the region:
  • You have Chernihiv and Chernigov, that is obviously wrong :) Chernigov should be probably Bryansk and should include Gomel province, cause Black Ruthenia is quite big area
  • Chernihiv area can be actually Severia, an exact historic region of Ukraine like Galicia, Podolia, Volhynia, bud it should not go so far to the east, new updated provinces represent it perfectly
  • Sloboda-Ukraine should be significantly moved to the south and include Izium, Karlivka and not include lipetsk, Yelets provinces. Sumy province has to be also there. And maybe you can change the name to one of shorter options: Sloboda, Slobodia (romanised Sloboda), Slobidshyna, Slobozhanshyna
  • Thus, Kursk Area should be created and include the historic lands of the Duchy of Kursk
  • Pereyaslav instead of East Dnieper to pay tribute to the disappeared Duchy of Pereyaslav that had exactly the same borders. Or Left Bank (Лівобережжя in Ukrainian). Or, lastly, East Dnipro for consistency with Ukrainian spelling in other places around. Or even you can include it in Ukraine Area. But my preference is Pereyaslav :)
  • Zaporizhia without the provinces of Kharkiv oblast will be just perfect this way
  • Yedisan was historically between the Dnister and Dnipro rivers, only around the Black Sea. It should not expand so far to Mariupol
  • Pryazovia or Pryazov instead of Posad, that means exactly the territory near the Sea of Azov and it gets the northern shore of the Azov Sea
  • If you have Lower Don, you can have Upper Don, but you probably need to switch them
I have redrawn the areas in the location map:
Areas.png


This way it matches with the historic areas of the region and looks quite balanced:
AreasUA.png



VEGETATION
I have already mentioned it earlier, vegetation of Ukraine shoud be reworked:
Vegetation.png


Here I will attach my notes from the Ruthenian feedback even with a scientific source:
VEGETATION
Here I see some potential for better changes. I think you put too much forests in Polodia and too little forests around Kyiv and Chernihiv.
In Ukraine, according to every our geography schoolbook, we have three main natural zones – steppe, forested steppe and forests (apart from the mountains). They can be even seen in the modern satellite images:
Vegetation zones.pngForest satellite clear.pngForest satellite.png
Even now it can be seen that areas to the north of Kyiv and Chernihiv are quite forested. No way in 1337 there were any huge areas of grasslands up there, it was even more densely forested (farmlands around Kyiv are OK, maybe around other bigger towns too).
At the same time there should be far less forests in the forested steppe areas, I assume mostly a mix of woods, grasslands and just a bit of farmlands and forests. By the way, this is how forested steppe looks like in my region:
Lisostep.png
Dense forests were stretching deeper to the south along the main rivers - the Dnipro, Buh, Dnister. The forest near Chyhyryn and Cherkasy is still alive and it was very important historically for cossacs, by the way.
Here I attach the image from Kaplan et al. (2009). This is some kind of simulation, something between 1000 and 1500 could be used:
Vegeation Kaplan 2009.png
So my rough proposal for Ukrinian vegetation map looks like this:
Vegetation instr.pngVegetation proposal.png
And just on top of that the map from 1580 (take it as a minor proof:)):
Vege 1580.png


DEVELOPMENT & POPULATION
Based on these maps (and archaelogical excavations):
Town map.png

GHMap.jpg


We can assume, that there were some clusters of higher population and development in the Steppe:

  • Firstly, as I have already mentioned, the biggest towns of Yabu, Esqi-Tavan, Yedi Cami, Yanghi-Shehr. These should be populated and very multicultural.
  • Also there were more permanent settlements near the strategic Dnipro crossings on the both banks of the rive (around modern-day Dnipro city, Zaporizhzhya, Kakhovka and Kherson), along the biggest rivers (Pivdenny Buh and Dnister) and the Black sea shore
  • In other sources I found that Siversky Donets was popular for temporary nomadic camps, so higher population, but not much higher development
  • The majority of other steppe locations in the region should probably have around 1000 - 2000 pops (as far as i know, if the population is below 1000, the location is uncolonised)
Schematically:
Population.png


So the development should be approximately based on this information:
  • Chernihiv, East Dnipro regions should have a bit higher development, like Volhynia and the Dnipro Right Bank. Even thouth the area was devastated, there were dozens of permanent settlements there, so they were definitely more developed than empty Steppes in the south. Mongols destroyed that region, but not to the ashes.
  • Population clusters and the richest Horde cities have higher development
  • Italian/Pontic towns have higher development
  • Btw., why do the Steppes to the east have such a higher development compared to others?
DevelopmentNew.png

(The colours are relative, not absolute)

Also here there is a link with approximate cities population. I highlighted and translated the needed part, so cities/towns can be better adjusted:
CitiesTowns.png

The numbers are approximate and based on cronicles and espimates from archaelogical excavations.

And as long as we got the map of the cities and towns, I thing we need a several corrections:
  • Add the biggest horde towns and cities and remove Poltava and 2 strange towns in Moldova
  • Add Chernihiv and Ryazan. I think, that the town/city criteria shoul be not absolute, but relative within a certain region, so I agree with Kursk being a town and I would add these two too as historic regional centres
  • But maybe the devs will need to remove some of them for gameplay reasons
TownMap.png


CULTURE & RELIGION
You already mentioned about culture and religion borders that you will work on it.
  • My input is that Ruthenian and other local Slavic cultures should be expanded further to the south to Dnipro rapids with at least some minor presence. And be present as a minority in the biggest trading cities.
  • Crimean south shore should be quite multicultural
  • Significant Armenian minority should be present in all the Crimea.
Cultures.png


The same applies to religions.

NATURAL HARBOURS
The corrections needed according to your metrics:
# -25 - Cliffs - South of Chile
# 0 - Flat Coast - Barcelona
# 25 - Bay - Palma de Mallorca
# 50 - River Port - Sevilla
# 75 - Deep Bay - San Sebastián
#100 - Closed Very Defensible Estuary - Ferrol
The followinf harbour levels are proposed:
Harbours_Numbers.png


Mykolaiv, Ochakiv, Cherson should be especially upgraded because of Bug estuary and what you have as Aslan-Horod (but better it is called Tendra) should be downgraded.
Ochakiv.png



RAW GOODS
In general I like it, but think that it could be a bit more diverse. Several important notes:
  • Cossack Left bank locations around Lubny, Poltava, Sumy, Hlukhiv - it was a huge saltpeter production region since the early XVI century, mostly ruled by cossack colonels and nobles. They exported a lot of it to Muscovy. Actually as far as I understand, the Cossacks dug the remnants of Kyivan border settlements and fortifications destroyed by the Mongols as well as ancient burial mounds in the steppe, so the saltpeter production was far more efficient than represented by the saltpeter works building in the game. It can be really considered as RGO and represented by at least 1 saltpeter RGO location.
  • Also, the territories of modern-day northern Ukraine (especially Chernihiv, Sumy oblasts) were a known centre for fiber crops production since the Kyivan Rus times till now. So please add several of fiber crops RGO locations there instead of wheat too.
  • Kryvyi Rih must have iron, it has one of the largest iron ore deposits. Even though the big industry was built there in the 19th century, the archaelogical excavations in the 19th and 20th centuries showed that some sorts of metallurgy activities had been present for 2000 years there.
  • Ukraine must have more clay locations, it was massively used for pottery and buildings.
  • Bakhmut and Sloviansk must have salt, these are well-known salt production centres since Cosaack times.
  • Probably you should also expand some wheat to the south to represent later ages when people migrated to the steppes more actively.
Unfortunately, all sources are in Ukrainian only:
I think these changes are quite relevant and would make this region more diverse.
RawGoods.png

Raw Goods update particularly on Crimea:
Another significant update on the raw goods specifically in Crimea! I think it can be represented quite historically.
I have read the book (link) of notes of Evliya Celebi on his travel to Crimea in the XVII century. Even though the travel took place 300 years after 1337, it gives a good reference on the basics of the Crimean economy that remained actually very similar, I believe.
I'll add some notes from the book with the respective Google translate.
Key points shortly for those who don't want to read a lot of text:
  • The southern shore with Fruit + Wine and the western shore producing Fish (especially in the Donuzlav lake) are very good decisions (directly mentioned in the book)
  • No Cotton should be presented in the Pontic Steppe
  • A lot of sheep (a.k.a. Wool) should be added (especially instead of cotton) in Crimea and in the Pontic Steppe
  • Rich in Fruit also to the north of the Crimean mountains
  • Sturdy Grains instead of Wheat, they were much more popular and had much higher yield than wheat in the arid climate
  • Livestock, Wool, Horses are more appropriate instead of Fish and Salt in the landlocked locations
  • Salt around the Syvash lake in the northern Crimea
______________
This way I would suggest the following changes to the Crimean Raw Goods map.
It both represents a bit more settled economy around the Crimean mountains with known cities and more nomadic and empty northern half of the peninsula:
Goods_Adjusted.png



I'd like to thank you once more for your dedication and work and sorry for such a long post. But even now this level is something I could not dream of before.
 
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Hello, and welcome one more week to the weekly encounter for map lovers! This week it’s also directed at horse lovers because we will be looking at the Eurasian Steppes, plus the Urals! So let’s start with the maps without further ado.

Countries:
View attachment 1193513
View attachment 1194073
A glorious, Golden Horde! It is at its power peak, under the reign of Uzbeg Khan, so it's a much more menacing presence for its neighbors. However, it has its some internal issues that need to be managed, as you’ll notice in some of the maps, and in the future when we talk about the content for Hordes. The Golden Horde also heads its own IO, the Tatar Yoke, as shown in a previous Tinto Maps:

View attachment 1194074
We have already corrected the Ruthenian countries that are under the Horde’s Yoke, although we still have to correct the Russian principalities, which will be done in the corresponding Tinto Maps review. We’re also aware that we need to improve a bit the coloring of the IO, to mark not only the Golden Horde as the overlord of these countries, but also that Muscovy holds the title of the Grand Principality of Vladimir, which makes it the ‘enforcer’ of the Yoke. These fixes are also planned to be done in a few weeks.

Societies of Pops:
View attachment 1193514
View attachment 1194158
A bit up to the north, we have some Societies of Pops! This means that the territory of Western Siberia won’t be empty land, but will be populated by these people, which can be interacted with.

BTW, I’m not showing this week a dynasty map because, well, only the Borgijin dynasty rules over the lands of the Golden Horde, of course!


Locations:
View attachment 1194075
View attachment 1194076

Tons of locations today… You might notice that the density location is in a progression from west to east, from the most densely settled areas to the less settled ones. You may also notice that we’ve followed a design of ‘settler corridors’ in Western Siberia, setting those parts of the land that were habitable, usually on river valleys.

Provinces:
View attachment 1194081
View attachment 1194082

Areas:
View attachment 1194083

Terrain:
View attachment 1194084
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View attachment 1194086
The terrain is interesting here, as there are two main ecological areas. The first is the Steppes, Flatlands with Sparse and Grasslands vegetation, with either Cold Arid or Continental climates. And then we have the Siberian Arctics Forests, which are completely different, of course. On a note, the Urals were set as Hills, as they’re a quite settleable area, but we’ll probably make a review with your feedback, and add some mountains there.

Development:
View attachment 1194087
The whole region is not very developed, you might notice the difference with India, from last week’s Tinto Maps.

Harbors:
View attachment 1194088
There are some harbors in the Steppe region… In the Black Sea and Caspian Sea, of course! As usual, we’re open to feedback on this matter.

Cultures:
View attachment 1194089
Plenty of cultures! One note: Although we planned to work on the religious and cultural minorities of the region during the summer, we ended up not having enough time to add them. So what we’ll be doing today is showing the rough outline of ‘cultural spheres’, and then we’ll add the minorities during the review of the region. In that sense, feedback is very well received.

With that said the only note that needs to be made in terms of the cultural design is that we divided the Tatar cultural group into some differentiated regional cultures, being Crimean, Mishary, Kazani, and Astrakhani. We’re also aware that some of the cultures, as Mari and Chuvash, might be a bit displaced, as noted in the Russian Tinto Maps, so we’ll review and correct that with your feedback.


Religions:
View attachment 1194092
Regarding Religions, the matter is a bit worse, as the big Sunni blob is just because the main religion of the Golden Horde is Islam, after the conversion of Uzbeg Khan, but that’s obviously incorrect. Also, as we have been able to forecast development time on how Pagan divisions will be during this autumn, we will make a comprehensive review of the region as well, to get a good distribution of ‘Shamanist’ Paganism, Tengrism, and Sunni Islam.

Raw Materials:
View attachment 1194093
View attachment 1194094
View attachment 1194095
Regarding the raw materials, the Steppes have plenty of Livestock and Horses, quite logically, although there are regions with some other goods. And up to the north, the main materials are Lumber and Fur. Apart from that, I want to mention the mineral hub in the Ural Mountains, with plenty of Copper, Iron, Gold, Lead, and Coal. That makes it a very mid and late-game interesting spot, and playing as Muscovy/Russia, I’ll tell you that you definitely want to expand into that region, as it will fulfill some of your material needs by that time.

Markets:
View attachment 1194096
Markets! Big region, with lots of markets, although you may noticed that we changed the coloring of the locations that have 0% market access, which is the case in several areas. In any case, the market centers are Kaffa, Astrakhan, Saray-Jük, Kunya Urgench, Samarkand, Almaty, and Chimgi Tura. BTW, these names are much easier to notice in the game’s UI, as they’re beside the market centers:

View attachment 1194101

Population:
View attachment 1194103
This week we’re showing only the country population mapmode, as there are some location numbers here and there which are failing, due to the already known issue with our pop editor (and which are on the way to be fixed). In any case, the whole population of the region is around 6.5-7M, of which around 6.3M are part of the Golden Horde. As I said, it’s a menacing country…

And that’s all for today! This is going to be my last Tinto Maps in a while, as I’ll be on vacation for 3 weeks during October (you might have noticed that I didn’t have any during summer), so one of the Content Designers in the team, @Roger Corominas , will step in and be in charge of the next 4 Tinto Maps. It’s in good hands, as Roger is an Experienced CD, who has been working and focused on Project Caesar for more than 3 years, at this point (this is why you might not know him from EU4, as other CDs in our team). In any case, he will be starting with the regions of Xinjiang, mostly ruled by the Chagatai Khanate, and Tibet.

I’ll keep reading and answering you during next week, and then I’ll be back in a month from now. See you!
Cool! One question, though-- is there a reason why fur and lumber provinces seem to alternate in Siberia? It seems too regular to be accidental.
 
Even with colored wastelands turned on, idk how I feel about the chagtai being given control of the central wasteland here, just because they control the majority of the bordering locations. It creates a long border between the Chagtai and Golden Horde where there was just desert that the Chagtai didn't control, which even for gameplay purposes gives a skewed perspective on the region.

I'd personally prefer if the colouring requirements were a little stricter, perhaps like controlling all, or 90% of bordering locations.

View attachment 1194129
My personal preference is definitely that wastelands should only be filled in when you own ALL the locations that border them. Perhaps it could be an option?
 
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I know there have been people who argued in favor of classifying provinces as mountains or hills not based on height but rather based on how difficult it is to cross the area. There is no better example of why they are at least partially right than the Urals.
The solution to comes to my mind for how to handle this is to make it so that Hills also become impassable during severe winters.
 
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Wikipedia is laughably wrong here. Source: it can't tell whether Mubarak Khwaja or Ilbasan are khan for this period.

Don't trust Wikipedia for anything related to the Khanates. It makes errors all over the place.

The significance of the internal divisions of the Golden Horde aren't significant until the Great Troubles, when the difference between the Orda Ulus and the Batu Ulus (and the Sufids ruling out of Urgench) become relevant.
It kind of makes me uncomfortable not representing it at all. Would it make sense to have it as a very tight personal union?
 
Will the game map be complete or will it be missing pieces like alaska, north of siberia and canada in eu4?
The furthest north we've seen on a map so far AFAIK is ~74°, which includes all of Alaska but cuts off some of the Canadian islands and much of the Tamyr Peninsula. And there are at least ocean locations going that far north (or were some months ago, at least). Whether that's the actual extent of the map we don't know.
 
It kind of makes me uncomfortable not representing it at all. Would it make sense to have it as a very tight personal union?
I feel like, with how the base game is approaching these matters, that it would be best handled as spawned via DHE related to the Great Troubles (along with the Sufids over in Urgench). Unless there's some other system we just don't know about, the game isn't really handling these "internal divisions" any more gracefully than that. We've been hinted at there being some system in place to represent, say, the individual kingdoms within the Crown of Castille, but I suspect that system is likely to be bespoke to Spain.

In my mod, it would be handled with administrative divisions assigned to relevant characters that would then get released as their own states via event.
 
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I feel like, with how the base game is approaching these matters, that it would be best handled as spawned via DHE related to the Great Troubles (along with the Sufids over in Urgench). Unless there's some other system we just don't know about, the game isn't really handling these "internal divisions" any more gracefully than that. We've been hinted at there being some system in place to represent, say, the individual kingdoms within the Crown of Castille, but I suspect that system is likely to be bespoke to Spain.

In my mod, it would be handled with administrative divisions assigned to relevant characters that would then get released as their own states via event.
Yeah fair enough.
 
We are SO back TheodoBro, genuinely how uh... "playable" is our favorite gothic minor? Is it cooked from the start or is there real room for a fun campaign for people who don't know how to ruthlessly exploit the game's systems?
 
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